How deep do you believe?

[Guest tomk]

No, what I am saying is that there are many people like me who earnestly want a relationship with God, some hear God saying Church X is the true church, some hear God saying Chruch Y is the true church and some don't hear God at all. That is what continues to perplex me about the whole idea of a loving God that is capable of talking to those who earnestly want to know Him.

I am not implying it is any kind of "joke", I am merely pointing out the inconsistancy (as perceived from MY viewpoint) since EVERY religion has people like you who have experienced these wonderful feelings claiming they couldn't be from anyone but God but with a different message. You are essentially saying that all those other people are suffering from some delusion, but it is not possible that it is happening to you.

I can only speak for certain from my perspective in which I know I have a sincere desire and am getting nothing, but I have known other people who claim to be in my situation as well.

But he presumably doesn't for a good majority of the population who are not LDS.

But when people really and truly want to know God, but have never heard of the Gospel, why doesn't God just point them in the right direction in life rather than wait for the spirit world. I don't see how it would violate free agency to direct someone's search in the correct path. You can say that His intentions are beyond are comprehension and that might be enough for you and many other people, but that explaination just doesn't work for me no matter how many times I hear it.

Not necessarily.

My wife shows me that she loves me through her actions, and she showed me her love with her actions long before I committed to a marry her, is that so much to ask from God?

If these events were from God and He knows exactly what it would take to get people interested in the church, why would He only do it for some people and not all?

I've already taken up these complaints with God, still waiting on a response :)

We keep going in circles, here.

God looks upon the heart. I just have to keep coming back to that.

He'll respond when conditions are right. But what that means for you I have no idea. Like I said before, usually I either have to stop doing something or start doing something to clear the "communication lines" between myself and God. If I am really wanting an answer I usually don't have long to wait to find-out what it is.

But it's never God's fault, it's mine. Putting the blame on God gets me nowhere.

[skalenfehl]

Perhaps I can shed a little light into your barriers of communication with the Lord:

I'll start off by saying that I like to think that I've got an open mind. I'm not a member, but I'm not from another religion either. I have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. I've been investigating the historical aspects of BoM lately at the urging of my wife and neighbors.

-You have no vested interest in the BoM being true or false. You're not interested either way? Really?

-You've investigated only from a historical aspect at

-urging of your wife and neighbors.

The Lord knows our hearts and He knows if we would submit ourselves to Him in humility and fervent supplication after having sincerely poured over and pondered His evidence spiritually. You cannot do this for your wife or your neighbor or anybody else. You can only do this for yourself, for your soul, for your salvation.

I'm only going to submit that you may not have fully applied Moroni 10:3-5 or for that matter, James 1:5-6 whether to know what is true or even if there is a God in Heaven. I'm only speculating, but this has been the case many times before with others who have investigated the church, or the existence of God. Please read carefully the following scriptures.

Moro. 10: 3-5

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

James 1: 5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

This may all be old news to you, but I don't know if you have truly and sincerely read the Book of Mormon and pondered the words that the prophets are trying to say to you personally. They literally wrote everything for your eyes and my eyes. You need to read their "letters" to you. Note what they're trying to teach you and ponder it. Some people read a few verses and some read the entire book through before they feel like it is to them that the prophets have been writing. They were not trying to prove to you that they existed or where their lands were or what kind of civilization they built, etc. They were trying with all their hearts to reach out to you personally and to share their testimonies and their witnesses to you. That is what you need to wrap your heart around. Once you begin to feel them and hear their voices and their pleadings then you can ponder those things in your heart and begin to see the great things that God has done for us as Moroni described.

Then you can begin to see and appreciate and marvel at the infinite love that Christ has for us and that He was willing to lay down His life for you and for me. You can begin to then feel His love for you and Him reaching out to you. It will then begin to fill your soul and you will be drawn to it. You will want more of that joy and that love in your heart. That is the point that Father in Heaven will answer you because then He will know your heart and will know that you are truly ready to "come follow Him". You will be ready to leave your old life and begin a new life. You will want to be baptized, you will want to have fellowship with the Lord and with His church. You will want to be a part of something this wonderful and share it with everyone and with your wife and be married to her in the temple for all time and eternity. You will want that infinite joy that only Father in Heaven can fill you with. You will never thirst again.

That is the difference between really testing the Lord, really wanting it versus having no vested interest in the Book of Mormon being true or not or having a historical interest. Your quest is one of the utmost commitment to see your journey to the very end. That is where the prize awaits.

[lilered]

It still boils down to basics. Science and Religion are not complete opposites, however they are not necessarily always bedfellows. In order to believe in Religion and God, one has to have a certain amount of faith which is not based on fact but on the premise that God gives to all men/women the power to know right from wrong, truth from untruth, good from evil. From these basic truths, ones faith and spirit can be nurtured and grow to include other precepts. Another basic truth or belief is that we did not just appear here on earth to live for our life for no other reason or purpose but to just exist for a brief period of time and then die. The end. There has to be a basic belief that there has to be more to life and a greater purpose than that.

[DapperDan]

He'll respond when conditions are right. But what that means for you I have no idea. Like I said before, usually I either have to stop doing something or start doing something to clear the "communication lines" between myself and God. If I am really wanting an answer I usually don't have long to wait to find-out what it is.

But it's never God's fault, it's mine. Putting the blame on God gets me nowhere.

I actually don't think DS has unclear communication lines with God at all. It's a more than a little presumptuous to infer that he doesn't. I actually think that DS is truly seeking and just because God doesn't happen to be telling him that your church is the right one for him doesn't mean they aren't talking.

[ztodd]

I actually don't think DS has unclear communication lines with God at all. It's a more than a little presumptuous to infer that he doesn't. I actually think that DS is truly seeking and just because God doesn't happen to be telling him that your church is the right one for him doesn't mean they aren't talking.

We all have unclear communication lines with God in regard to things that we are not prepared for. There are things I've prayed and asked God about that He hasn't answered yet... I take that to mean that I need to prepare myself a little more and keep asking him until I get an answer. Or until I realize the way that He is trying to answer me and I'm just not getting it...

DS, maybe in a way the church isn't right for you right now.. maybe you're not ready quite yet, not fully prepared to receive it. Ask yourself, how much would it take for you to be convinced that God really is speaking to you? If you got what you felt might be an answer to your prayers, how soon would you start to doubt the feeling that you got? How prepared and ready are you to accept the answer that God will give you, and how faithful will you be to that answer without trying to cast it out because of your doubt?

You can do it DS- everyone can do it, with God's help- can get to the point where you are ready to receive the witness, and not cast it out.

[ztodd]

No, what I am saying is that there are many people like me who earnestly want a relationship with God, some hear God saying Church X is the true church, some hear God saying Chruch Y is the true church and some don't hear God at all. That is what continues to perplex me about the whole idea of a loving God that is capable of talking to those who earnestly want to know Him.

I am not implying it is any kind of "joke", I am merely pointing out the inconsistancy (as perceived from MY viewpoint) since EVERY religion has people like you who have experienced these wonderful feelings claiming they couldn't be from anyone but God but with a different message. You are essentially saying that all those other people are suffering from some delusion, but it is not possible that it is happening to you.

God leads us to truth- the reasons people seem to get different answers, or to be led to different churches, vary... perhaps God is leading them to as much truth as they are prepared for.

We might demand of God to know which church is the "best" one, or the "truest" one, but we might not all be ready for that answer, to receive that witness. It doesn't mean God doesn't love us all the same, it just means that our ways our not His ways. He is wiser than we are and knows what is best for us at each point in our lives when we are seeking.

What we ask for when we pray is part of what determines the answers that we get. Most churches do not make the same claim that we make, that they are the "only true and living" church, the only one with true priesthood authority direct from God. In my experience, most churches rather claim that restored priesthood authority direct from God is not necessary. They claim that the only "authority" you need is a desire to follow God.

So if they don't make the same claim that the LDS make, they probably don't ask their members to ask God if they are the true church. Now I'm sure that many of the people in those other churches do pray about whether the church they go to is the right one for them... that's my point actually- that they might not be asking the right questions. They might be "settling" for what they have, and not have much desire to look for more. That's not to condemn them or say they aren't doing to best they can- it's just that they don't know that there's more out there.

I can only speak for certain from my perspective in which I know I have a sincere desire and am getting nothing, but I have known other people who claim to be in my situation as well.

I don't know why you haven't received your answer yet, all I can say is that I hope you keep trying and don't give up. Perhaps there's something you need to learn or experience first.

But when people really and truly want to know God, but have never heard of the Gospel, why doesn't God just point them in the right direction in life rather than wait for the spirit world. I don't see how it would violate free agency to direct someone's search in the correct path. You can say that His intentions are beyond are comprehension and that might be enough for you and many other people, but that explaination just doesn't work for me no matter how many times I hear it.

If that explanation doesn't work for you, then you might not be prepared- it sounds like you probably need to work on your faith a little more. Faith precedes the miracle, DS. Normally you won't get an answer from God until you have exercised a little faith.

How about all those who, because of their political circumstances, never could have had any opportunity during their life to know about Jesus Christ? Why would God allow that to happen? Although it might make other LDS members cringe, perhaps there are other purposes of this life other than coming to know Christ and being able to join the true church. That being said, it is definitely important to take the opportunity, if you have it, to do it now, and open up the way for yourself for further spiritual progression.

My wife shows me that she loves me through her actions, and she showed me her love with her actions long before I committed to a marry her, is that so much to ask from God?

God has done so much for you and for all of us- please open up your heart and mind and recognize that. He has given us everything. Listen to that voice inside of you telling you that He is there and that He loves you.

Do you have children? If so, I'm sure you love them very much. But that doesn't mean you always give them everything they ask for. Sometimes they need to experience something for themselves so that they truly learn.

If these events were from God and He knows exactly what it would take to get people interested in the church, why would He only do it for some people and not all?

I don't know- but part of it I'm sure is that everyone is at a different level spiritually, so some are prepared for the gospel and some are not.

Added: And of course we all have our freedom to choose whether we will follow spiritual promptings or not. Yes, God knows what it would take to get us interested, but I'm certain that it's not his whole goal just to get us interested. His plan is not to trick us into anything, or to give away the answers. Rather I believe it is to test us.

I've already taken up these complaints with God, still waiting on a response :)

I can almost picture you sitting back, waiting, with your arms folded and a grin on your face, saying, "Ok God, I asked you- now I'm waiting for the answer. Well?"

I mean no disrespect- I mean, this is how I am sometimes too. But I've got to remember that we were put here to learn and grow and experience things on our own, and seek and seek and seek for the truth. Even after we've gained a witness by the Spirit and entered into the church by baptism, there is still much to learn and much to do. There are still more spiritual experiences to be had, stronger testimonies to be gained.

Also, don't think that a testimony will necessarily come all at once to you. The Lord will teach us line upon line, as long we keep our hearts open and humble and ready to learn.

[Guest tomk]

I actually don't think DS has unclear communication lines with God at all. It's a more than a little presumptuous to infer that he doesn't. I actually think that DS is truly seeking and just because God doesn't happen to be telling him that your church is the right one for him doesn't mean they aren't talking.

DS openly admits he is agnostic.

[skalenfehl]

DS, pm sent.

[rameumptom]

DS,

Another thing to consider, is perhaps God has answered you, at least to some level. Sometimes we just don't realize it. The BoM mentions that some Lamanites were converted by the Holy Spirit, but did not realize the change that was occurring with them. I exactly know that, as I was greatly moved upon by the Spirit in my first encounter with an LDS bishop (talking with him in his office prior to playing on the ward's basketball team with my LDS friend). It moved me to agree to attend Church on Sundays and cut my hair (1975, long hair was definitely in). But it was a long time later that I realized that the experience that moved me in the bishop's office was the Spirit.

Perhaps we sometimes need to look at what God has already done in our lives, to see if it hasn't been pointing us in a certain direction....

[MormonMama]

...the problem I have is that God won't talk to me when even when I am actively seeking a relationship with Him and it wouldn't violate my free agency. If I am His beloved child, why not give me even the slightest response when I earnestly want a relationship with him? Why must He wait until I have already completely convinced myself that He exists and His voice is indistinguishable from a delusion brought on by my intense NEED for a response.

Is it possible that you are simply not recognizing God's responses to you? I know there have been many times where I felt like God was not responding to me, only to realize in retrospect that He did and I just didn't see it. It reminds me of the email that goes around sometimes, something like, "I asked God for a miracle and he made a flower bloom." I don't recall the rest of it, but it was basically about how easy it is for us to overlook God's messages to us, because they aren't the messages we are expecting to get.

[Guest tomk]

Is it possible that you are simply not recognizing God's responses to you? I know there have been many times where I felt like God was not responding to me, only to realize in retrospect that He did and I just didn't see it. It reminds me of the email that goes around sometimes, something like, "I asked God for a miracle and he made a flower bloom." I don't recall the rest of it, but it was basically about how easy it is for us to overlook God's messages to us, because they aren't the messages we are expecting to get.

DS's complaint has been "Well, why doesn't He make it obvious to me?"

Answer: We don't know why. That is between you and God. All we can do is talk about what WE know to be true. We can only tell you how God has chosen to respond to us. We don't know your situation or what God has planned for you.

[MormonMama]

God leads us to truth- the reasons people seem to get different answers, or to be led to different churches, vary... perhaps God is leading them to as much truth as they are prepared for.

I just wanted to say that I think your entire post was excellent overall. Line upon line, precept upon precept. We are not all at the same place spiritually, and we are promised that the Lord will never give us more than we can handle. I believe that goes for things of the spirit as well.

We also need to remember that life does not end at death. Some people may truly never be ready for certain things in this life, but that does not mean they won't be ready later on, after this life. Heavenly Father knows what is best for each of us and he will not force any of us into anything. He will patiently give us only what we are prepared to receive. It is up to us to accept what He gives us.

[DigitalShadow]

DS's complaint has been "Well, why doesn't He make it obvious to me?"

Answer: We don't know why. That is between you and God. All we can do is talk about what WE know to be true. We can only tell you how God has chosen to respond to us. We don't know your situation or what God has planned for you.

Actually my complaint is "Why doesn't He at least make himself known to me and why does He allow so many other people to be misled in His name?"

[DapperDan]

Actually my complaint is "Why doesn't He at least make himself known to me and why does He allow so many other people to be misled in His name?"

This would actually make for two really good threads separately.

1. Why doesn't God make himself known to me?

2. Why does God allow so many to be mislead in His name?

Although there is a curious intersection in this that only you could analyze - are you concerned that you are one of the ones being mislead, therefore it is hard to accept any "so called" communication from God. It would cause one to be very cautious - to the point of a standstill if this fear were deep-seeded enough.

Again, this is just a thought, not really meant to be my own reading of your soul. I believe in your struggle. Have had similar ones myself. Hang in there.

[skalenfehl]

Actually my complaint is "Why doesn't He at least make himself known to me and why does He allow so many other people to be misled in His name?"

But He is making Himself known to you even now. We are here testifying to you. I think you already have some of that light.

But generally speaking because man has that agency. Man chose to crucify Christ, the source of all truth and knowledge, but the wicked take the truth to be hard. Man chose to alter the Bible and deny the common man access to it for 1500 years. Man chose to use God and religion to oppress.

All the while, though, God has been working to bring our salvation to pass. As Isaiah prophesied of a marvelous work and a wonder, so it came to pass. We have the restored truth through Joseph Smith, the first prophet since Peter in the New Testament.

He allows people to choose to find the truth or allow themselves to be misled. But He is there to teach us and reveal His truths to us line upon line, precept upon precept; a little at a time so that we can understand it and accept it in our hearts.

[DigitalShadow]

This would actually make for two really good threads separately.

1. Why doesn't God make himself known to me?

2. Why does God allow so many to be mislead in His name?

Although there is a curious intersection in this that only you could analyze - are you concerned that you are one of the ones being mislead, therefore it is hard to accept any "so called" communication from God. It would cause one to be very cautious - to the point of a standstill if this fear were deep-seeded enough.

Again, this is just a thought, not really meant to be my own reading of your soul. I believe in your struggle. Have had similar ones myself. Hang in there.

I think I might make those threads. This one has become quite derailed, but I still want to discuss the ideas that were brought up here. Those two questions seems to be the biggest obsticles in my acceptance of any Gospel, so I will investigate them further seperately.

[DapperDan]

I really do see how the two ideas come into play with each other. But if we talked about why God allows so many to be mislead in His name and came to a solid answer on that - it may remove one of the obstacles to God making himself known to you. Again, just a thought.

[skalenfehl]

I think I might make those threads. This one has become quite derailed...

I contributed to that. I apologize.

[Guest tomk]

Actually my complaint is "Why doesn't He at least make himself known to me and why does He allow so many other people to be misled in His name?"

Why doesn't He at least make himself known to me?

We have no way of knowing. My experience has been much different.

Why does He allow so many other people to be misled in His name?

Blaming Him will get you nowhere. And I don't think that is what He is doing -- that is just one way of interpreting it. Because of the Fall, we come to a lot of goofy conclusions about God and why He does things - most of them are bogus. That is why we need the Gift of the Holy Ghost to guide us.

[DigitalShadow]

I contributed to that. I apologize.

I contributed more than anyone to this thread being derailed because it led to so many side discussions that I was genuinely interested in, but I think that now I will split those discussions so that other people might join in and we can keep focus on a particular topic per thread.

[Hemidakota]

DS, without being in your presence, analyzing your daily personal habits, and perhaps some personal details, to determine what and why, only you can answer that one.

[rameumptom]

Each and every one of us has had times when we felt God was not answering our questions or pleas.

President Joseph F. Smith had a daughter die in infancy, and he pondered and prayed on it for over 50 years. Two weeks before he died, he received the answer from the Lord, in what we now have as D&C 138.

God has declared that we are to walk by faith in this life. There is no other way for us to become like Him, except that we choose for ourselves our daily walk. He inspires us along the way, if we allow Him to do so. But he leaves all of us with unanswered questions. Often it is simply because he wishes for us to learn certain things from the experience of walking in the darkness by faith.

At the same time, He has prepared a plan of happiness that will afford all His children a good opportunity to hear and embrace as much or as little of the gospel as they see fit to embrace. As in D&C 138, many will learn the gospel details in the Spirit World and have that opportunity. The object being that we all need to walk by faith, sometimes alone, in order to develop our spiritual selves. Even Jesus exclaimed, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" in anguish from that somber step into darkness before his own triumph over death.

Faith means taking what you believe today, or hope/desire to believe in, and patiently allowing God to reveal to you in His own time whether it is true or false. Sometimes it is a spiritual, burning in the bosom witness. But often the answers come in what seem to be normal ways. A friend of mine that I shared the gospel with, was at his second job one night. He couldn't find his keys, and so said, "God, if the LDS Church is true, let my keys be right there...." and he pointed. There where he pointed was his keys. He looked astonished and wondered if it was just a coincidence, or if God had truly answered him. With more experiences, he found that God had answered him.

Another individual I met on my mission had seen an angel, and that angel had testified to him of the Book of Mormon. Yet he never joined the Church, because he was so wrapped up in UFO theories that he didn't stop to ponder the things that were of most importance.

And as I've noted before, some people take years of seeking before a strong witness comes their way.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks Rameumptom. I just remember that David O Mcay, took many years in the church to have his conviction answered. I guess, to sum it up, it came about when he was called as a General Authority.

[ZenWarrior]

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why?

Hi DigitalShadow, I've read through some, but not all, of the posts on this thread and would like to share my views.

First though I'd like to state that I don't question your motives for asking these questions, or judge you negatively for so doing. You seem, from what I have read, to be very honest and sincere; it comes through in your post and I admire that. You ask some excellent questions. Here are my thoughts.

The question of "how deep do I believe the Book of Mormon" got me thinking about the long (and still ongoing) process of introspection, study, prayer and self-analysis that I've done to understand the truthfulness of the book. "Do I just want to believe?" Do I believe because my parents told me so?" "Do I believe so that I find acceptance within the Church?" All these questions, and others, I have wrestled with at some time or another. However, through studying the principles and teaching in the Book of Mormon I have felt a great power come into my life. Many times I have felt that my understanding opened up concerning the principles of the Gospel and my understanding of myself. I have felt at times overwhelming feelings of pure joy and love for others and a sincere motivation to better myself and become more Christ-like. It wasn't a sudden change for me; rather it was gradual. Piece by piece a solid foundation has been built, to the point now where I can truly say that I know the principles taught in the Book of Mormon are true. As Christ said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17). So it is by doing that we receive a testimony and through my own experience I have found Jesus' statement to be accurate.

The next part of your question is about whether anything could convince me that the Book of Mormon was not true. I think there are several elements to my answer of this question. First, as I alluded to above, there is nothing that could convince me that the principles taught in the Book of Mormon are false. Even if God appeared to me and said they were false principles I wouldn't accept it. That may sound absurd. But if that actually happened then God would be telling me that to care for others, to repent of my mistakes and sins, to inspire the best in mankind, to be humble, virtuous and loving are all false principles. I think my brain would melt down. Secondly, there are some things that could cause me to re-examine my assumptions about the Book of Mormon. An interesting point here is that up until recently many members of the Church assumed that the Nephites and Lamanites were the primary ancestors of the American Indians, however, in light of new DNA evidence many have been compelled to question that assumption. It doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is false, only that we had an incorrect assumption about what it was telling us. Current thinking is that the Nephites and Lamanites were among the ancestors of the native American but that other significant races were also involved. Of course, if we're cynical, we could call it back pedalling but I don't see it that way.

I guess if God appeared to me, and I was certain he was the true God and not some impostor, and he told me I was on the wrong path, then I would say, 'sorry, I really thought I was on the right track, please tell me what is the right way'. I would then listen and try to understand. However, if the principles I received were based on anything less than compassion and love for mankind and creation, then I would not accept them, and I suppose I would have to take whatever punishment that was given to me.

Well, I hope all that makes some sense to you and that it helps you understand where I'm coming from. Good luck with your efforts and studies and I hope you find something of value for you by understanding and applying the principles of the Gospel in your life.

[rameumptom]

Hi DigitalShadow, I've read through some, but not all, of the posts on this thread and would like to share my views.

....

Secondly, there are some things that could cause me to re-examine my assumptions about the Book of Mormon. An interesting point here is that up until recently many members of the Church assumed that the Nephites and Lamanites were the primary ancestors of the American Indians, however, in light of new DNA evidence many have been compelled to question that assumption. It doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is false, only that we had an incorrect assumption about what it was telling us. Current thinking is that the Nephites and Lamanites were among the ancestors of the native American but that other significant races were also involved. Of course, if we're cynical, we could call it back pedalling but I don't see it that way.

Actually the concepts of a Limited Geographical Model for the Book of Mormon and that the Nephites/Lamanites are a minor DNA contributor to the Native American gene pool has been around for decades - long before any DNA tests were done.

I've believed in a limited geography since the 1980s, when I started studying the ideas and comparing them with the internal textual clues in the Book of Mormon.

I do believe, as the Book of Mormon does, in a cultural adoption into the Nephite and Lamanite lines. Nephites adopted the Ammonites, Mulekites, Zoramites and others into their lineal tribe. Lamanites quickly adopted Nephite dissenters into their lines. And who knows how many other Native American groups they may have encountered and absorbed along the way.

So, I do believe that the Lamanites/Nephites are primary cultural ancestors of the American Indian, because that is what the Book of Mormon text tells us.