Prophets

[CatholicGirl]

In the bible it states that there will not be any more prophets after Jesus, but yet the LDS still have prophets. How does that work? And then in Deuteronomy, 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one:

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if though say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumtuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

That is in the King James Version, which I have been told is the only version of the bible that the LDS accept.

Now we have to look at some of the claims made by prophets:

In Doctrine and Covenants, 112, Joseph Smith clearly prophesied that he would be alive at the Second Coming. He also said that a mormon temple would be built in Missouri. That is also in the Doctrine and Covenants. Now over 100 years later, there is still no temple there.

He also claimed that "in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted". That's in the History of the Church.

Brigham Young foretold that the Civil War would NOT result in freeing the black slaves. (Journal of Discourses)

[Palerider]

This is going to be an interesting discussion.....I think I will just sit back and watch this one.....:D:D

[Elgama]

Catholic we get so many of these discussions and people get upset - often the person asking the questions. They start to feel got at because they cannot understand one of the most important tenants of our faith is that we believe in personal revelation, the Bible is divinely inspired but for me at least it is a long way second to my relationship with God

I know Joseph Smith was a prophet because God answered my prayers, I know the Bible is scripture because that same God answered my prayers. Thomas S Monson comes before the Bible for me and for that matter Joseph Smith because he is the person on Earth who knows the best route back to my Heavenly Father.

I personally do not use scripture quotes in my debate posts - I know my Bible very well but a wise local leader in my church taught me because they are precious in the wrong setting, nothing removes the spirit of God from a discussion quicker than arguing over what a scripture means - ultimately only God either through his prophets or through prayer can guide us.

Before you start this discussion its important you know each of us is LDS because we know God, and that a prophet who teaches us today is the most relevant, prophets of the past whether Moses or Brigham Young or Gordon B Hinckley are great men with much for us to learn from but they were for their day. The gospel isn't static as we grow we learn more and grow closer to God in 2008 the church is in general better educated and has access to more information we can be taught more.

-Charley

[MichaelPAGuy]

I don't think that answers the question.

[Elgama]

I don't think that answers the question.

in a way it does for me the Bible is only Gods Word because of Faith and revelation, same reason todays conference is Gods Word because of Faith and Revelation. What Deuteronomy has to say is important and each of the points she has raised can be answered, Prophecies can change after a prophet has given a warning for example with Ninevah or the king in the OT that was told he was going to die but earned his life back, and a 100 years is a drop in the ocean to Heavenly Father and the church owns the space, there is a temple in Nauvoo etc etc

But my experience on the boards has changed me a lot and one thing anyone investigating or asking questions about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, needs to know before they start is for many LDS nothing comes before that relationship with God, if that isn't established it can cause contention and lack of spirit

-Charley

[Misshalfway]

What verse in the Bible are you referring to with regards to no more prophets after Jesus?

[Elgama]

What verse in the Bible are you referring to with regards to no more prophets after Jesus?

I'm curious about this because I am wondering what Paul was or John or Jude?

-Charley

[Palerider]

I'm curious about this because I am wondering what Paul was or John or Jude?

-Charley

or Steven:)

[Elgama]

or Steven:)

ooh your a clever sausage you lol yeah and Stephen. And also I was under the impression Popes were chosen by and receive revelation/inspiration, but I could be wrong

-Charley

[NeuroTypical]

Hi CG, welcome to the forum.

In the bible it states that there will not be any more prophets after Jesus

No it doesn't. Some people interpret scripture in that way, but no, the Bible never says anything about no more prophets. Feel free to cite the particular scriptures, and we'll see how plain and unambiguous they really are.

And then in Deuteronomy, 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one

No it doesn't. It tells us how to judge prophecies. But let's assume for a moment that it does.

That is in the King James Version, which I have been told is the only version of the bible that the LDS accept.

Well, it's the main version we use, but I wouldn't say we reject non-KJV translations. I personally go to places like blueletterbible and studylight where I can compare dozens of different translations.

In Doctrine and Covenants, 112, Joseph Smith clearly prophesied that he would be alive at the Second Coming.

No he didn't. He said if he lived to be 70-something, he'd see the face of God. Well, he was shot in his '30's, and as far as that goes, we figure a person can see God's face after death.

He also said that a mormon temple would be built in Missouri.

Yes, he did. And it hasn't been built yet. No time frame was placed on the prophecy.

Isaiah and Christ both fortold the 2nd coming, and that hasn't happened yet either. Using your logic, I suppose you consider them false prophets?

He also claimed that "in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted". That's in the History of the Church.

Brigham Young foretold that the Civil War would NOT result in freeing the black slaves.

When it comes to criticism of my church, I've learned to demand exact quotes and sources. I've also learned to distinguish between prophecies and opinions. How about you cite your source, and lets take a look.

So, just out of curiosity, did you come here expecting to overthrow a church with more than 13 million members? Or are you just interested in how we respond to the stuff you've read? If the latter, I can tell you that it's all been answered a thousand times before. You can save yourself a bunch of typing if you go somewhere like fairlds.org and look at their topical guide.

Again, welcome.

LM

[Flyonthewall]

In the bible it states that there will not be any more prophets after Jesus, but yet the LDS still have prophets. How does that work? And then in Deuteronomy, 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one:

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if though say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumtuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

That is in the King James Version, which I have been told is the only version of the bible that the LDS accept.

Now we have to look at some of the claims made by prophets:

In Doctrine and Covenants, 112, Joseph Smith clearly prophesied that he would be alive at the Second Coming.

Here is the quote from D&C 130:

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

The bold part is the prophesy of Joseph, and it is was true...the second coming did not come sooner than that time.

He also said that a mormon temple would be built in Missouri. That is also in the Doctrine and Covenants. Now over 100 years later, there is still no temple there.

A quick visit to Fairwiki would have answered your statement

He also claimed that "in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted". That's in the History of the Church.

Here is a link that addresses this: Miraculous Events in Early Church History

It's about half way down the page: look for "Prophecy of Stephen Douglas".

Brigham Young foretold that the Civil War would NOT result in freeing the black slaves. (Journal of Discourses)

Your reference to Journal of Discourses is one that tells me you have not found any of this information yourself, but have just visited an "anti-mormon" website and took their word for it on what it says. There are 26 volumes of JofD, and I know you have not read them. I would suggest you read the entire sermon and then make your comments...if you still have any.

You know Jesus Christ made a prophecy about the second coming..."Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Well, that generation at the time He made that statement have passed, and still no 2nd comiing. Will you still stick to your guns about this?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

In the bible it states that there will not be any more prophets after Jesus, but yet the LDS still have prophets. How does that work? And then in Deuteronomy, 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one:

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if though say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumtuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

That is in the King James Version, which I have been told is the only version of the bible that the LDS accept.

Now we have to look at some of the claims made by prophets:

In Doctrine and Covenants, 112, Joseph Smith clearly prophesied that he would be alive at the Second Coming. He also said that a mormon temple would be built in Missouri. That is also in the Doctrine and Covenants. Now over 100 years later, there is still no temple there.

He also claimed that "in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted". That's in the History of the Church.

Brigham Young foretold that the Civil War would NOT result in freeing the black slaves. (Journal of Discourses)

First, let me quote from a good non-member friend of mine from another forum thread (emphasis in original):

More and more, I tire of the "Questions for Mormons" threads that are full of pot shots, innuendo, and the type of questions that seem more appropriate for political negative advertising then respectful faith dialogue. I hope these off-the-cuff concerns prove more thoughtful and useful.

Secondly, let me link you to that thread, as it probably answers any real questions you might have concerning the LDS church.

http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/10305-questions-mormons.html

Thirdly, let me ditto Flyonthewall when he said

Your reference to Journal of Discourses is one that tells me you have not found any of this information yourself, but have just visited an "anti-mormon" website and took their word for it on what it says. There are 26 volumes of JofD, and I know you have not read them. I would suggest you read the entire sermon and then make your comments...if you still have any.

and let me also suggest that the same applies to your entire question.

Fourthly, if you would like to discuss these or other topics without contention, please rewrite your question to include direct quotations and citations where appropriate. Also try to include the context of any of these citations, if it is available to you.

And finally:

Here is the quote from D&C 130:

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

I think verse 15 is a prime example of God being sarcastic :) So it is LDS scriptural doctrine that God has a sense of humor! Yay! Or maybe he was just getting tired of being asked the same question over and over that he'd said millenia ago he wasn't going to answer. So yeah, sarcasm :) Thoughts?

[skippy740]

In regards to sarcasm - I think of Martin Harris and the 116 pages. Joseph went to the Lord 3x to ask if Martin Harris can show his wife the translated 116 pages. The first two times, the Lord said no.

The 3rd time, I like to think of it as "Okay, Joseph, we'll try it your way." You can read more in D&C 10.

As far as CatholicGirl is concerned, I'm a teacher, not an explainer. Some people want me to explain my faith and to justify it by whatever has already been written and considered common scripture (The KJV Bible).

I'm a teacher. Which means that I will share my thoughts and insight with people who are truly seeking the truth. I share what is pertinent and ask the receiver of this information to ponder and pray about it for themselves.

I went to the Bible-Belt on my mission (Tennessee Knoxville Mission). I've already had my share of people who want me to explain why I believe the way I believe. What I learned best, I learned from my companion. He prompted me to NOT open my scriptures and simply share my testimony. I was to use the Spirit and my knowledge, but not open the scriptures as it can incite more feelings of competition. (3 Nephi 11:28-35)

As a "devil's advocate", I'll quote the movie "Secondhand Lions". In the movie, Robert Duvall's character is sharing with his nephew some of the speech he shares with all young men on how to be a real man. He says that "just because something ain't true doesn't mean you shouldn't believe in it. In fact, some things you must believe to be true - that the good guy always wins, that true love always prevails." My question to you would be: Would you live your life in a worse way or a better way for following the teachings of the LDS church? Would your family be better off for you believing that the Book of Mormon is the word of God? That families can be eternal through sacred covenants? (If you haven't seen the movie Secondhand Lions, it's REALLY good!)

My testimony is that Jesus Christ is our only way back to the Father. He is my Savior. He loves us and has restored His Church to the earth to prepare the children of men the way in which we may be saved. His Church was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know these things to be true for myself. I invite you to study and pray about these things to come to the same knowledge for yourself.

[prisonchaplain]

It's just my guess, CatholicGirl, but your sources for many of your questions is not Catholic in origin. Does not the Pope speak as a prophet, when his words are ex cathedra?

The belief that there would be no prophecy after the Apostles died off, and/or the Bible was complete, comes from Dispensationalism--a Fundamentalist Christian theology--not a Catholic one. The origin of this particular claim was to oppose Pentecostalism (tongues, prophecies, supernatual gifts would all cease in the post-apostolic dispensation).

But...if you are patient, and want to look around a bit...get a feel for the place...there is actually much good that can come from conversing here. I'm not LDS either...but I've find this to be a site that welcomes sincere and polite exchanges of information and ideas.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

In regards to sarcasm - I think of Martin Harris and the 116 pages. Joseph went to the Lord 3x to ask if Martin Harris can show his wife the translated 116 pages. The first two times, the Lord said no.

The 3rd time, I like to think of it as "Okay, Joseph, we'll try it your way." You can read more in D&C 10.

As far as CatholicGirl is concerned, I'm a teacher, not an explainer. Some people want me to explain my faith and to justify it by whatever has already been written and considered common scripture (The KJV Bible).

I'm a teacher. Which means that I will share my thoughts and insight with people who are truly seeking the truth. I share what is pertinent and ask the receiver of this information to ponder and pray about it for themselves.

I went to the Bible-Belt on my mission (Tennessee Knoxville Mission). I've already had my share of people who want me to explain why I believe the way I believe. What I learned best, I learned from my companion. He prompted me to NOT open my scriptures and simply share my testimony. I was to use the Spirit and my knowledge, but not open the scriptures as it can incite more feelings of competition. (3 Nephi 11:28-35)

As a "devil's advocate", I'll quote the movie "Secondhand Lions". In the movie, Robert Duvall's character is sharing with his nephew some of the speech he shares with all young men on how to be a real man. He says that "just because something ain't true doesn't mean you shouldn't believe in it. In fact, some things you must believe to be true - that the good guy always wins, that true love always prevails." My question to you would be: Would you live your life in a worse way or a better way for following the teachings of the LDS church? Would your family be better off for you believing that the Book of Mormon is the word of God? That families can be eternal through sacred covenants? (If you haven't seen the movie Secondhand Lions, it's REALLY good!)

My testimony is that Jesus Christ is our only way back to the Father. He is my Savior. He loves us and has restored His Church to the earth to prepare the children of men the way in which we may be saved. His Church was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know these things to be true for myself. I invite you to study and pray about these things to come to the same knowledge for yourself.

Kudos.

One more thing. Regarding the KJV being the "Only" accepted Bible translation, this is untrue. It's the "Most accurate ENGLISH TRANSLATION of the Bible." Joseph Smith actually said that the most correct Bible was a German translation that I can't recall the name of off hand. I'll get back to you on that once I find it.

[prisonchaplain]

A bit off topic, but some have even suggested to me that the KJV is not held as the best or most accurate translation by the Church, but rather it is the one that the Church publishes.

IMHO, most of the modern ones: NASB, NIV, NLT, etc. are more accurate, because they had a larger pool of much more ancient manuscripts to compare and work with.

[a-train]

A bit off topic, but some have even suggested to me that the KJV is not held as the best or most accurate translation by the Church, but rather it is the one that the Church publishes.

IMHO, most of the modern ones: NASB, NIV, NLT, etc. are more accurate, because they had a larger pool of much more ancient manuscripts to compare and work with.

A look at the footnotes in the LDS editions of the KJV will reveal a vast amount of additional information about the text including various wording or translation.

-a-train

[Dr T]

NASB! I like the NIV for easy sometimes. The best way to read, imo, is multiple translations. Pop them all open and compare the rest of scripture to itself.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

NASB! I like the NIV for easy sometimes. The best way to read, imo, is multiple translations. Pop them all open and compare the rest of scripture to itself.

I found this site the other day and it's absolutely fantastic, IMO. Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

I'm still not sure what they use for their Hebrew source, but the multiple translations etc as well as the Hebrew are really awesome. There's also a sister site Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt although for the NT I usually use Greek Bible in conjunction with the KJV on Scriptures

[Elgama]

NASB! I like the NIV for easy sometimes. The best way to read, imo, is multiple translations. Pop them all open and compare the rest of scripture to itself.

NIV sometimes gets used at conference and the KJV is only used in English speaking nations. I love the poetry of the KJV personally - I grew up mostly with The Good News bible but for me somthing is just nicer about the KJV, plus made Shakespeare and Robert Burns a ton easier to read

-Charley

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I found this site the other day and it's absolutely fantastic, IMO. Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

I'm still not sure what they use for their Hebrew source, but the multiple translations etc as well as the Hebrew are really awesome. There's also a sister site Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt although for the NT I usually use Greek Bible in conjunction with the KJV on Scriptures

Since I'm unsure about the Hebrew source for the parallel Hebrew OT, I went and dug this up Tanakh - Wikisource - it's a parallel English-Hebrew reference of the Tanakh, the Hebrew source for our Old Testament.

I've never heard the NIV quoted in conference, that's interesting. But then I hardly ever paid attention in conference.... And I think I mentioned something about the KJV being the most correct ENGLISH translation...

[CatholicGirl]

Firstly, I'd like to apologize. It appears that I may have seemed like I'm trying to attack all of you. That isn't what I'm looking for here. Yes, I have been told about a lot of that stuff from other people, and I was looking to see what the actual LDS people would say about it, and whether it's really true.

Don't be offended, but as a Catholic, I basically see Joeseph Smith as a man. And nothing more. I consider the bible as a more reliable source, because it was written by who knows how many people. As with the gospels, most (if not all) of those writers didn't know eachother and yet they wrote the same thing. Idk, but sorry if I've offended any of you.

Sort of off topic, but I was informed that Joeseph Smith was a freemanson. What is that?

[CatholicGirl]

My question to you would be: Would you live your life in a worse way or a better way for following the teachings of the LDS church? Would your family be better off for you believing that the Book of Mormon is the word of God? That families can be eternal through sacred covenants? (If you haven't seen the movie Secondhand Lions, it's REALLY good!

I suppose I honestly can't answer that, because there is no one in my entire family who is LDS. I live in Utah, so maybe I have a better insight to the LDS faith than other non-LDS, but one of my problems is I rarely hear anything about the Lord when I've been to your church. No, I haven't been to your church a ton, but they always have talked about the churches, and the temples, and Joseph H. Smith, and so so many Joseph Smiths. And then they talked about chastity, and honesty. The only time that the Lord was really spoken of was in prayer. Maybe the days I have gone... well, I just don't know.

Another random question: why do some people here put G_d stead of His name? If it is being used disrespectfully, then that is wrong, but to simply say it isn't considered bad, is it? (And it's the same with hell - in the way that in discussion you can use it, but not if it's being used as a swearword. Please tell me if this offends because as I wanted to stress before, that is NOT why I'm here. I guess I'm seeking truth.)

[skippy740]

Firstly, I'd like to apologize. It appears that I may have seemed like I'm trying to attack all of you. That isn't what I'm looking for here. Yes, I have been told about a lot of that stuff from other people, and I was looking to see what the actual LDS people would say about it, and whether it's really true.

Don't be offended, but as a Catholic, I basically see Joeseph Smith as a man. And nothing more. I consider the bible as a more reliable source, because it was written by who knows how many people. As with the gospels, most (if not all) of those writers didn't know eachother and yet they wrote the same thing. Idk, but sorry if I've offended any of you.

Sort of off topic, but I was informed that Joeseph Smith was a freemanson. What is that?

No offense taken! It's really hard to read into "tones" of how people type on an online forum.

First, YOU'RE RIGHT! Joseph Smith is a MAN. We revere him as a great and well-respected man, but a MAN nonetheless.

Joseph Smith was a mason. (I don't know if there's a difference between being a mason or a freemason. It's probably just the spelling!)

Masonry is another sensitive subject. Might I suggest that you ask about this at a later time after we've discussed your other post? "Line upon line" is a great way to learn about the Church.

[skippy740]

I suppose I honestly can't answer that, because there is no one in my entire family who is LDS. I live in Utah, so maybe I have a better insight to the LDS faith than other non-LDS, but one of my problems is I rarely hear anything about the Lord when I've been to your church. No, I haven't been to your church a ton, but they always have talked about the churches, and the temples, and Joseph H. Smith, and so so many Joseph Smiths. And then they talked about chastity, and honesty. The only time that the Lord was really spoken of was in prayer. Maybe the days I have gone... well, I just don't know.

Another random question: why do some people here put G_d stead of His name? If it is being used disrespectfully, then that is wrong, but to simply say it isn't considered bad, is it? (And it's the same with hell - in the way that in discussion you can use it, but not if it's being used as a swearword. Please tell me if this offends because as I wanted to stress before, that is NOT why I'm here. I guess I'm seeking truth.)

Living in Utah has got to be a hard way to learn about the Church. I say this because I live in Southern California. California has the second largest population of Mormons, but we've also got one of the largets populations. You'll find a fair number of meetinghouses, but not on every other block as you'll find in Utah.

Here's my best advice: Look to the gospel foundation FIRST. I won't say that it isn't inappropriate, but it can be fairly common that there is much discussion on Joseph Smith. We owe much to him, but remember, you and I both agree that he's just a MAN.

Here's what Brigham Young once said: "To live with Saints in heaven is full of bliss and glory. To live with Saints on earth... is quite a different story!"

Our meetings seem to focus more on HOW to live a Christlike life and we frequently use modern-day examples to reinforce these examples. You'll find this in the majority of our meetings. We rejoice in Christ, but we must ACT on our faith and convictions. Where we ALL need the most help is in Living a Christlike Life. Most of our talks are about this, so we can live more like our Father in Heaven would want us to live like.

As far as your "random question", I don't know either. I'm new here like you. We don't want to take the Lord's name in vain, so perhaps this is a built-in feature of the forum for certain words to be "blocked out" or shown in a different text. I'm sure that most profanity would automatically be edited (and a moderator to give a warning for such posted remarks).

I hope this helps!