How deep do you believe?

[DigitalShadow]

Indeed. Fasting is an outward exercise of faith based on the principle of sacrifice and humility. That would help as well and bring your closer.

Hadn't really thought of that, how would one go about it? Just stop eating completely? I'm assuming you still drink water regularly? Seems like there may be health ramifcations if done improperly, I don't know, I've never looked into it.

Any links on safe fasting practices would be appreciated.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I've never known anyone raised atheist who later joined a religion

I have. In fact I've known a few. One particularly strikes me as all his life he had been totally anti-religion. He was a communist and militant shop-steward in an engineering factory. He was known as 'red Mac'. In his later years he read the Book of Mormon and his depth of understanding amazed me.

How deep is my faith? Deep enough to say that I don't believe it could ever be proved that the events in the Book of Mormon didn't take place. I know they did. I know that it is true.

[skalenfehl]

Fasting in our faith is the act of going without food or beverage for two meanls/24 hours. Members who fast use the money for which they would have subsisted for those two meals and donate them to the church as a fast offering. You don't have to donate and fasting is not unhealthy if you don't have some kind of pre-existing health issue like diabetes, etc.

LDS.org - Fast

LDS.org - Liahona Article - "Help Thou Mine Unbelief"

[Guest tomk]

I have asked the Lord and received nothing. Rather than just assuming no one is there, I'm giving the church the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the Lord to respond in His own time. Are you suggesting there is more than I can/should do, and if so, what?

Edit: Before you ask, I already am reading the BoM and going to church weekly with my wife.

That would be enough for the Lord to let you know the truth of these things. The only thing that might get in the way is -- what is in your heart while you do these things. I know people who go to Church and read their scriptures and still are no closer to having a relationship with the Lord than they were 30 years ago (I was one of those people).

[Misshalfway]

Fasting 101. Designate some time where your schedule is free. Like a couple of days. Time you can dedicate to the effort. Skip two meals. I usually start after dinner on Sat and end my fast with dinner on Sun. Start your fast with a prayer. Start with gratitude. Give thanks for what you feel are your blessings. Discuss with the Lord your needs, wants, desires, etc. Ask him to bless you with faith to guide your efforts in finding the very answer you posted. Ask God to tell you he is there and to confirm your path. Pour out your heart and soul. Empty the tank. Dedicate the next hours to study, pondering, and more prayer. Relax and enjoy your the experience. It may help to dedicate some time to someone else. Visit an elderly person and listen to their old stories. Some quiet exercise focused on someone else. Exercise whatever faith your have. Put doubts and logic and skepticism to the side. End your fast with prayer. I don't always get my answers during this period or even right after. I find it prepares me for future answers. Leave the timing of the answers to the Lord.

Then rinse and repeat. :) Fasting once a month will deepen your devoted search. It may help to do a scripture search on fasting. Get the doctrine in your head. It may help to include your wife in the fast. Or maybe you want to fly solo on this one. I do know that when people fast together for a single purpose, the power of the request increases.

[skalenfehl]

There was a man in the Book of Mormon who was a king over all the land who was taught by a disciple named Aaron. The king knew nothing of God or of the gospel:

Alma 22:15-18

15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.

17 And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying:

18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day...

The Lord answered him in a profound way but I'll let you read the chapter. The point is this man, who had no belief in God was willing to take that leap into the unknown.

[lilered]

DS.

Four questions for your response.

Have you ever or are you now praying to God for an answer to your questions concerning him and the right church?

In your mind, where did you come from prior to being born?

Why are you here on earth now?

and

Were do you think you will go once you die ?

[Alaskagain]

To answer your original question, I believe very deeply. If a panel of scientists or other wise/educated/reputable men came to me with what appeared to them to be incontrovertable proof that the Book of Mormon was a false document, or that there was no God, or that Moses of the Bible never existed, I am very sure I would tell them they were mistaken.

I have been blessed with a sure knowledge of these things. I am grateful for that knowledge, and for the trials which have made me more aware of and have confirmed that knowledge. That knowledge is more than a "feeling" or emotional response; it is more than an intellectual state. It is knowledge that encompasses my whole being in a way that no other fact or emotion can.

I do not know why some are required to work very hard to obtain answers to their questions regarding spiritual things. Although full and complete answers are never truly easy to obtain, some aspects of the answers come easily to some people.

Perhaps it is because we are all unique individuals. You asked at one point "why do so many different people have different spiritual knowledge revealed to them as the truth?"

My personal view is that people receive the answers they are ready to receive. Everyone is in a different "place", or on a different track. Everyone learns at a different pace.

Many people receive a personal confirmation that a concept is true. They can take that concept and grow with it, and continue to seek and find more truth, or they can hold on to that one concept, satisfied that they have all the truth they need. Someone might bring them another concept as truth, and they will say, "It conflicts with the truth I already have." When in actuality, the second concept is reached by using the first as a building block. And among those of the first group who continue to seek, many reach certain truths at a different speed or depth than their neighbor, and stop along the way to nurse one or the other of a particular concept, for various reasons.

DS, you are reading, you are going to church, you are loving your wife and supportive of her in her religion. You are on a good track.

It seems sometimes that you are impatient for an answer. Fasting is a great idea. Many religions across the world use fasting as a spiritual exercise. Is, then, the concept of fasting a universal truth (or tool) in obtaining spiritual growth and recognizing spiritual things?

I am confident that you will receive answers, perhaps even in unexpected ways.

What is most important is that all of us keep seeking humbly to add to our spiritual knowledge. (We have a phrase, "line upon line" . . . :))

Reading through your thread has humbled me this evening. Thank you for starting it.

[skalenfehl]

Just a point of interest. There have been many, many times that I have questioned myself, not the Lord mind you, but myself, whether or not some of my choices in life were the right ones. I have always relied on the Lord for guidance and there have been times that my answers were just subtle enough to grasp. It is those subtle answers that I have really struggled to recognize sometimes.

Then there have been the very few times in my life that answers have come so powerfully and so strong that there was absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it was an answer. The best way I can compare this to is thus: One day when it's cloudy you think you might have felt a rain drop but you weren't sure so you looked up and held your hand out. After a few moments you felt another drop on your hand and when you pulled your hand in, sure enough there was a drop. The Lord is that subtle sometimes.

The few times that I have felt the spirit so strong were personal life changing experiences for me. I'm sure you've seen on tv where a football coach gets drenched with a 5 gallon cooler of gatorade? He gets drenched for half a second. Well imagine getting drenched for much more than half a second. Imagine getting drenched for a minute or two.

The subtle answers can be felt if you hearken and the powerful answers drop you to your knees or keep you there. In life we tend to forget the things that don't really impact our lives much, but sometimes there are experiences that impact our lives so much that they are ingrained in our hearts and minds forever. Whenever I have wondered (note I didn't say doubt) about one choice I made in my life many years ago I am reminded of that most powerful experience and how well it has remained with me. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I made the correct choice and that experience served to reinforce that choice indefinitely.

I think that Father in Heaven's answers come to us in the degree that it needs to impact our lives. DigitalShadow, I suspect that when you finally reach that point where the Lord sees fit to have an impact on yours you will be blown away. I mean that in a good way and I rejoice for that moment. Honestly.

Onward and upward.

[lilered]

Jesus himself taught in his native Nazareth; but hearing they heard not, and it profited them nothing.

The call to listen is every bit as important as the call to speak or teach. Sometimes for all of us, we are so busy, we take the time to pray, but don't take the time to listen for the Spirits subtle promptings.

[prisonchaplain]

What I do want to discuss here is the question of "how deep do you believe?" Is there anything that could convince you that the BoM is not true? If so, what? If not, why? I'll give a couple hypothetical examples to elaborate on the question. If there were convincing scientific evidence (convincing to you, whatever that may take) that the BoM did not happen, would it change any of your beliefs? If a machine were invented that allowed you to view events that happened thousands of years ago and you found out there was no trace of the Nephites or Lamanites in the Americas, would that change any of your beliefs? Why or why not? At what point does faith simply not cut it for you in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Many people I've encountered say that they have faith and that nothing could sway them from it. Perhaps I just don't understand because I can't fathom believing anything with unquestioning certainty, but I would really like to hear the opinions of people here.

I'll answer this by applying the question to the Bible, rather than the BoM. Since this is Easter Sunday (Resurrection Day for purists), I go with the words of the Apostle Paul, who said that if Jesus is not raised from the dead then we are liars and to be pitied more than all others. In other words, I believe that my belief is in the one true and living God. If it could be proven that Jesus did not raise from the dead, and thus that the New Testament was wrong, of course it would require a dramatic change in my spiritual beliefs.

Having said that, experiencing what I have spiritually, I can say with as much certainty as personal experience and testimony can carry, that such will not happen. Various scientific disciplines may be able to raise doubts about certain stories in the Bible, but to prove that they episodes did not happen at all--that's a tall order--probably impossible with today's technology.

[ztodd]

I have asked the Lord and received nothing. Rather than just assuming no one is there, I'm giving the church the benefit of the doubt and waiting for the Lord to respond in His own time. Are you suggesting there is more than I can/should do, and if so, what?

Edit: Before you ask, I already am reading the BoM and going to church weekly with my wife.

There's actually a lot more you can be doing. We can all be doing a lot more.

Compare the Book of Mormon with the Bible by following the footnotes. Thinks of ways you can apply what you learn in the Book of Mormon to your own life. Then go ahead and apply them. Then pay attention to how you feel after doing so.

I have a thought about trusting feelings - you already trust your feelings to guide you - everyone does. We all do what we feel will bring us happiness, peace, comfort, and joy. That's our nature. There's no reason to deny it. Even when we say we are following our logic instead of our feelings, we are really still doing what we feel is right. And if we felt wrong about something that seems logical, we would explore other logical options to try to match up better with what we feel. All human beings do that. That's my opinion on that. :)

[DigitalShadow]

Have you ever or are you now praying to God for an answer to your questions concerning him and the right church?

I have

In your mind, where did you come from prior to being born?

I think my consciousness developed as the neural pathways grew while I was in my mother's womb. I don't really think I was anywhere before I was born.

Why are you here on earth now?

I don't know, maybe no reason, maybe that is for us to figure out, but I'm glad I am here.

Were do you think you will go once you die ?

Either into nothingness, or to the end place of whichever religion "got it right."

[Guest tomk]

What are some things you have learned about the LDS faith that "feel good" to you?

What doctrines "make sense" to you?

[DigitalShadow]

That would be enough for the Lord to let you know the truth of these things. The only thing that might get in the way is -- what is in your heart while you do these things. I know people who go to Church and read their scriptures and still are no closer to having a relationship with the Lord than they were 30 years ago (I was one of those people).

The only thing that is in my heart is an honest searching for the truth. If you say that my heart must unquestioningly believe before I will receive answers, then I say it is impossible for me. Unfortunately my heart is as skeptical as my mind, it wants to feel evidence before it will believe, just as my mind wants to see evidence.

[DigitalShadow]

What are some things you have learned about the LDS faith that "feel good" to you?

What doctrines "make sense" to you?

The fact that you believe people who don't believe in your religion don't simply go straight to hell when they die. I would have to say that the tiered afterlife makes the most sense to me of all the religions. I also like that the church encourages learning aside from just the spiritual and embracing science (maybe not all the members, but the general message from the church does at least).

In general, the LDS faith makes the most sense to me of any religion, but still the idea that none of them are right makes more sense to me.

[Guest tomk]

The fact that you believe people who don't believe in your religion don't simply go straight to hell when they die. I would have to say that the tiered afterlife makes the most sense to me of all the religions. I also like that the church encourages learning aside from just the spiritual and embracing science (maybe not all the members, but the general message from the church does at least).

In general, the LDS faith makes the most sense to me of any religion, but still the idea that none of them are right makes more sense to me.

I think it would be more accurate to say that people who won't follow Christ will not be with him in the eternities. Why would they be? Would you expect to live with God if you don't even believe that He exists and you haven't tried to get to know Him and have a relationship with Him?

It will be your choice, and everyone, including you, will be given a fair chance to do this with full knowledge of what they are doing. My only concern is -- is that happening now -- or are you not accountable?

What other doctrines make sense to you, beside our concept of degrees of glory?

[DigitalShadow]

It will be your choice, and everyone, including you, will be given a fair chance to do this with full knowledge of what they are doing. My only concern is -- is that happening now -- or are you not accountable?

Given that I haven't seen or felt any evidence that would distinguish this church from any of the other churches aside from it making a bit more logical sense, I hardly see how that would be a fair chance with full knowledge. Please don't go the route of many other churches take by trying to scare me into belief with false condemnations, I've heard that before many times.

What other doctrines make sense to you, beside our concept of degrees of glory?

The idea that if God were to send down His only begotten son, He would visit other places as well makes sense as well.

[Guest tomk]

Given that I haven't seen or felt any evidence that would distinguish this church from any of the other churches aside from it making a bit more logical sense, I hardly see how that would be a fair chance with full knowledge. Please don't go the route of many other churches take by trying to scare me into belief with false condemnations, I've heard that before many times.

I'm not trying to scare you. I just don't want you to "sleep through class" as it were, during your mortality. It's between you and God. I am trying to invite and entice you to search out God and stop being so concerned about being misled. By refusing to seek Him out, but instead waiting for Him to give you evidence, you are being deceived anyway!! Your fears are coming to pass by your inaction.

The idea that if God were to send down His only begotten son, He would visit other places as well makes sense as well.

That's great. That is one of the most potent truths in the Book of Mormon. That God speaks to man. (hint hint

[Guest tomk]

What did He teach when He visited these "other places" ????

[DigitalShadow]

I'm not trying to scare you. I just don't want you to "sleep through class" as it were, during your mortality. It's between you and God. I am trying to invite and entice you to search out God and stop being so concerned about being misled. By refusing to seek Him out, but instead waiting for Him to give you evidence, you are being deceived anyway!! Your fears are coming to pass by your inaction.

I think you are misunderstanding, I am not refusing to seek him out, if that were the case I wouldn't be here discussing with you. Let's recap. I'm seeking knowledge of God, you're telling me "He's right here! don't you see!" and I'm saying "No, sorry, I can't see or feel anything different" and then you say "You're refusing to seek him out!"

I'm not being held back by a fear of being mislead, I'm being held back because I just don't feel what you all are feeling. I don't know why, and I really wish I could, but I simply can't. I'm taking the steps, learning as much as I can about various religions, but I still don't FEEL God anywhere.

[Guest tomk]

Ahhhh....okay.

Thank you for putting up with me. Honestly, I do want to help you.

Please forgive me. Sometimes I do feel a bit "exasperated" in these discussions. It really does seem "so clear to me" but I have to remember that everyone is different.

I have times, too, when I don't feel anything from God. During those times, I try to remember the times when He has spoken to me. That helps me to weather the "silence" so to speak. Eventually the communication lines do open back up again. In my case, it has been because I have neglected to be diligent in some area of my life that is needful. God's silence is sort of His way of getting my attention. When I come to Him, with "full purpose of heart" He has always responded.

A book that may help you is:

Amazon.com: Following the Light of Christ into His Presence: John M. Pontius: Books

This book teaches that the "evidence" that God is trying to give us has a progression.

The progression goes like this:

1) The Light of Christ is given to EVERY man. This is our conscience. It is administered unto us by the Holy Ghost. It is what gives us our basic sense of right and wrong. It is how we recognize truth when we are exposed to it. It is how we know that we have done something wrong. We can refuse to listen to it. If it is denied and neglected enough, we can pretty much extinguish it. The reverse is true. If we follow our conscience, we are led to greater and greater truth. We have choice, but our power to choose IS impacted by the weight of our choices over a lifetime.

2) Those who are baptized by proper priesthood authority, receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is more powerful than the Light of Christ. It expands what began as our conscience. The Gift of the Holy Ghost speaks the words of Christ unto us. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is what allows us to mature in our relationship with Christ and become more like Him (a process called sanctification).

The Book does a better job of explaining this than I ever could, but one of the core concepts is OBEYING WHAT WE FEEL IS RIGHT. This is not the same thing as "doing what feels good" -- for many things that feel good are offensive to God. It is in following what FEELS GOOD to our conscience -- following that Light of Christ which lights every man that comes into the world, that is how we begin to know God.

This is something we must cultivate.

The only point of discussion that baffles me is your belief that you have never felt this before. This flys in the face of what I believe. I believe that every person is capapble of knowing right from wrong. Every person is able to detect TRUTH. God does speak to you. He is no respecter of persons. He does not love one person more than another. So if we cannot feel His response when we are seeking it, the problem must be on OUR END.

Instead of condemning you for not being able to feel God speaking to you -- which does nothing to help you -- I would like to help you find a way to recognize how God is already speaking to you. For I assure you He is. His Voice is like a radio station that is broadcasting 24 hours a day. We just have to tune-in.

Here is an example of how it "feels" to have God speak to you:

Galations 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

-love

-joy

-peace

-longsuffering

-gentleness

-goodness

-faith

-meekness

-temperance

Can you identify times in your life when you have felt any of the above?

If you have, that is God speaking to you in some form.

[Misshalfway]

Hey DS, How you doing today?

[rameumptom]

Another key is found in Alma 32. When we begin with a desire to believe, and study the word, we can begin a spiritual test. We plant the word in our hearts, if we feed and nurture it, and if it is a good seed, it will begin to grow.

How does it grow? It swells in our bosom (heart/emotion), it enlightens our understanding (mind), it expands our soul (spirit), and it becomes "delicious" to us. These 4 events should begin to occur for the sincere and true seeker.

Alma then tells us to continue nourishing the seed and not cast it out, so that it can continue to grow, until it matures and bears full fruit.

[DigitalShadow]

The only point of discussion that baffles me is your belief that you have never felt this before. This flys in the face of what I believe. I believe that every person is capapble of knowing right from wrong. Every person is able to detect TRUTH. God does speak to you. He is no respecter of persons. He does not love one person more than another. So if we cannot feel His response when we are seeking it, the problem must be on OUR END.

And the part of your belief that baffles me is that God is omnipotent, and he speaks to everyone, and if we are seeking to talk to Him and not feeling a response it is somehow on "our end." How can it be on "our end" if God created us and should know exactly what is needed for us to at least "hear" Him?

Here is an example of how it "feels" to have God speak to you:

...

-love

-joy

-peace

-longsuffering

-gentleness

-goodness

-faith

-meekness

-temperance

Can you identify times in your life when you have felt any of the above?

I have experienced all of those except faith. Those are well documented human experiences that are as old as language itself though. I'm not sure that in itself convinces me God is communicating with me or at least trying.