Girls removed from FLDS ranch in texas.

[bcguy]

Okay I was watching cnn the other day when a news flash anouncing the removal of girls taken away from one of Warren Jeffs compounds. Now I am a little confused why were the girls taken away in a First Baptist Church Bus? There must be a reason. Is this the same church that is a breakoff of the original mormon organization 175 years ago?

[Moksha]

Okay I was watching CNN the other day when a news flash announcing the removal of girls taken away from one of Warren Jeffs compounds. Now I am a little confused why were the girls taken away in a First Baptist Church Bus? There must be a reason. Is this the same church that is a break off of the original Mormon organization 175 years ago?

I think they broke away much later than that. Perhaps sometime after the second manifesto when they were trying to get Reed Smoot seated in Congress, and polygamy was still an embarrassing practice.

As to why the First Baptist bus, perhaps it was available.

[Fiannan]

An unpopular religious sect in Texas? Good thing Janet Reno wasn't in charge -- we know what the feds did to all those children in Waco!

[Aphrodite]

The break away group of the church was known as the reformed Church, but is now known as the Community of Christ.

[Moksha]

From the New York Times:

52 Girls Are Taken From Polygamist Sect’s Ranch in Texas

By RALPH BLUMENTHAL

Published: April 5, 2008

HOUSTON — Responding to an accusation of sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl, Texas enforcement officers and child welfare investigators raided a West Texas ranch founded by the convicted polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs and removed 52 children, officials said Friday.

The authorities escorted buses on Friday from the West Texas ranch founded by Warren Jeffs, a convicted polygamist sect leader. All were girls. Eighteen of the children, ages 6 months to 17 years, were believed to have been abused or at risk of abuse and were placed in foster care by Child Protective Services, said Darrell Azar, communications manager for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services. Thirty-four were taken to a nearby civic center for questioning, Mr. Azar said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05jeffs.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

[skippy740]

The break away group of the church was known as the reformed Church, but is now known as the Community of Christ.

To be completely fair, the Community of Christ was previously known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" or RLDS.

Community of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The FLDS group with Warren Jeffs is the "Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kona0197]

I heard President Hinckley say that there is no such thing as a fundamentalist Mormon. Contradiction of terms or something like that...

[michaela]

I heard President Hinckley say that there is no such thing as a fundamentalist Mormon. Contradiction of terms or something like that...

Maybe Warren Jeffs didn't get that memo!

I do apologize, I just couldn't resist! Since the FLDS doesn't recognize the authority of the LDS, and vice versa, they can call themselves whatever they want. They do want to set themselves apart from the LDS, considering themselves to be much closer to the beliefs of the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

michaela

[kona0197]

Personally I couldn't handle more than one wife.

[NeuroTypical]

To be completely fair, the Community of Christ was previously known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" or RLDS.

The FLDS group with Warren Jeffs is the "Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".

Whew - thanks for making that clarification skippy! The CoC folks are nice people and deserve a lot better than to be mistaken for the child abusers in TX.

LM

[prisonchaplain]

An unpopular religious sect in Texas? Good thing Janet Reno wasn't in charge -- we know what the feds did to all those children in Waco!

The aftermath report concluded that the fire was deliberate set by members of the Branch Davidian group. So, what is it exactly that you think the feds did to all those children?

[Fiannan]

The aftermath report concluded that the fire was deliberate set by members of the Branch Davidian group. So, what is it exactly that you think the feds did to all those children?

Sorry, that was the official whitewash from the government. Consider this:

DECLARATION OF RICHARD L. SHERROW

INTRODUCTION

My name is RICHARD L. SHERROW and am President of RICHARD L. SHERROW and Associates in Mesa, Arizona. I am a former Fire and Explosion Investigator with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, United States Department of Treasury, and retired as a Senior Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician from the United States Army.

I have more than thirty years experience as an explosives and arson investigator, have been involved in over 40 major fire investigations, and have qualified as an expert witness in federal and state court in 18 states. In addition to arson, fire and explosion expertise, I have served as a Staff Instructor at both the U.S. Army Chemical Center and School and Redstone Arsenal and have been a technical writer and instructor in the use of chemical and biological weapons, including riot control agents.

In addition, I have received training from the BATF, FBI, U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force, DuPont and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC). I have attended the Ohio Fire Academy and the National Fire Academy (NFA). I am also a graduate of the Police Academy at Jacksonville State University, Jacksonville, Alabama. I am a past member of the International Association of Bomb Technicians (IABTI).

I have made a preliminary investigation into the cause, origin, nature and growth of the fire which consumed the Mount Carmel Center near Waco, Texas, on April 19, 1993, and where members of the Branch Davidian religion perished as a result of said fire. This preliminary investigation was based upon the Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) video, still photographs extracted from the FLIR, still photographs taken from the air and from the ground during the fire, broadcast news video, videography taken by a private investigator while the government was in control of the Mount Carmel Center, signed statements and interviews of Branch Davidians who survived the fire, official reports and case notes of federal and state law enforcement agents, the reports of the United States' fire investigators (namely Paul Gray and James Quiontere) and from my own personal inspection of the fire site. Based upon this preliminary investigation, I am able to conclude, within my professional opinion, that it is consistent with this evidence that the fire originated from a single point and spread throughout the Mount Carmel structure. It is also consistent with evidence that the original fire was started by a M728 CEV striking the southeast corner tower of Mount Carmel. These conclusions are as consistent with the evidence as the conclusions reached in the Gray and Quientere reports and they are in direct contravention to conclusions reached in the Gray and Quientere reports.

You can read commentary here:

Waco Fire Report [Free Republic]

[prisonchaplain]

I find it curious that you consider the after-action report a whitewash. Perhaps you could be more specific? What is it that you are accusing the federal government of doing to the children of the Branch Davidian compound? Do you think it was intentional--that government wanted to burn up children? I don't want to read between the lines, but your cryptic post seemed to suggest that the federal government seeks to burn up the babies and children of unpopular religious groups.

[Fiannan]

I find it curious that you consider the after-action report a whitewash. Perhaps you could be more specific? What is it that you are accusing the federal government of doing to the children of the Branch Davidian compound? Do you think it was intentional--that government wanted to burn up children? I don't want to read between the lines, but your cryptic post seemed to suggest that the federal government seeks to burn up the babies and children of unpopular religious groups.

No, not really. There were a lot of egos involved all the way up to Fieldmarshal Reno. What should have been a relatively easy apprehension of a guy on weapons charges (which could then have allowed authorities to check on the validity of any child abuse cases) it turned into a standoff that would have embarassed Chinese authorities. At the same time we sent men ill-equipped to Somolia there were scores of highly armed federal agents and even armored vehicles. Come on...this was a joke that showed at least the incompetence of the fieldmarshal if not her ultimate overlord in the whole fiasco.

The results speak for themselves -- dozens of innocent people dead. And it wasn't the only case -- look at the murder of that guy's wife and son by federal agents in Idaho. The policies at that time speak for themselves.

[prisonchaplain]

It's incredibly easy to find errors in a big operation like Waco, after the fact. And, I'm sure some of the criticism is justified. On the other hand, there were illegal weapons on that compound, and the allegations of child abuse were substantive enough to warrant investigation. The children were innocent, but it's grossly unfair, imho, to suggest that the government, a particular agency, or a particular political party's policies killed them. The parents were seduced by a religious leader who's apocalyptic notions led to illegal, paranoia-enducing standoff. Further, I doubt the allegation that the government intentionally white-washed this report. I'll let the experts write the technical reports and critiques...but intentionally lying in such a report is not only wrong, it would be criminal...a truly dangerous game that most agencies and personnel would not engage in.

[Fiannan]

It's incredibly easy to find errors in a big operation like Waco, after the fact. And, I'm sure some of the criticism is justified. On the other hand, there were illegal weapons on that compound, and the allegations of child abuse were substantive enough to warrant investigation. The children were innocent, but it's grossly unfair, imho, to suggest that the government, a particular agency, or a particular political party's policies killed them. The parents were seduced by a religious leader who's apocalyptic notions led to illegal, paranoia-enducing standoff. Further, I doubt the allegation that the government intentionally white-washed this report. I'll let the experts write the technical reports and critiques...but intentionally lying in such a report is not only wrong, it would be criminal...a truly dangerous game that most agencies and personnel would not engage in.

The government lied? Oh Heaven's, not the grand US government! The government never lied about a little thing like the Golf of Tonkin -- I mean, that could have gotten us into a big war in Asia and cost us 58,000 men. No, our government never lies.

Oh, and the US government never lied about "accidentelly" blowing up the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during "Operation Stained Dress", did it?

Fieldmarshal Reno did not have to use the force she did to go after Koresh. Did the government use this kind of force in regards to the polygamist sect last week? No. A standoff was set up by the "Keystone Cops" of the US government and Reno was getting tired of this story blazing across the TV every night on the news. That's why force was finally used.

Also, to blame the victims of Waco is kinda like a friend of mine who I was traveling with who said "Hey, these monks who started the protests against China...I mean, you make a stink with the Chinese government and you get what you deserve!". Kinda the same concept in regards to Waco.

[Dirk]

Texas seems to be a problem state! While viewing this on the five am news I nearly choked when I heard the church likes to be called Mormons officially?? I am trying to get hold of the news piece to make absolutely sure I heard correctly

[prisonchaplain]

The government lied? Oh Heaven's, not the grand US government!

Fiannan, surely you are better than such sarcasm. Politicians stretch the truth all the time. But, investigators doing an after-action report are generally quite brutal. Results might be spinned, but those details had better be pretty accurate, or retirements can be lost, and prison sentences can result.

Fieldmarshal Reno did not have to use the force she did to go after Koresh. Did the government use this kind of force in regards to the polygamist sect last week? No. A standoff was set up by the "Keystone Cops" of the US government and Reno was getting tired of this story blazing across the TV every night on the news. That's why force was finally used.

I'd suggest humbly that you are grossly oversimplifying the case. Each scenario will have its own dynamics. While there is some science, explosive personalities, religion, paranoia, unknown dynamics inside the compound...and quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the group did not indeed set those fires--or at least have piles of flammables throughout the compound. You do recall Jim Jones, don't you?

Also, to blame the victims of Waco

You're serious? You consider the members of this religious sect, stock-piling illegal weapons, possibly molesting children, to be victims of the U.S. government, and not their own delusions, and those of their leader?

[Moksha]

Fox News has the number of women and children removed at around 400. I am wondering if the Fox News use of the word Mormon in talking about these people, is a reflection on their politics.

[Fiannan]

Fox News has the number of women and children removed at around 400. I am wondering if the Fox News use of the word Mormon in talking about these people, is a reflection on their politics.

If a person believes Mohammed is a prophet, and everything he said was true, is he a Muslim or something else?

[Dirk]

The problem is how many non-members will now associate us with this group because they are ill informed?

[Fiannan]

The problem is how many non-members will now associate us with this group because they are ill informed?

Give it up -- trying to explain the difference between ultra-traditionalist Mormons and general Mormons is like explaining the difference between Shia and Sunni Muslims. The press cannot really be faulted for making no distinction.

The Olympic games back in 2002 could have been a great missionary tool. However, our message was hampered due to some morons in Utah going after Tom Green and making the polygamy issue bigger than life. Face it, if you are a journalist and have the choice of doing some story on Utah life or a guy with several wives being persecuted by (ironically) the government of Utah then what are you going to choose? And believe me, the Green story was all over the press in Europe and the Europeans know pretty much nothing about Christianity, much less Mormonism so every story I saw stated that Green and other polygamists were Mormons.

So on this one don't blame the liberal press -- blame the "Idiocracy" crowd that runs Utah for firing a direct hit into the missionary effort in 2002 and any ramifications that has followed since then!

[pushka]

And believe me, the Green story was all over the press in Europe and the Europeans know pretty much nothing about Christianity, much less Mormonism

Just a little facetiousness Fiannan...can you back up your claim that the Europeans know pretty much nothing about Christianity?

I think you'll find plenty of Christianity in countries such as Spain, Italy and Greece at least.. not to mention a few others...or do you not consider the people of overly Roman Catholic countries (at least in the past!) to know much of Christianity?

[Fiannan]

Just a little facetiousness Fiannan...can you back up your claim that the Europeans know pretty much nothing about Christianity?

I think you'll find plenty of Christianity in countries such as Spain, Italy and Greece at least.. not to mention a few others...or do you not consider the people of overly Roman Catholic countries (at least in the past!) to know much of Christianity?

Okay, my frame of reference is Scandinavia and Finland (not Ireland or southern Europe). However, is Britain all that high in knowing about basic religion? I mean a recent survey in Britain found that about a third (correct me if I am wrong here) of the people surveyed thought Winston Churchill was a fictional character and that Sherlock Holms was real.

[pushka]

LOL re Winston Churchill!! I'm guessing that the age group of the survey were teenagers or younger? If not, then those people have certainly not been reading their history books..

The impression I get around where I live, is that there are plenty of Christians, from all sorts of Denominations...perhaps schoolkids being taught in secular schools, who's families don't attend church regularly, or at all, may not know much about Christianity, but I doubt that also as my son has recently transferred to a secular school (he was formerly at our Roman Catholic school), and he has regular religious lessons where both Christianity and Islam are taught (Islam because there is a large Islamic community where I live). When I was a child, I was taken out of my mainstream school, due to illness, and was taught at a secular school and we had basic religious/Christianity lessons and assemblies...can't vouch for other countries mind you, but I think the UK is pretty Christian, old Henry VIII and the Church of England and all that...