Why LDS?

[AnthonyB]

I have been exorted (a number of times) to read the BOM and prayer the prayer for its truthfullness. (Now leaving aside the whole question of how divine guidance comes for a moment.) Even if that were to occurr in a positive way, why would it then follow that joining the LDS was the next step, someone might decide to joind Dale's RLDS or the Temple Lot group or any one of the myriad of small groups?

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

[Misshalfway]

Well, this is a good question. Reading the BofM is certainly a first and fundamental step. But ones investigations certainly shouldn't end there. There is more to the restoration one needs to understand. That further study, in my view, should help one determine which among mormon "groups" is right.

You said that you didn't want to talk about divine guidance. Frankly, I don't know how to answer your question without referring to that. The BofM....and the rest of the scriptures convert people BECAUSE of the Spirit of the Lord that confirms and teaches the written word.

[lilered]

I have been exorted (a number of times) to read the BOM and prayer the prayer for its truthfullness. (Now leaving aside the whole question of how divine guidance comes for a moment.) Even if that were to occurr in a positive way, why would it then follow that joining the LDS was the next step, someone might decide to joind Dale's RLDS or the Temple Lot group or any one of the myriad of small groups?

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

First President Hinkley said it as well as anyone:

" Let the Lord speak for Himself to you.

The acquisition of understanding and enthusiasm for the Lord comes from following simple rules. One of those rules is to read the word of the Lord. But I promise you that if you will read the words of that writing which we call scripture, there will come into your heart an understanding and a warmth that will be pleasing to experience. Let the Lord speak for Himself to you, and His words will come with a quiet conviction that will make the words of His critics meaningless."

The spirit will testify to you of the truthfulness, that is if you desire to seek the truth?

Secondly, we believe that the BOM is another witness to Jesus Chris and therefore by reading it, one will also gain knowledge.

Thirdly, we believe in the sanctity of the family as is a divinly inspired unit. We believe that we can by obediane to Gods commandments, we and our families can have the opportunity to be with each other in the Celestial Kingdom. Not just in this life, but forever.

[skalenfehl]

Our belief is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (no off-shoot) is the restored church with all the power and authority to act in God's name unto salvation and exaltation. In it is found the correct principles and doctrines of the Lord. Off-shoots happen when man disagrees with the core church. Our church is the same core church that Christ, himself, organized while he walked the earth, built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Himself being the chief cornerstone.

President Gordon B. Hinckley said of our church:

Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith.

[Guest Breezy]

Here is a non LDS perspective. I honestly dont know if the BOM is true or not. I dont know if Joseph Smith was visited in the grove or not. I do know that what was started by him even with all the bumps and that occurred along the way is a good and true thing now. Think about what the LDS are about. They are about family,being self sufficent,giving back to the community, being prepared,being honest in your dealings with others and being true to the covenents you make with God. How are those bad things? Why not belong to a church like that?

[Misshalfway]

Here is a non LDS perspective. I honestly dont know if the BOM is true or not. I dont know if Joseph Smith was visited in the grove or not. I do know that what was started by him even with all the bumps and that occurred along the way is a good and true thing now. Think about what the LDS are about. They are about family,being self sufficent,giving back to the community, being prepared,being honest in your dealings with others and being true to the covenents you make with God. How are those bad things? Why not belong to a church like that?

thanks for this, breezy!

You will have to forgive me -- I can't help myself.......

The Book of Mormon is so very true! I love that book more than I can say. I couldn't deny it if I tried. It has made more of a difference in my life and brought me to understand the beauty and power of the New Testament. Wow. I can't express it enough!

[skippy740]

Find a copy of the book "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder" by LeGrand Richards.

Of course, nothing will help without prayer.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Why LDS? Well for me it's because it is the original church restored in the latter days. Any offshoot from it, in my perception, would not be the original.

[Ankh]

Why LDS? it's "... the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..." (D&C 1:30)

Ankh

[Snow]

I have been exorted (a number of times) to read the BOM and prayer the prayer for its truthfullness. (Now leaving aside the whole question of how divine guidance comes for a moment.) Even if that were to occurr in a positive way, why would it then follow that joining the LDS was the next step, someone might decide to joind Dale's RLDS or the Temple Lot group or any one of the myriad of small groups?

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

You are using the word offshoot incorrectly. It's like saying the Roman Catholic Church is an offshoot of the Roman Catholic Church.

This is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has always been that. Your question should ask why should one join The Church of Jesus Christ, LDS, instead of one of the offshoots from it or the offshoots that sprang from the other offshoots?

[Traveler]

I have been exorted (a number of times) to read the BOM and prayer the prayer for its truthfullness. (Now leaving aside the whole question of how divine guidance comes for a moment.) Even if that were to occurr in a positive way, why would it then follow that joining the LDS was the next step, someone might decide to joind Dale's RLDS or the Temple Lot group or any one of the myriad of small groups?

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

Your question reminds me of Alice in Wonderland where Alice comes to a fork in the road and asks a cat which path she should take. The cat asks, “Where are you going?” To which Alice responds, “I do not know”. To which the cat says, “Then it does not matter which path you take.”

I have a feeling that at some day to come when G-d would invite all to come and live with him that many will look into his Kingdom and desire to be somewhere else. Many find that living among saints to be rather boring and lacking personal aggrandizements and fulfillments.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you and your friends are doing, in contrast to the LDS, to better perpare for the return of Christ.

The Traveler

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have a feeling that at some day to come when G-d would invite all to come and live with him that many will look into his Kingdom and desire to be somewhere else. Many find that living among saints to be rather boring and lacking personal aggrandizements and fulfillments.

I have a feeling that you are probably right, and it may include some church members too. Perhaps the people who do not make it to the Celestial Kingdom wouldn't have been happy there if they had done. Perhaps rather than seeing the 'lesser' kingdoms as a sort of consolation prize perhaps it is more that they are attuned to the needs of those who do not seek for more.

[drjme]

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

Hi there,

So......have you read the BOM and prayed for divine guidance for if it is true or not?

The book was revealed through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, not one of it's 'offshoots'. Since when did the 'main branch'(tCoJCoLDS) become an 'offshoot'?

[bert10]

Hi There. I can say why things like errors do occur. And it is,

Because people trust in the Arms of the Flesh. And they who do this have committed a great sin. If a man follows a prophet and when that prophet falls so shall they. All men are urged to learn and be taught of the FATHER and not of other men. Teachers of righteousness first task is to teach men to hear God in their heart. Not substitute themselves in the place of God.

<> Moses exasperated...said that all men should be prophets.

<> - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

<> Testimony of Jesus Christ is of the Spirit of prophecy (Revelation)

Peace be unto you

bert10

I have been exorted (a number of times) to read the BOM and prayer the prayer for its truthfullness. (Now leaving aside the whole question of how divine guidance comes for a moment.) Even if that were to occurr in a positive way, why would it then follow that joining the LDS was the next step, someone might decide to joind Dale's RLDS or the Temple Lot group or any one of the myriad of small groups?

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

[AnthonyB]

Thank you for your replies....

I was just pointing out that reading the BoM and deciding it is true doesn't make you an LDS but that the real question is rather if the CoJCoLDS is the true church, it just appeared odd to me in some ways that the truth of the BoM is the main question presented to non-LDS and not the truthfulness of the chruch.

As for CoJCoLDS being the true successor church, that is a matter of faith surely. My Mormon history is not that great but given that neither the prophet's wife, the remaining member of the First Presidency, the central stake president (and even the prophet's mother didn't travel west) and at least 3 of the twelve apostles didn't sign up to your branch then I think the question is not settled beyond dispute. Certainly I would think that the other groupings would consider themselves in someways as being the true successor group.

Revelation is a big issue and probably is the area where I diverge most from the LDS (the base presuppostion that leads to a very different veiw.). I believe that God created man in his image and that God will interact with the totality of us. So whilst I agree with the idea of spiritual "conviction" (or burning in the bosom) and God has at times lead me through that I don't see it as the totality of how God would lead us. I believe in prophetic messages from God and would even see God continuing to inform his church (eg the abolotion of slavery IMHO was a prophetic message from God to mankind.) However God left his written word to testify of the Living Word, and to negate, neglect or minimize that word for me is wrong. If a prophecy or conviction is not in line with the scripture then for me it cannot be from God. If God says He is love, then He cannot be hate. If God says that adultery is wrong it cannot be right.

Is the LDS church in line with what I see in the Bible, to the best of my ability and discernment no. This is not born out of malice or ill will, quite frankly I personally like some of your churches doctrines (eg universalism and continueing marriage are both attractive ideas) but I cannot see it in scripture nor do I have a conviction that you are right.

[drjme]

Hey Anthony, what is it exactly that you don't agree with?

[AnthonyB]

drjme,

I see LDS folk as saying (in simplistic terms), "Pray and God will give the correct answer by conviction, no matter what the question".

Whereas I see that if God left clear instructions he expects us to take the time to get to know the instructions and not to praying about things he has already told us about. (eg There is no point praying about whether God wants you to commit adultery or theft.)

An example is that most LDS are happy to say that God is three gods, whereas both the Bible and BoM say that He is one eternal God. Now how you choose to explain that oneness may vary but that God has communicated his oneness is IMHO clear. Any discusiion on the nature of God should start with the clear revelation in the bible or standard works. (Not a personal conviction of what someone believes God revealed to them outside of scripture.)

If a prophet says something that is not reconcillable with the bible then he is no prophet of God. Personal revelation or conviction is useful for revealing biblical truths and guiding in ever day life but not for subverting the written word of God.

[Traveler]

drjme,

I see LDS folk as saying (in simplistic terms), "Pray and God will give the correct answer by conviction, no matter what the question".

Whereas I see that if God left clear instructions he expects us to take the time to get to know the instructions and not to praying about things he has already told us about. (eg There is no point praying about whether God wants you to commit adultery or theft.)

An example is that most LDS are happy to say that God is three gods, whereas both the Bible and BoM say that He is one eternal God. Now how you choose to explain that oneness may vary but that God has communicated his oneness is IMHO clear. Any discusiion on the nature of God should start with the clear revelation in the bible or standard works. (Not a personal conviction of what someone believes God revealed to them outside of scripture.)

If a prophet says something that is not reconcillable with the bible then he is no prophet of God. Personal revelation or conviction is useful for revealing biblical truths and guiding in ever day life but not for subverting the written word of God.

Interesting you feel the way you do. It appears to me that in the economy of G-d that he loves repetition. In fact the Bible teaches that something is not of G-d unless it is repeated.

I also find it interesting that you have chosen the arguments of the Pharisees that taught the people that Jesus was not a prophet because he contradicted and subverted the written scriptures that were anciently considered the word of G-d. In case you forgot they “proved their case in a court of law” to have Jesus crucified. It would appear that Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 is a very accurate prophesy.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

It's not so much about praying whether or not there is one God or three, etc. Our position is praying to know about which church is correct, if at all. This is the third, actually fourth topic discussing the nature of God.

We believe that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, the eternal God, the great I AM, the Alpha and the Omega, the everlasting Father. The book of Mormon clearly explains why Christ is both the Father and the Son. We read in Mosiah 15 and 3 Nephi 1

Mosiah 15: 2-3, 5, 7

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

• • •

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

• • •

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

3 Ne. 1: 14

14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

I should also add that we believe that while Christ is both Father and Son, He also has a Father in Heaven. Together Father in Heaven (whom we Mormons pray to), Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost comprise the Godhead, three distinct personages, but only Father in Heaven and His son Jesus Christ both have perfect glorified bodies of flesh and bone. This is our doctrine.

[Traveler]

I have a feeling that you are probably right, and it may include some church members too. Perhaps the people who do not make it to the Celestial Kingdom wouldn't have been happy there if they had done. Perhaps rather than seeing the 'lesser' kingdoms as a sort of consolation prize perhaps it is more that they are attuned to the needs of those who do not seek for more.

I believe that G-d will find a way to "qualify" all those that desire to live with him in the Celestial Kingdom. I believe this is the good news of Christ. But since Celestial society and G-d are centered in service I think many will turn away and look to the eternities to be served and not to serve.

The Traveler

[AnthonyB]

skalenfehl,

I was not looking in this post for a discussion on that point, I was merely using it as an example of how I believe revelation and scripture should work together. Revelation is for revealing scripture truth and whilst not absolutely supporting a closed canon, I would want to make sure that any additional works worked together as a whole.

Traveler,

I would agree that God loves repeating himself, important doctrines are never said only once but repeated often. In the same way (if you have kids) you often repeat the important lessons of life to them. however if you left them a note you would expect them to read the note and obey it; not ignore the note and keep phoning you for instructions. Now they could get to know the so well that they began to deconstruct it and subvert its meaning but that is not an arguement against understanding the note in the first place.

Hmmm are you calling me a "pharisee"? I wonder if on Christian boards that may fulfil the same roll as "Nazi" on a political board.

However I would maintain that Jesus problem with the pharisees was not their knowing scripture to well but missing the point of it. Thay had built an impressive oral tradition that undercut much of what God had to say and had used their own revelations to totally cloud God's real message.

Maybe I'm missing the point of God' story and acting like a pharisee, I think it is danger that we are capable of falling into. (Although a person who is totally convinced he is not a pharisee and would never check himself for those attitudes is in more danger IMHO.)

I'm not denying a role for personal revelation (or conviction/buring in the bosom) but that it cannot stand alone and must be used as part of a whole person interaction with God including our intellects.

Peter was praised for receiving for personal revelaton on who Jesus was but immediately after that he was rebuked for a following remark. Personal revelation does not preclude making mistakes. We need to use scripture and personal revelation. We need to both be like Peter in receiving a dvine revelation and like the Bereans in testing the revelations against the scriptures.

[skalenfehl]

skalenfehl,

I was not looking in this post for a discussion on that point, I was merely using it as an example of how I believe revelation and scripture should work together. Revelation is for revealing scripture truth and whilst not absolutely supporting a closed canon, I would want to make sure that any additional works worked together as a whole.

I see. My apologies.

[jadams_4040]

I have been exorted (a number of times) to read the BOM and prayer the prayer for its truthfullness. (Now leaving aside the whole question of how divine guidance comes for a moment.) Even if that were to occurr in a positive way, why would it then follow that joining the LDS was the next step, someone might decide to joind Dale's RLDS or the Temple Lot group or any one of the myriad of small groups?

So even if someone thought the BOM is a true revelation of Jesus (which I don't) why should they chose your particular offshoot of the followers of Joseph Smith?

Are you investigating to find the non truths or are you investigating to look for truth and spiritual confirmation? if yer searching with a heart filled up with doubt and wrongs to be found possibly somewhere, then you will never receive witness, if you are looking with sincerity and true love in your heart for something that will give you greater happiness,peace,success,and comfort in his companionship, than anything else on the earth, then you will be given a perfect witness and there will be no doubt anymore, once you actually understand what it is and what one must do to continue the blessings, then and only then will you begin to own a testimony.:)

[Teancum18]

My personal opinion is this thread has reached its end and needs to be closed. The whole discussion is about individuals determining for themselves how Heavenly Father speaks to His children: individually and collectively. That is entirely correct and exactly why we are all here on this earth: to decide that for ourselves. So Anthony's very point he is standing on for why he believes what he does is the very same point for why I believe what I do. This thread is turning into a case of the chicken calling out the hen.

In other words, we believe what we do for the very same reasons that Anthony has expressed for why believes what he does. The only difference is our conclusions. Which leads me to your question: there is no answer.

[skalenfehl]

Well, no rules have been broken to merit closing this thread. There may be little more to discuss or contribute so just letting it drop down works well too.