Brother's Keeper

[Moksha]

I just read this line from Robert McElvaine's book, Grand Theft Jesus.

The real spirit of Jesus is reflected in the motto of Father Flanagan’s Boys Town, “He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.” But the Jesusless Lite Christians prefer such aphorisms as “pull your own weight” and “pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” (Try the latter sometime. You’ll find that it’s a physical impossibility.) When it comes to helping others, their likely response is, “He’s heavy, and he ain’t my brother!”

This got me thinking: I have always subscribed to the belief that we should help take care of one another. It is after all part of the greatest commandment.

What say ye?

[Misshalfway]

I think that we should always be willing to help another. But to do for another what he can do for himself is a disservice. I think sometimes we get confused about what is our responsibility and what is not. Balance is the key. I call it care taking vs. caring for. The BofM mentions administering to the needs of others according to their needs and wants. I also love the welfare principles on this one. I also think that our modern culture sometimes teaches us to be so individualistic. I don't think this is a principle of Christianity. We must have personal responsibility .... balanced with our responsibility for others. The two live together. We want to help .... not weaken each other.

[Canuck Mormon]

Give a man a fish - he eats for a day

Teach a man to fish - he eats for a lifetime

There's a fine line between helping someone and enabling someone. I think it varies with each case. This is why I do not give street people change, I would rather buy them a sandwich or a meal.

We are to help our fellow man, but not carry them the whole way.

Clear as mud?

[lilered]

We are responsible for each other, not so much as our brother’s keeper, but as brothers/sisters who “willing to bear one another’s burdens” and “comfort those that stand in need of comfort.

One can not do this in a vacuum. We must make every effort to watch for opportunities in and out of the church to fulfill our responsiblities. IMHO

One of the great tragedies of life occurs when a church member (sheep or lamb) who has come to Christ then drifts away from the church (sheepfold of God).

[havejoy]

Give a hand up, not a hand out.

[Misshalfway]

We are responsible for each other, not so much as our brother’s keeper, but as brothers/sisters who “willing to bear one another’s burdens” and “comfort those that stand in need of comfort.

One can not do this in a vacuum. We must make every effort to watch for opportunities in and out of the church to fulfill our responsiblities. IMHO

One of the great tragedies of life occurs when a church member (sheep or lamb) who has come to Christ then drifts away from the church (sheepfold of God).

The only thing worse would be someone who drifts from the church and no one notices.

[Hemidakota]

Wasn't that Cain's answer to GOD "...Am I my brother's keeper?"

[Elphaba]

I have no way of knowing if a person, asking for a handout, is going to use it for liquor or baby diapers, or even both. And it's none of my business.

If I have it, I will give it, and wish him/her good luck.

Elphaba

[WANDERER]

Giving is something you do without considering a return. Otherwise it isn't very giving.

I don't think there is such a concept as 'useless' giving.

But what if they use the money to buy drugs etc...the act itself is the blessing...that people cared, kindness exists...not the actual thing. The fruits of the spirit are incorruptible.

Anyway, that's my understanding of it.

[Alaskagain]

Money never even entered the equation for me, when thinking about the OP.

Helping to take care of others requires so much more than money. It requires time and emotional energy invested in the other person.

It is befriending someone, sharing their problems, looking for possible solutions, uplifting them, giving them hope, letting them know you care what happens to them. Everyone needs to feel they matter.

A simple smile, handshake, or hug is more important than money and can make a difference in the day of a despairing brother or sister.

[lilered]

The only thing worse would be someone who drifts from the church and no one notices.

Excellent point, I fear this happens in wards throughout the church much more than realized. I don't think there is a week goes by that I don't think about someone in the ward that I haven't seen for a bit and start to wondering why. Sometimes I act on these thoughts and make an effort to call them or stop by, but other times, I fail, then feel guilty.

Most of us have periods in our life where we might be prone to drift and simply need a borrowed light or helping hand until we can sustain ourselves.

[VisionOfLehi]

Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

We SHOULD help "take care" of one another. How do you love someone if you're not doing what you can to improve their situation when you have a way to do it?

People have brought up stuff as donations being used for drugs/alcohol. I also think about certain debt, like gambling, when on this topic.

If you decide that the only way you can love someone is by some some magnificent feat just giving them cash... And what they might spend it on is questionable, then I think you have a duty of love to not give them cash. If you love them, you want to improve their situation... And giving them cash that'll wasted and make problems worse or just continue them... It's obviously not an improvement.

I have no way of knowing if a person, asking for a handout, is going to use it for liquor or baby diapers, or even both. And it's none of my business.

...

Elphaba

I heartedly disagree. A little more time spent and you can find out what they need, and help them acquire that, rather than just forking over money.

Mosiah 4:

26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

While you might be able to construe "administering temporally" as "giving money," the following verse does say that it should all be done in wisdom. Giving a handout without a thought about what it will be used for just does not seem very wise.

[DapperDan]

VoL,

"Luke 6:29

...and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also..."

does this sound like he's thinking really heavily about where that coat is going?

[Elphaba]

Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him,

<snip>That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

You can quote scriptures until carrots start growing out of your ears, but it won’t make any difference to me. I am an atheist.

We SHOULD help "take care" of one another. How do you love someone if you're not doing what you can to improve their situation when you have a way to do it?

Since you seem to be an expert on what “We” should do, please let me know how YOU are “taking care” of one another, including these human beings you wouldn‘t give a handout to?

Are you out there loving everyone and improving their situations? No? Chop chop!

People have brought up stuff as donations being used for drugs alcohol. I also think about certain debt, like gambling, when on this topic.

People? What people? And so what if they did? If I choose to give a fellow human being a couple of bucks, it is mine to give, and it is then his.

If you decide that the only way you can love someone is by some some magnificent feat just giving them cash

Lehi, look up the word hyperbole in the dictionary. Then re-read this sentence you wrote. I never said anything close to what you wrote.

what they might spend it on is questionable, then I think you have a duty of love to not give them cash.

Well, then, isn’t a good thing it’s my money to spend as I choose, and not yours.

If you love them, you want to improve their situation...

Who said anything about loving the person? You are mixing love with compassion.

I see a human being who has asked me for a couple of bucks, and I feel compassion, great compassion. So, if I have it, I give it.

But I do not love this person. I don’t even know the person. However, my compassion for this person is great, and if I have a couple of bucks, my compassion is why I give it.

My compassion is also why I believe it is none of my business what the person does with my money. It is now HIS money. But I do not love the person, and I am not going to pretend it is otherwise.

And giving them cash that'll wasted and make problems worse or just continue them... It's obviously not an improvement.

So? It’s not my job to make an improvement in anyone’s life and I am under no illusions that it is.

If someone came to me asking for help, and I thought he/she was sincere, I have a lot of resources I could guide that person to. But without that conviction, I am not obligated to solve someone’s life’s problems.

I heartedly disagree.

Guess what? You get to heartedly disagree.

A little more time spent and you can find out what they need, and help them acquire that, rather than just forking over money.

Then get your bum out there and practice what you preach.

Elphaba

[WANDERER]

I'm not into moral superiority: aka giving with a heart of superiority to the person that you are helping.

I've heard plenty of stories of how people have helped other people and then they go and spend their money on "whatever they think they don't need" mumble,mumble, mumble. Okay maybe you aren't going to gnaw your heart over their purchase of takeout or cable television...even if it's stuff you do without. But they might spend their next welfare check on alcohol or stuff you really don't approve of..how will you know and are you still responsible a fortnight later? Not giving cash makes no difference at all. The problem isn't created by money. Or haven't you figured that out yet?

Yes, large charities practice the non-monetary handout...it's to avoid direct legal consequences and attribution. This is wisdom of a sort.

[Elgama]

part of loving someone is to give without expectation of thanks - if I give someone a gift or a present what they do with it is up to them, so if someone I give money chooses to spend it on a non essential then thats upto them - just sometimes when you are down the non essential gets you through the day, having spent only 2 months squatting in a building in February with no electricity and only food was dried pea soup I am not about to begrudge someone anything I even understand the need for drink and drugs if you are on the streets then tiredness is the worst thing

I love this Herman Melville quote think it sums up my feelings

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity, nothing exceeds the criticisms made of the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed."

-Charley

[VisionOfLehi]

Atheist or not there's 2000 years of history involving the Bible, at LEAST, and more when including the Old Testament, and at the very least anyone of any intelligence can realize that the precepts therein are goodly, in the fact that those who practice them DO bring peace and contentment to tho practitioners and others. "I'm an atheist," is a sad excuse for ignoring them.

You also seem to have taken my post as just geared towards you, and I can see why, but it wasn't meant just for you, other than the line directly following the quote form you.

Anyway, I don't see how just giving out a few bucks like that is just compassion. Seems more like a cop out, trying to buy peace of conscience.

[Elphaba]

"I'm an atheist," is a sad excuse for ignoring them.

And a circular argument is a lazy debate device. Just a FYI for the future.

You also seem to have taken my post as just geared towards you, and I can see why, but it wasn't meant just for you, other than the line directly following the quote form you.

I see that now. I'm sorry I responded to paragraphs that weren't directed at me.

Anyway, I don't see how just giving out a few bucks like that is just compassion.

Of course you don't.

Seems more like a cop out, trying to buy peace of conscience.

Let me try to explain it to you on more time.

You assume that in your in your acts of caring for others, the person you have helped is going to change.

In fact, that person has no obligation to you whatsoever--but you think she does. And if she doesn’t change, you are going to be disappointed in her.

You’ve already said it: How do you love someone if you're not doing what you can to improve their situation when you have a way to do it?

That’s not compassion. That is YOU creating YOUR own reactions, of what will make YOU feel good, so that YOU can feel better about YOURSELF if it works out. And if it doesn’t, there is every likelihood YOU would blame the person for not doing things YOUR way.

Compassion is simply the active expression of acceptance for the world and people just as they are. It entails a state of mind where there is no judgment about a situation or a person.

True compassion is being able to look at a person, who asks for a handout, with no expectations whatever. If my handout helps the person to make a better life for herself, that’s a good thing but if it doesn’t, I don’t care, because she is a human being who deserves dignity just as she is in the moment. I do not believe you or anyone else on the planet is any more deserving than she is.

Obviously this is not a black and white issue, and there always going to be exceptions. If you see someone who you sense would like to talk or needs some more help, go for it. Or if someone is in critical need, of course you would them. Obviously this is not a black and white issue, and there are always going to be exceptions, far too many than I can write down.

As far as the Bible is concerned, even though your intellect is far superior to mine, I do recall that in those same 2000 years of history, there were also great atrocities performed at God’s command (especially to women and children). So, while there are many inspiring stories, there is also much carnage, etc., Since that is not the focus of the thread, I’ll leave it at that.

Back to the point of the post, Of course, if someone does come to you and asks for your help that is a very different thing. And there is nothing wrong with asking someone if they need help if you want to. The problem is assuming your help will automatically be not only wanted, but will in fact change a person’s life. And if that doesn’t happen, you will feel disappointed, or anger at the person who didn’t appreciate your help in the way you expected.

Once you can give with no judgments and no expectations, then you will understand how to give with compassion.

And by the way, I am nowhere CLOSE to practicing what I preach. I am as flawed as anyone.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

Anyway, I don't see how just giving out a few bucks like that is just compassion. Seems more like a cop out, trying to buy peace of conscience.

I like to imagine whose face is really represented on the side of the "least of me". However, I do know the importance of doing "unto the least of me".

Buying a little peace of conscience? Priceless.

[VisionOfLehi]

I see that now. I'm sorry I responded to paragraphs that weren't directed at me.

You should be.

Of course you don't.

Circular argument (supposedly) is no good, but copious amounts of sarcasm is an awesome tool for debate. I get it now.

You assume that in your in your acts of caring for others, the person you have helped is going to change.

I do? That's funny, I didn't realize that. Thank you for telling me what I think. It helps wonders.

In fact, that person has no obligation to you whatsoever--but you think she does. And if she doesn’t change, you are going to be disappointed in her.

OH, that's right! Sorry, I forgot that's what I believe, again. Silly me. What would I do without you?

You’ve already said it: How do you love someone if you're not doing what you can to improve their situation when you have a way to do it?

That’s not compassion. That is YOU creating YOUR own reactions, of what will make YOU feel good, so that YOU can feel better about YOURSELF if it works out. And if it doesn’t, there is every likelihood YOU would blame the person for not doing things YOUR way.

I WOULD do what would make me feel good. Now, not that I've ever seen a homeless person that smells like booze, but it definitely would make me feel good to take them to a restaurant and buy them a nutritious meal that giving them potential booze money.

I can't believe I'm so callous and lacking compassion. I'm such a terrible person

Compassion is simply the active expression of acceptance for the world and people just as they are. It entails a state of mind where there is no judgment about a situation or a person.

True compassion is being able to look at a person, who asks for a handout, with no expectations whatever. If my handout helps the person to make a better life for herself, that’s a good thing but if it doesn’t, I don’t care, because she is a human being who deserves dignity just as she is in the moment. I do not believe you or anyone else on the planet is any more deserving than she is.

Really? Because I thought by the very nature of the word (i.e. the definition), it was the desire to alleviate the suffering of others. "If it doesn't, I don't care" doesn't seem to match up with that.

As far as the Bible is concerned, even though your intellect is far superior to mine, I do recall that in those same 2000 years of history, there were also great atrocities performed at God’s command (especially to women and children). So, while there are many inspiring stories, there is also much carnage, etc., Since that is not the focus of the thread, I’ll leave it at that.

I knew you'd go for that angle as soon as I posted it. (Not accusing you, I'm just saying I realize that there's a lot of negative stuff in there, too.) But I was talking about the teachings. 10 Commandments, Psalms, lot's of other things. I don't think you find atrocities in the NT. (Though I've not been through the whole thing. )

Back to the point of the post...

And if that doesn’t happen, you will feel disappointed, or anger at the person who didn’t appreciate your help in the way you expected.

That's the catch, there. If they waste the money, I've not helped them in any way. So I'm not disappointed that they didn't appreciate it, I just realize I didn't actually help them.

And by the way, I am nowhere CLOSE to practicing what I preach. I am as flawed as anyone.

Neither am I. All talk I've been feeling a strong lack of service lately. :/

P.S. Not in any way angry or anything. I rather enjoy the discussion like this.

That said, I've had my fill of being sarcastic for the day, lol.

[Misshalfway]

Money never even entered the equation for me, when thinking about the OP.

Helping to take care of others requires so much more than money. It requires time and emotional energy invested in the other person.

It is befriending someone, sharing their problems, looking for possible solutions, uplifting them, giving them hope, letting them know you care what happens to them. Everyone needs to feel they matter.

A simple smile, handshake, or hug is more important than money and can make a difference in the day of a despairing brother or sister.

I have to second this! I have been the recipient of much service in my life time. I have learned that anyone can make a dinner and drop it by. But it is so much more of a gift when it is given with something from within. That emotional or personal investment in someone else. The giving of hope or comfort. I think perhaps there is a difference between true giving and doing dutiful actions in order to look compassionate.

Sometimes the answer is money..... resources so a person can regain self reliance. But I think that what you refer to here is a higher law and deeper sense of charity. I appreciate you sharing it.

[WillowTheWhisp]

This got me thinking: I have always subscribed to the belief that we should help take care of one another. It is after all part of the greatest commandment.

What say ye?

I'm going to say "we" because Moksha said "we" in the opening post.

I believe we do have a responsibility to help others. Some of us are more able to do that than others. I remember once when I used to visit a lady who was housebound and quite often too ill to get out of bed. We would go in the morning to make sure she had breakfast and then again in the evening to make sure she had a meal. Someone else would call in mid day.

She didn't have much, but then neither did her mid day visitor, but at Christmas he made her some Christmas decorations out of the offcuts from milk bottle tops (He was a diary farmer) and they looked so beautiful.

This lady also did a great deal for us because stopping to talk to her lifted my day.

I do not like to give money to beggars reeking of alcohol because I really don't think it does them any favours. I don't really think we are being our brother's keeper when we assist them to get deeper into a mess. I would gladly give them something useful or feed them though.