How deep do you believe?

[DigitalShadow]

Your situation can be rectified, but you cannot come to know God while insisting on using the means that make sense to your mind. That may seem logical to you -- but that matters very little if your GOAL is to come to know God and know that He exists.

That's the problem, my goal is not to come to know THAT God exists, it is to come to know IF God exists. In science your goal is to find out whether something is true, not just to assure yourself of something you already know is true. If my goal were, for example, to know THAT Zeus exists and I were to pray dilligently for years and convince myself that Zeus exists, I'm sure I would have a spiritual experience reaffirming that Zeus does indeed exist. People have religious experiences every day born out of a desire to have them. How do I know this? Because of the multitude of religions out there with conflicting messages and each of them have true believers that felt God tell them their particular church is true.

Many of us are here sharing with you the HOW. And you keep saying, "Well, I'm not so sure about that." Our answer is not going to change no matter how many times you ask the same question.

No, many of the people at this forum are sharing what worked for them (and I do appreciate it). I'm not saying that I'm "not so sure about that." I'm saying that it's not working for me. I'm simply trying to approach religion objectively just as I approach everything else in life. If it is impossible to find religion through objective means, then maybe it is impossible for me to find religion, that doesn't mean I can't try though.

[Hemidakota]

DS are you really sincere in receiving that answer? What changes have you made in your life to become intuned with the Holy Spirit?

[Misshalfway]

DS are you really sincere in receiving that answer? What changes have you made in your life to become intuned with the Holy Spirit?

He is really sincere. So give him a break on that, ok? He is studying and working it out. He just hasn't got an answer yet. It is all good. Patience, my friends.....

[Hemidakota]

How long as it been?

[DigitalShadow]

DS are you really sincere in receiving that answer? What changes have you made in your life to become intuned with the Holy Spirit?

I am sincere that my intuition tells me all religions are wrong. Every time I try to listen, that is the only answer I receive. I go to church with my wife and we are reading through the BoM (although slowly). I was pondering fasting at the suggestion of people here but I haven't arranged that yet.

[DigitalShadow]

How long as it been?

I've been with my wife around a year and a half and I think somewhere around the time we were dating is when I started investigating the church.

[Hemidakota]

DS, how long has it been since you first started to prayer for an answer?

[DigitalShadow]

DS, how long has it been since you first started to prayer for an answer?

Off and on for a year and a half.

[Hemidakota]

Is there anything in your life, you don't need to answer here, that prevents you in receiving an answer?

[DigitalShadow]

Is there anything in your life, you don't need to answer here, that prevents you in receiving an answer?

I don't think there is. My parents taught me to discern what is true for myself, whether that be science, religion, or what have you. I try to keep an open mind at all times.

Edit: I don't think there's anything I've done wrong morally that would prevent me from receiving an answer if that is what you were asking. I like my job, I love my wife, we have fun on the weekends, no major problems between us, I'm pretty satisfied with what all I've been given in life.

[Hemidakota]

In receiving a ‘greater reward’ or 'the pearl of great price', you will need to live accordingly, as if you are a Mission President. It is taking the time in examining your daily behavior; whether or not they are in conformance with GOD. After a self-examination and correction, seek in prayer with great earnest as Enos; never stop until you receive that answer.

I can tell you personally, it works.

[rameumptom]

I don't think there is. My parents taught me to discern what is true for myself, whether that be science, religion, or what have you. I try to keep an open mind at all times.

Edit: I don't think there's anything I've done wrong morally that would prevent me from receiving an answer if that is what you were asking. I like my job, I love my wife, we have fun on the weekends, no major problems between us, I'm pretty satisfied with what all I've been given in life.

Sometimes it is just an issue of waiting on it. Brigham Young was not converted and baptized until after he had studied the gospel for 2 years. Lorenzo Snow related that the strong witness he was searching for did not occur until after he had been a member for a while.

My Catholic uncle attended the LDS Church with his wife for years, supported a son on a mission, etc., but only in his later years received his spiritual witness. Sometimes it is just a matter of keeping an open mind and to continue looking until God is ready to reveal it to us.

Christ taught that those who do the works will know of the doctrine. Sometimes it is a matter of living it for a while, and allowing God to answer in his own time. Since you find it to be a wonderful organization with good things to offer, it shouldn't be tough to continue enjoying it until you receive a witness one way or the other.

[Guest tomk]

I agree with these brethren.

While I received a witness that the Book of Mormon was literally God's word in my teens, it was not for another 20 years that I feel I began to have an actual relationship with Christ. A big part of that change, for me, was that for the first time in my life, I hungered for it (I suppose much like Enos did). I was not left wanting, but it did take some diligence and patience on my part! And when the answer came, it was a still small voice that I easily could have missed.

Keep at it, DS!

[MormonMama]

Our intuitions all tell us different and conflicting things that are suspiciously similar to what we learned growing up and what we have already experienced in our lifetimes which leads me to believe they are simply a product of how we grew up.

Well, if that were the case then I never would have joined the church, nor would my husband. We were both raised in families who view the LDS church as a cult, the work of Satan, etc. In fact, when I began investigating churches years ago I tried very hard to ignore the positive feelings of the Spirit that I was getting about the LDS church, because I had always believed that church was a bad church, not Christian, and I knew that my family would freak if I joined it. But eventually I couldn't ignore what I knew the Spirit was telling me: that this church is true. My husband had a nearly identical experience.

But there have also been times when I was sure the Spirit was telling me to make a choice, only to realize in hindsight that it was my own emotions I was following, that the Spirit was telling me something entirely different and I just wasn't listening well enough. Hindsight is usually 20/20, and sometimes our own emotions and desires do interfere with our interpretation of the Spirit.

Sometimes it is just an issue of waiting on it. Brigham Young was not converted and baptized until after he had studied the gospel for 2 years. Lorenzo Snow related that the strong witness he was searching for did not occur until after he had been a member for a while.

I agree. I first began investigating the church when I was 16 (I even took the missionary discussions at that time). I did not join the church until I was 23. I simply was not ready before then (partly for the reasons I mentioned above).

I have heard of people who are married to members, raise children who go on missions and marry in the temple, etc. and yet do not join the church until very late in life. I like to say that God does not take prisoners. He wants people to come to Him when they are ready and willing, however long that takes. Do not let anyone make you feel rushed. It would be terrible if you joined the church (or any church) only because you felt pressured by others.

[Guest tomk]

Well, if that were the case then I never would have joined the church, nor would my husband. We were both raised in families who view the LDS church as a cult, the work of Satan, etc. In fact, when I began investigating churches years ago I tried very hard to ignore the positive feelings of the Spirit that I was getting about the LDS church, because I had always believed that church was a bad church, not Christian, and I knew that my family would freak if I joined it. But eventually I couldn't ignore what I knew the Spirit was telling me: that this church is true. My husband had a nearly identical experience.

But there have also been times when I was sure the Spirit was telling me to make a choice, only to realize in hindsight that it was my own emotions I was following, that the Spirit was telling me something entirely different and I just wasn't listening well enough. Hindsight is usually 20/20, and sometimes our own emotions and desires do interfere with our interpretation of the Spirit.

I agree. I first began investigating the church when I was 16 (I even took the missionary discussions at that time). I did not join the church until I was 23. I simply was not ready before then (partly for the reasons I mentioned above).

I have heard of people who are married to members, raise children who go on missions and marry in the temple, etc. and yet do not join the church until very late in life. I like to say that God does not take prisoners. He wants people to come to Him when they are ready and willing, however long that takes. Do not let anyone make you feel rushed. It would be terrible if you joined the church (or any church) only because you felt pressured by others.

MormonMama brings up a very important point -- one which I know I have not touched upon very much in all of my anxiety to help DS "see the light" :)

Sometimes it does take time.

It also take real honesty and desire to know God, and on His terms.

When I say we must come to know God on His terms, I am not implying any stubbornness or arrogance or any other imagined unfair or unreasonable restriction. It is simply the way things work. God obeys it because that is the way it works.

We just have to accept that this is the way it is. Trying to fight against it or argue with it or wait for things to change is certainly our perogative -- but it won't change reality.

God is powerful, but even God must obey the rules -- the way the cosmos works. If He had the power to bring us back to Himself and receive of His glory -- don't you think He would have? That was why He sent His Son. That is why the will of the Son was swallowed up in the will of the Father. Without the Father, the Son had power to do none of it.

If God could give us the evidence of "IF" He exists, in a way that would utterly convince us beyond any doubt -- don't you think He would?

Like I said - once we start to understand WHY He chooses not to do things that way -- that is the beginning of our relationship with Him. That is when we begin to understand WHY He does a lot of the things He does that seem unusual to us. These things are a paradox to man, the carnal man, but they resonate with our spirits.

Nobody here has the power to do what God has reserved for Himself. We can talk about it and try to explain it til we're blue in the face, but the witness is between God and yourself. That we can never give you.

As far as to WHY you don't have the evidence of "IF" He exists -- that also is between you and God.

For me -- if the heavens seem silent -- it is usually something I need to start doing or stop doing. Often times, I need to take a few minutes to thank Him for how richly He has blessed me. Sometimes I need to "come clean" about something I have been keeping from Him -- not necessarily a sin -- but keeping a part of my inner self from Him (which is laughable, since He knows it all anyway)

God wants YOU to want a relationship with Him. Pray that prayer that is inside of you. Yell at Him if you have to. Express your frustration and anger with Him for not giving you the smallest witness that He exists! Do what it takes to establish the connection.

God knows you. He knows your heart, and he knows what you are wanting from Him. He knows you want the evidence. He is not withholding because of some twisted "game" He is playing. He is withholding because that is what is best for you right now, even if you don't know it yourself. When you do come to know God, you will look back on this time in your life and realize He dealt with you in love and wisdom.

Even though He already knows what we are going to do, and what we are thinking -- for some reason He still has arranged things so that we must come to Him and tell Him those things that He already knows about.

The reason for this is because the act of doing so puts our hearts in a place where we are humble and searching and wanting to connect with Him. In other words, we are using our agency in an earnest effort to find Him.

Consider the following passages:

13 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they had been naked. And they sewed fig-leaves together and made themselves aprons.

14 And they heard the voice of the Lord God, as they were walking in the garden, in the cool of the day; and Adam and his wife went to hide themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

15 And I, the Lord God, called unto Adam, and said unto him: Where goest thou?

Here is a mystery. Stop and think about this interplay. Can anyone seriously think that the Lord did not already know, in advance of the question, where Adam was headed?

It's laughable.

But still He went ahead and asked anyway!!!!!

Why?

The answer to this is the beginning of coming to know God and why He deals with us the way He does. This relationship with God is for US more than for Him. He is already exalted. He already loves us perfectly. We are the children. We are the ones learning from His example.

So, even though you know God is all powerful, and COULD give you the evidence you seek -- go ahead and seek Him anyway.

16 And he said: I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I beheld that I was naked, and I hid myself.

17 And I, the Lord God, said unto Adam: Who told thee thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, if so thou shouldst surely die?

There God goes again! Asking us questions He already knows the answer to!!!!!!

Why?????

Because He is honoring our CHOICE. He is honoring our agency. He wants to give Adam a chance to answer HONESTLY. Honesty breeds closeness between two people. Honesty is the foundation of any relationship, especially between God and ourselves. He is always honest with us. We are the ones learning to be honest with Him.

18 And the man said: The woman thou gavest me, and commandest that she should remain with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat.

19 And I, the Lord God, said unto the woman: What is this thing which thou hast done? And the woman said: The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

20 And I, the Lord God, said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;

God wants a relationship with you. But He cannot "make" you have a relationship with you. For your part, you cannot feel or be coerced or manipulated or forced in the tiniest way!!!! Because that would violate your agency.

But if you seek God out, THEN He can respond without violating your agency!!! See how that works? He's not violating your agency because YOU are SEEKING the relationship with Him! You are choosing to find Him. THEN He can respond and let you know "Yes, I exist." and your agency is left intact.

That is the "way it works."

[lilered]

Let me start by asking: How would Science answer these questions?

What is the scientific proof that God exists?

For what scientific purpose was man/woman created here on earth?

[Misshalfway]

God didn't mean for spiritual knowledge to be determined by science. There is no part of the Gospel or scriptural writings that invite us to find truth this way. Science is wonderful. And interesting and intellectually stimulating. I love to watch my kids discover their environment. And I love discovering things along side them.

But if any of us is to find truth we have to let go of the need to understand spiritual things with physical proofs. One must go to the intangebles... the spiritual to understand the spiritual.

It is not that hard. We just think it is.

[DigitalShadow]

MormonMama brings up a very important point -- one which I know I have not touched upon very much in all of my anxiety to help DS "see the light" :)

Sometimes it does take time.

It also take real honesty and desire to know God, and on His terms.

When I say we must come to know God on His terms, I am not implying any stubbornness or arrogance or any other imagined unfair or unreasonable restriction. It is simply the way things work. God obeys it because that is the way it works.

We just have to accept that this is the way it is. Trying to fight against it or argue with it or wait for things to change is certainly our perogative -- but it won't change reality.

God is powerful, but even God must obey the rules -- the way the cosmos works. If He had the power to bring us back to Himself and receive of His glory -- don't you think He would have? That was why He sent His Son. That is why the will of the Son was swallowed up in the will of the Father. Without the Father, the Son had power to do none of it.

If God could give us the evidence of "IF" He exists, in a way that would utterly convince us beyond any doubt -- don't you think He would?

Like I said - once we start to understand WHY He chooses not to do things that way -- that is the beginning of our relationship with Him. That is when we begin to understand WHY He does a lot of the things He does that seem unusual to us. These things are a paradox to man, the carnal man, but they resonate with our spirits.

Nobody here has the power to do what God has reserved for Himself. We can talk about it and try to explain it til we're blue in the face, but the witness is between God and yourself. That we can never give you.

As far as to WHY you don't have the evidence of "IF" He exists -- that also is between you and God.

For me -- if the heavens seem silent -- it is usually something I need to start doing or stop doing. Often times, I need to take a few minutes to thank Him for how richly He has blessed me. Sometimes I need to "come clean" about something I have been keeping from Him -- not necessarily a sin -- but keeping a part of my inner self from Him (which is laughable, since He knows it all anyway)

God wants YOU to want a relationship with Him. Pray that prayer that is inside of you. Yell at Him if you have to. Express your frustration and anger with Him for not giving you the smallest witness that He exists! Do what it takes to establish the connection.

God knows you. He knows your heart, and he knows what you are wanting from Him. He knows you want the evidence. He is not withholding because of some twisted "game" He is playing. He is withholding because that is what is best for you right now, even if you don't know it yourself. When you do come to know God, you will look back on this time in your life and realize He dealt with you in love and wisdom.

Even though He already knows what we are going to do, and what we are thinking -- for some reason He still has arranged things so that we must come to Him and tell Him those things that He already knows about.

The reason for this is because the act of doing so puts our hearts in a place where we are humble and searching and wanting to connect with Him. In other words, we are using our agency in an earnest effort to find Him.

Consider the following passages:

13 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they had been naked. And they sewed fig-leaves together and made themselves aprons.

14 And they heard the voice of the Lord God, as they were walking in the garden, in the cool of the day; and Adam and his wife went to hide themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

15 And I, the Lord God, called unto Adam, and said unto him: Where goest thou?

Here is a mystery. Stop and think about this interplay. Can anyone seriously think that the Lord did not already know, in advance of the question, where Adam was headed?

It's laughable.

But still He went ahead and asked anyway!!!!!

Why?

The answer to this is the beginning of coming to know God and why He deals with us the way He does. This relationship with God is for US more than for Him. He is already exalted. He already loves us perfectly. We are the children. We are the ones learning from His example.

So, even though you know God is all powerful, and COULD give you the evidence you seek -- go ahead and seek Him anyway.

16 And he said: I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I beheld that I was naked, and I hid myself.

17 And I, the Lord God, said unto Adam: Who told thee thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, if so thou shouldst surely die?

There God goes again! Asking us questions He already knows the answer to!!!!!!

Why?????

Because He is honoring our CHOICE. He is honoring our agency. He wants to give Adam a chance to answer HONESTLY. Honesty breeds closeness between two people. Honesty is the foundation of any relationship, especially between God and ourselves. He is always honest with us. We are the ones learning to be honest with Him.

18 And the man said: The woman thou gavest me, and commandest that she should remain with me, she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat.

19 And I, the Lord God, said unto the woman: What is this thing which thou hast done? And the woman said: The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

20 And I, the Lord God, said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;

God wants a relationship with you. But He cannot "make" you have a relationship with you. For your part, you cannot feel or be coerced or manipulated or forced in the tiniest way!!!! Because that would violate your agency.

But if you seek God out, THEN He can respond without violating your agency!!! See how that works? He's not violating your agency because YOU are SEEKING the relationship with Him! You are choosing to find Him. THEN He can respond and let you know "Yes, I exist." and your agency is left intact.

That is the "way it works."

I do appreciate your continuing patience with me. I think I understand what you are saying about free agency, but the problem I have is that God won't talk to me when even when I am actively seeking a relationship with Him and it wouldn't violate my free agency. If I am His beloved child, why not give me even the slightest response when I earnestly want a relationship with him? Why must He wait until I have already completely convinced myself that He exists and His voice is indistinguishable from a delusion brought on by my intense NEED for a response.

Another problem I have with "the way it works" is that so many other people earnestly seeking a relationship with God are told by Him that this church is false and their church is true. Why would God let that happen? Why not just talk to these people earnestly seeking Him and straighten them out? Why let them be misled in His name? Have they all just tricked themself into thinking God talks to them, and if so, what makes you so sure that you have not suffered the same fate?

[DigitalShadow]

Let me start by asking: How would Science answer these questions?

What is the scientific proof that God exists?

For what scientific purpose was man/woman created here on earth?

I think you are misunderstanding the scope of science. Science is not meant to be a religion or provide the answers to EVERYTHING, it only seeks to let us better understand the world around us.

[sgallan]

But if you seek God out, THEN He can respond without violating your agency!!! See how that works? He's not violating your agency because YOU are SEEKING the relationship with Him! You are choosing to find Him. THEN He can respond and let you know "Yes, I exist." and your agency is left intact.

That was pretty much the way a nice missionary who came by the the other night put it. My response was, "Even if such a God were to exist I am not really all that interested in knowing Him nor being with Him in eternity".

[Guest tomk]

I do appreciate your continuing patience with me. I think I understand what you are saying about free agency, but the problem I have is that God won't talk to me when even when I am actively seeking a relationship with Him and it wouldn't violate my free agency. If I am His beloved child, why not give me even the slightest response when I earnestly want a relationship with him? Why must He wait until I have already completely convinced myself that He exists and His voice is indistinguishable from a delusion brought on by my intense NEED for a response.

Another problem I have with "the way it works" is that so many other people earnestly seeking a relationship with God are told by Him that this church is false and their church is true. Why would God let that happen? Why not just talk to these people earnestly seeking Him and straighten them out? Why let them be misled in His name? Have they all just tricked themself into thinking God talks to them, and if so, what makes you so sure that you have not suffered the same fate?

I do appreciate your continuing patience with me.

Likewise. :)

I think I understand what you are saying about free agency, but the problem I have is that God won't talk to me when even when I am actively seeking a relationship with Him and it wouldn't violate my free agency.

This is where I continue to be perplexed.

If I knew a kinder, softer way to put this, I would -- but it is almost like you are saying you are the only person on earth who God can't speak to!

If I am His beloved child, why not give me even the slightest response when I earnestly want a relationship with him?

I don't know why it is seemingly different for you. Maybe the problem lies in your expectations. My experience has been different than yours, concerning God's readiness to speak to me.

I have felt things "from" Him -- feelings, and the way they happen, and the timing of it -- that just seems to leave no doubt that He is there.

I contrast those feelings with the way I normally feel -- which is, well, normal. Much of the time I feel -- normal. But when God speaks to me I feel -- an influence. A feeling of peace. Calm assurance. Of comfort. It also takes the form of knowledge and intuition -- "aha" moments!! When these kinds of things happen, they feel like they come from OUTSIDE my natural cognition. That is how I "know" it is God.

If, in the end, this is all a "joke" on me -- then it is the sweetest, kindest, most loving soul-stretching, illuminating "joke" I have ever experienced in my life.

Why must He wait until I have already completely convinced myself that He exists and His voice is indistinguishable from a delusion brought on by my intense NEED for a response?

I don't think He waits until THEN. All He needs (usually) is just a sincere desire to know He is real. He takes it from there.

Another problem I have with "the way it works" is that so many other people earnestly seeking a relationship with God are told by Him that this church is false and their church is true. Why would God let that happen?

I don't know. From my perspective, many people who convert to the LDS faith often come from other religious backgrounds. Perhaps those experiences helped prepare them so that when they were ready to hear the FULL truth -- they were better able to receive it. That may be in God's wisdom. Only He knows. Part of knowing Him is trusting in His judgement. Remember, we're children in His eyes.

Why not just talk to these people earnestly seeking Him and straighten them out?

From my perspective, He has and He does -- when the time is right.

Why let them be misled in His name?

You can see it a lot of different ways. Only He knows the true reasons for why things happen this way. It all comes back to agency and also how we learn best.

This is one reason people are taught the Gospel in the Spirit World. But that teaching is really for those who didn't have a chance to hear it here. Many people have lived and died here on earth without ever finding-out about Jesus Christ or the Atonement. They will be provided every opportunity.

Have they all just tricked themself into thinking God talks to them, and if so, what makes you so sure that you have not suffered the same fate?

At some point -- you just have to make the decision to trust it.

How would you feel if, every morning after brushing her teeth, your wife came to you and said, "I'm not sure if I am really in love with you. I wonder where this feeling is coming from. Maybe I am being deceived."

Why do you trust your wife's love for you? Why does she trust your love?

At some point you have to commit to the relationship and decide that you can trust what you are feeling is right and that it is not made-up. God is no different.

God will and He does bless our efforts to seek Him out. But it does not (necessarily) come in the form of "Hey, get your butt over to the LDS Church and get baptized."

But what He may do, instead, is a series of things that will -- if you continue to receive them with gratitude -- lead you to the truth.

-He may have you read a book on Spirituality.

-Maybe you like the book so much, you go get another one.

-Maybe on one trip to the bookstore, you see a book by an LDS author.

-Curious, you pick it up and read it. Something about the message "feels right" to you.

-You forget about the book for a while.

-Then one day you catch the LDS "General Conference" on TV and you recognize the speaker as the author of the book you read months ago.

-This sparks your interest in the Church

etc.

etc.

Who knows???

God is the one orchestrating it, not me, man. :)

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" [...]

I believe in the shallow end of the pool... while wearing floaties... and an inner-tube... and a life jacket... during a drought.

Maybe one day I’ll get swimming lessons in order to venture into some deeper waters of belief. Thus far though, the swimming instructor hasn't returned my calls. Maybe I'll get Him an answering machine for His birthday; I'm sure He's just busy and St. Peter stinks at passing on messages.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I think you are misunderstanding the scope of science. Science is not meant to be a religion or provide the answers to EVERYTHING, it only seeks to let us better understand the world around us.

I think you are right. However, most people tend to put science over God. "Since, God cannot be proven, He must not exist." People see the works and fruits of Science and think it is super great and everything. However, it cannot replace God as the source of truth and knowledge. And most people will put the discoveries of men first, above those of God. When God is displaced from the Supreme Ruler of the Universe to anything lower, then we have a problem.

[Doctor Steuss]

I think you are right. However, most people tend to put science over God. "Since, God cannot be proven, He must not exist." People see the works and fruits of Science and think it is super great and everything. However, it cannot replace God as the source of truth and knowledge. And most people will put the discoveries of men first, above those of God. When God is displaced from the Supreme Ruler of the Universe to anything lower, then we have a problem.

Modern science (not to be confused with the early science of philosophers) deals with the question of "How?" Religion should focus on the "Why?" IMO, problems occur when people try to mix the two.

Religion = Why G-d does things.

Science = How things are done.

[DigitalShadow]

I think I understand what you are saying about free agency, but the problem I have is that God won't talk to me when even when I am actively seeking a relationship with Him and it wouldn't violate my free agency.

This is where I continue to be perplexed.

If I knew a kinder, softer way to put this, I would -- but it is almost like you are saying you are the only person on earth who God can't speak to!

No, what I am saying is that there are many people like me who earnestly want a relationship with God, some hear God saying Church X is the true church, some hear God saying Chruch Y is the true church and some don't hear God at all. That is what continues to perplex me about the whole idea of a loving God that is capable of talking to those who earnestly want to know Him.

If I am His beloved child, why not give me even the slightest response when I earnestly want a relationship with him?

I don't know why it is seemingly different for you. Maybe the problem lies in your expectations. My experience has been different than yours, concerning God's readiness to speak to me.

I have felt things "from" Him -- feelings, and the way they happen, and the timing of it -- that just seems to leave no doubt that He is there.

I contrast those feelings with the way I normally feel -- which is, well, normal. Much of the time I feel -- normal. But when God speaks to me I feel -- an influence. A feeling of peace. Calm assurance. Of comfort. It also takes the form of knowledge and intuition -- "aha" moments!! When these kinds of things happen, they feel like they come from OUTSIDE my natural cognition. That is how I "know" it is God.

If, in the end, this is all a "joke" on me -- then it is the sweetest, kindest, most loving soul-stretching, illuminating "joke" I have ever experienced in my life.

I am not implying it is any kind of "joke", I am merely pointing out the inconsistancy (as perceived from MY viewpoint) since EVERY religion has people like you who have experienced these wonderful feelings claiming they couldn't be from anyone but God but with a different message. You are essentially saying that all those other people are suffering from some delusion, but it is not possible that it is happening to you.

Why must He wait until I have already completely convinced myself that He exists and His voice is indistinguishable from a delusion brought on by my intense NEED for a response?

I don't think He waits until THEN. All He needs (usually) is just a sincere desire to know He is real. He takes it from there.

I can only speak for certain from my perspective in which I know I have a sincere desire and am getting nothing, but I have known other people who claim to be in my situation as well.

Another problem I have with "the way it works" is that so many other people earnestly seeking a relationship with God are told by Him that this church is false and their church is true. Why would God let that happen?

I don't know. From my perspective, many people who convert to the LDS faith often come from other religious backgrounds. Perhaps those experiences helped prepare them so that when they were ready to hear the FULL truth -- they were better able to receive it. That may be in God's wisdom. Only He knows. Part of knowing Him is trusting in His judgement. Remember, we're children in His eyes.

Why not just talk to these people earnestly seeking Him and straighten them out?

From my perspective, He has and He does -- when the time is right.

But he presumably doesn't for a good majority of the population who are not LDS.

Why let them be misled in His name?

You can see it a lot of different ways. Only He knows the true reasons for why things happen this way. It all comes back to agency and also how we learn best.

This is one reason people are taught the Gospel in the Spirit World. But that teaching is really for those who didn't have a chance to hear it here. Many people have lived and died here on earth without ever finding-out about Jesus Christ or the Atonement. They will be provided every opportunity.

But when people really and truly want to know God, but have never heard of the Gospel, why doesn't God just point them in the right direction in life rather than wait for the spirit world. I don't see how it would violate free agency to direct someone's search in the correct path. You can say that His intentions are beyond are comprehension and that might be enough for you and many other people, but that explaination just doesn't work for me no matter how many times I hear it.

Have they all just tricked themself into thinking God talks to them, and if so, what makes you so sure that you have not suffered the same fate?

At some point -- you just have to make the decision to trust it.

Not necessarily.

How would you feel if, every morning after brushing her teeth, your wife came to you and said, "I'm not sure if I am really in love with you. I wonder where this feeling is coming from. Maybe I am being deceived."

Why do you trust your wife's love for you? Why does she trust your love?

At some point you have to commit to the relationship and decide that you can trust what you are feeling is right and that it is not made-up. God is no different.

My wife shows me that she loves me through her actions, and she showed me her love with her actions long before I committed to a marry her, is that so much to ask from God?

God will and He does bless our efforts to seek Him out. But it does not (necessarily) come in the form of "Hey, get your butt over to the LDS Church and get baptized."

But what He may do, instead, is a series of things that will -- if you continue to receive them with gratitude -- lead you to the truth.

-He may have you read a book on Spirituality.

-Maybe you like the book so much, you go get another one.

-Maybe on one trip to the bookstore, you see a book by an LDS author.

-Curious, you pick it up and read it. Something about the message "feels right" to you.

-You forget about the book for a while.

-Then one day you catch the LDS "General Conference" on TV and you recognize the speaker as the author of the book you read months ago.

-This sparks your interest in the Church

etc.

etc.

Who knows???

If these events were from God and He knows exactly what it would take to get people interested in the church, why would He only do it for some people and not all?

God is the one orchestrating it, not me, man. :)

I've already taken up these complaints with God, still waiting on a response :)