What makes a person wicked?

[tiancum]

I know the simple answer is, those that don't keep the commandments.

If that was requisite for being evil, well all of us would be evil. None are perfectly obedient, but most of us try.

I think of the pharisees, who kept the commandments/law of Moses with exactness, but their hearts weren't in it.

[utcowboy]

I think a good definition would be someone that knows better but does it anyway or finds joy in the suffering of others.

As you said we all sin but we are not all evil. The Pharisees kept the laws in grandness so that they could get the compliments of their fellow man. I don't think all of them were evil or bad, but just following what their fathers had taught them. (IMHO)

[Maya]

Envy and anger makes people wicked.

[tiancum]

I just did a search and found this.

Here is an excerpt from a Book from Scott Peck, called people of the Lie. It basically defines evil.... It is fascinating.

What do you think?

  Quote

Evil and Sin:

It is not their sins per se that characterize evil people, rather it is the subtlety and persistence and consistency of their sins. This is because the central defect of the evil is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it.

The people described in this book, except for their evil, are most ordinary. They live down the street – on any street. There is little that is dramatic about them. They are not designated criminals. More often than not they will be “solid citizens” – Sunday school teachers, policemen, or bankers, and active in the PTA.

Evil People vs. Criminals:

How can this be? How can they be evil and not designated as criminals? The key lies in the word “designated.” They are criminals in that they commit “crimes” against life and liveliness. But except in rare instances – such as the case of a Hitler – when they might achieve extraordinary degrees of political power that remove them from ordinary restraints, their “crimes” are so subtle and covert that they cannot clearly be designated as crimes. The theme of hiding and covertness will occur again and again throughout the rest of the book. It is the basis for the title “People of the Lie.”

Evil Deeds vs. Evil People

Since I distinguish between evil people and ordinary criminals, I also obviously make the distinction between evil as a personality characteristic and evil deeds. In other words, evil deeds do not an evil person make. Otherwise we should all be evil, because we all do evil things.

Sinning is most broadly defined as “missing the mark.” This means that we sin every time we fail to hit the bull’s-eye. Sin is nothing more and nothing less than a failure to be continually perfect. Because it is impossible for us to be continually perfect, we are all sinners. We routinely fail to do the very best of which we are capable, and with each failure we commit a crime of sorts – against God, our neighbors, or ourselves, if not frankly against the law.

Of course there are crimes of greater and lesser magnitude. It is a mistake, however, to think of sin or evil as a matter of degree. It may seem less odious to cheat the rich than the poor, but it is still cheating. There are differences before the law between defrauding a business, claiming a false deduction on your income tax, using a crib sheet in an examination, etc., etc., but the fact remains that they are all lies and betrayals. If you are sufficiently scrupulous not to have done any such thing recently, then ask whether there is any way in which you have lied to yourself. Or have kidded yourself. Or have been less than you could be – which is self- betrayal. Be perfectly honest with yourself, and you will realize that you sin. If you do not realize it, then you are not perfectly honest with yourself, which is itself a sin. It is inescapable: we are all sinners.

Definition of Evil People:

If evil people cannot be defined by the illegality of their deeds or the magnitude of their sins, then how are we to define them? The answer is by the consistency of their sins. While usually subtle, their destructiveness is remarkably consistent. This is because those who have “crossed over the line” are characterized by their absolute refusal to tolerate the sense of their own sinfulness.

The evil do not serenely bear the trial of being displeasing to themselves. In fact, they don’t bear it at all. And it is out of their failure to put themselves on trial that their evil arises.

The varieties of people’s wickedness are manifold. As a result of their refusal to tolerate the sense of their own sinfulness, the evil ones become uncorrectable grab bags of sin. They are, for instance, in my experience, remarkably greedy people. Thus they are cheap -–so cheap that their “gifts” may be murderous. All sins betray – and isolate us from – both the divine and our fellow creatures. As one deep religious thinker put it, any sin “can harden into hell.”

[butongrl]

I think that there are few people that are truly evil. Bad....yes but evil no. Truly evil people I believe take pleasure in others misery and don't have any remorse for what they do.

[tiancum]

more from the book

  Quote

Scapegoating:

A predominant characteristic, however, of the behavior I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection. T

Scapegoating works through a mechanism psychiatrists call projection. Since the evil, deep down, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as the world’s fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad. The project their own evil onto the world. They never think of themselves as evil; on the other hand, they consequently see much evil in others.

Evil, then, is most often committed in order to scapegoat, and the people I label as evil are chronic scapegoaters. In other words, the evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Spiritual growth requires the acknowledgment of one’s need to grow. If we cannot make that acknowledgment, we have no option except to attempt to eradicate the evidence of our imperfection.

Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of the evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within themselves. As life often threatens their self-image of perfection, they are often busily engaged in hating and destroying that life – usually in the name of the righteousness. The fault, however, may not be so much that they hate life as that they do not hate the sinful part of themselves.

Dedication to a Self-image of Perfection:

This is hardly the case with those I call evil. Utterly dedicated to preserving their self-image of perfection, they are unceasingly engaged in the effort to maintain the appearance of moral purity. They worry about this a great deal. They are acutely sensitive to social norms and what others might think of them. They dress well, go to work on time, pay their taxes, and outwardly seem to live lives that are above reproach.

The words “image,” “appearance,” and “outwardly” are crucial to understanding the morality of the evil. While they seem to lack any motivation to be good, they intensely desire to appear good. Their “goodness” is all on a level of pretense. It is, in effect, a lie. This is why they are the “people of the lie.”

Actually, the lie is designed not so much to deceive others as to deceive themselves. They cannot or will not tolerate the pain of self-reproach. The decorum with which they lead their lives is maintained as a mirror in which they can see themselves reflected righteously. Yet the self-deceit would be unnecessary if the evil had no sense of right and wrong. We lie only when we are attempting to cover up something we know to be illicit. Some rudimentary form of conscience must precede the act of lying. There is no need to hide unless we first feel that something needs to be hidden.

We come now to a sort of paradox. I have said that evil people feel themselves to be perfect. At the same time, however, I think they have an unacknowledged sense of their own evil nature. Indeed, it is this very sense from which they are frantically trying to flee. The essential component of evil is not the absence of a sense of sin or imperfection but the unwillingness to tolerate that sense. At one and the same time, the evil are aware of their evil and desperately trying to avoid the awareness. Rather than blissfully lacking a sense of morality like the psychopath, they are continually engaged in sweeping the evidence of their evil under the rug of their own consciousness. The problem is not a defect of conscience but the effort to deny the conscience its due. We become evil by attempting to hide from ourselves. The wickedness of the evil is not committed directly, but indirectly as a part of this cover-up process. Evil originates not in the absence of guilt but in the effort to escape it.

Since they will do almost anything to avoid the particular pain that comes from self-examination, under ordinary circumstances the evil are the last people who would ever come to psychotherapy. The evil hate the light – the light of goodness that shows them up, the light of scrutiny that exposes them, the light of the truth that penetrates their deception.

[NeuroTypical]

I can think of a lot of good reasons why we would want to be able to conclude someone is evil, but do we really have the ability to make that judgement? In my opinion, we need to be careful giving ourselves criteria by which we judge others. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, just that we should choose very carefully.

The scriptures can be a confusing jumble of seemingly contradictory commandments to judge and to not judge. I really like this talk from Dallin H. Oaks back in 1998 that helps sift through the different scriptures.

He lays out a criteria for righteously judging someone (i.e. - you have to have all of these under your belt before you start tossing out phrases like "that person is wicked":

First, the judgement must not be a final judgement about a person's standing with God. God is the only person that gets to hand out those judgements, and he very rarely delegates that authority.

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, self-interest, or the desire to win an argument on a message board.

Third, the judgment must be within our stewardship. If it's not, we need to mind our own business.

Fourth, we should refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. Tiancum's Scott Peck book is very interesting, but how often will we actually know how someone considers themselves in their heart? How do we know they lash out because their evil, as opposed to they're scared and afraid? How can we tell if someone else is "in conflict with the world" or just is grumpy because they slept poorly? Are they really "Utterly dedicated to preserving their self-image of perfection", or do they just come across like that?

I'm thinking that most of the time (and all of the time on a message board), we just won't have what it takes to identify a fellow human being as wicked.

LM

[Dr T]

Doesn't the Bible talk about being sinful in the womb?

[Guest User-Removed]

A couple of thoughts...."Sin in the womb"...comes from the man made doctrine of original sin. As we know from the Book of Mormon and modern day Revelation...Original Sin is false, additionally, a child cant be born into sin...as children are not hel accountable until the age of 8.

Also...While I find the writings of the late Scott Peck interesting, I'm really curious how many of us actually search for LDS answers to LDS questions?

[Guest tomk]

  tiancum said:

I know the simple answer is, those that don't keep the commandments.

If that was requisite for being evil, well all of us would be evil. None are perfectly obedient, but most of us try.

I think of the pharisees, who kept the commandments/law of Moses with exactness, but their hearts weren't in it.

Those who refuse to live by the light and knowledge they have received are "evil." They are still loved of the Father, just not able to live with Him.

The key is to become penitent..."willing" to obey, even if, for the short term -- none of us obey perfectly. We can still be willing to. We can live up to what we know to be right.

[NeuroTypical]

  tomk said:

Those who refuse to live by the light and knowledge they have received are "evil." They are still loved of the Father, just not able to live with Him.

Hmm. So again, we aren't equipped with the ability to tell who'll be living with God and who won't. So regardless of who is evil and who isn't, it ain't our job to go handing out the title to anyone.

Am I off somewhere?

LM

[Dr T]

Not being born into sin and age of accountability are not diametrically opposed sir. Show me how they are.

[tiancum]

  Quote

Tiancum's Scott Peck book is very interesting, but how often will we actually know how someone considers themselves in their heart?

Yes sadly enough, I see myself doing things that Scott Peck stated...The only one we are fully qualified to judge is ourselves. Often times, I find that when I reserve judgment, the spirit shows me their heart more effectively than i c0uld have with my judgments.

[DigitalShadow]

There are many jerks in the world, but when it comes down to it, very few people are "evil" in this world. As for what led to their condition, I would say either a very messed up environment growing up or some type of neurological disorder.

[Misshalfway]

What makes a person wicked?

Green skin

[Guest tomk]

  Loudmouth_Mormon said:

Hmm. So again, we aren't equipped with the ability to tell who'll be living with God and who won't. So regardless of who is evil and who isn't, it ain't our job to go handing out the title to anyone.

Am I off somewhere?

LM

LOL -- how in the world did you derive THAT meaning from what I said?!?!

We don't believe in different Gods. We believe in the same God, the same source of "Good." We each understand Him differently right now, perhaps, but I believe he is leading all of His children in the direction of understanding His true nature. I include myself in this. I am coming to know Him better each day.

And I agree with you - judge righteously lest ye be judged.

[tiancum]

God does give us the gift of discernment for all those who know how to repent and follow him.

We are able to tell motives, the degree of light or darkness a person possesses, according to His will, to protect ourselves and our loved ones.

I have always thought this definition was wonderful...

  Quote

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

those who have grudges demand payback. Those who give for "earthly rewards" could fall into this category also...

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Tiancum,

I want to dissect your last post. Please don't take it the wrong way, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just find this topic fascinating, and you've said many interesting things that warrant individual attention.

  tiancum said:

God does give us the gift of discernment for all those who know how to repent and follow him.

Indeed. But isn't there a difference in being able to discern good and bad things/events/actions, and good and bad people? I'm thinking the gift of discernment extends to the first, not the second. After all, God judges our hearts, as all we can do is guess and predict what is in someone's heart.

  Quote

We are able to tell motives

Are we able to tell, or just make a guess with varying levels of data and knowledge? People do things for uncountable different reasons. Sometimes, we don't know what motivates us.

Surely, there are plenty of occasions when we have enough facts to be quite certain of our guess. Yet it remains a guess, doesn't it?

  Quote

[We are able to tell] the degree of light or darkness a person possesses

I'm not sure what that means. When I consider my own wife and kids and best friends, and someone asked me "what degree of light do they possess", what am I supposed to say? What does the scale look like?

  Quote

according to His will, to protect ourselves and our loved ones.

I very much agree with this. Yes indeed, the Spirit does occasionally help us fill in gaps in our knowledge in order to make informed choices about other people. The key, of course, is "according to His will". At the end of the day, what this means to me: I don't get to judge a person and start tossing around descriptive titles like wicked and evil, unless I'm receiving specific inspiration about that person.

  Quote

I have always thought this definition was wonderful...

  Quote

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

those who have grudges demand payback. Those who give for "earthly rewards" could fall into this category also...

The scripture talks about being counted evil before God. That clarification just seems to keep cropping up - God judges people, we judge actions and predict behavior.

Great discussion - thanks for starting this thread!

LM

[tiancum]

I think this stuff is fascinating too LM.

I was listening to Truman Madsen...and his talk tapes on Joseph Smith. There was one called Spiritual gifts.

Joseph exhibited this gift many times. He would know the thoughts and motives of people. He would know of specific sins they were committing also. Some call it the diversity of operations.

I have known many that can see into people's hearts. One of my friend's blessings says that he will read men's hearts.

Fun stuff huh??

[spirettedotter]

I agree that no one is perfect; every one sins. And I agree it is really not our place to judge another. That is the Lord's job, and only he is qualified to truly know our hearts and all the true facts of the crimes done.

However, when others touch our life with extreme wickedness that appears as irrefutable evil, it is very difficult NOT to acknowledge, judge, and name that wicked deed. And in the name of self protection and preservation, there is nothing wrong with making those distinctions, as long as we don't take justice into our own hands and try to take free agency away from others. I think when evil acts are committed, they can be rightly called evil acts.

All souls are loved children of Heavenly Father, and have the option of repenting if they choose to with strong desire and determination, however difficult. But the problem is, as the book mentioned above states, those people do not repent because they refuse to acknowledge their evil acts.

In order to commit those evil crimes, the sinner was likely traumatized themselves and conditioned to dissociate from their feelings about doing the evil. I believe that is what makes a person do wicked things.

If a child is born into a way of life that accepts and even rewards wicked and evil practices, it would be difficult, if not impossible for them to break out of the spell or trance of which they were trained (purposely or coincidently) to fall into in order to commit the evil act. Who is to say when a child or person truly becomes accountable for their wicked and evil acts, if they knew no other way, and when are they capable or incapable of breaking free?

As a parent, I see all of my children as having perfect and beautiful souls. But I don't like all of their choices in life. If one of my children were to commit an act that I know to be wrong, I would pray for their hearts to be softened, enlightened, and for them to have the desire and strength to learn to make better choices. When they were young, I would name their negative behaviors as bad, but I was always very careful never to say that "THEY were bad." I would always separate the behavior from the child.

I'm sure that Heavenly Father feels the same way about His children who commit evil. Technically, I don't know that we can know if a person truly has a wicked or evil soul, or if they have just been hurt and conditioned to do the evil things they do. But I wish that we could all unite in fighting evil through prayer, education, and knowledge of the true enemy, Satan (who maybe felt hurt as a young spirit child somehow too/?).

Whether we are calling these acting out people evil or or their behavior evil, I think it is just an issue of semantics. I often pray for those I think of as "bad guys," despite the offenses they've committed and how their actions have hurt me. I hope that we can all do they same.

[JohnBirchSociety]

  tiancum said:

I know the simple answer is, those that don't keep the commandments.

If that was requisite for being evil, well all of us would be evil. None are perfectly obedient, but most of us try.

I think of the pharisees, who kept the commandments/law of Moses with exactness, but their hearts weren't in it.

I believe that the scriptures are clear that we are all evil (once accountable) in the sight of GOD.

This is why nobody, no matter how long, can ever save themselves. It doesn't matter how "good" we behave. The Atonement of Christ is truly the only means of salvation.

Surely, in our own view, stealing a candy-bar is not the same as murder.

Yet to GOD, all accountable people are fallen from his presence, never to return, absent the intervention of the Atonement of Christ.

[Traveler]

  tiancum said:

I know the simple answer is, those that don't keep the commandments.

If that was requisite for being evil, well all of us would be evil. None are perfectly obedient, but most of us try.

I think of the pharisees, who kept the commandments/law of Moses with exactness, but their hearts weren't in it.

The first step towards evil is the step of selfishness. The frist step toward good is sacrifice of self.

The Traveler

[tiancum]

I just found this old thread. Found it fascinating.

I reread Scott Peck's views (on first page) and found them very close to the mark.

A good self checker for me.

[Hemidakota]

  tiancum said:

I think this stuff is fascinating too LM.

I was listening to Truman Madsen...and his talk tapes on Joseph Smith. There was one called Spiritual gifts.

Joseph exhibited this gift many times. He would know the thoughts and motives of people. He would know of specific sins they were committing also. Some call it the diversity of operations.

I have known many that can see into people's hearts. One of my friend's blessings says that he will read men's hearts.

Fun stuff huh??

This is often done through the aid of the Holy Spirit. Not hard to gain that talent for those who seeking it.

[VisionOfLehi]

Hel. 6:

2 For behold, there were many of the Nephites who had become hardened and impenitent and grossly wicked, insomuch that they did reject the word of God and all the preaching and prophesying which did come among them.

Alma 40:

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house

Wicked is the opposite of righteous.

The righteous are they that know what's right and choose to do it.

The wicked are they that know what's wrong and choose to do it.

It's a matter of choice. If you knowingly and willingly work against what is right, you are wicked.