Why would I choose not to accept the gospel?

[tubaloth]

and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it?

Why don’t you accept it here? DO you think the it’s the Messengers aren’t doing a good enough job? For the same reasons you can’t get your self to believe it now, are the same reasons you well struggle to believe it in the next life. You are still going to be the same person when you get into the next life. Same mind set, same way of looking at things. The messengers don’t matter, it’s the messages!

After all, I would now have hard evidence there was a God and the LDS doctrines were true.

How so? The teachings of the Gospel are just as basic here as they are going to be there. We teach that God had a son, Jesus Was the Christ and died for us. I’m guessing sense you don’t believe in an after life, when you got to the next stage you would realize your thinking processes was wrong and thus accept anything that comes to you. This doesn’t happen this way. WE still are going to have to build faith (which I assume is your biggest struggle), you still are going to have to prove that you do believe, that you want to live it, that making covenants is something you want, and forgiveness of your sins. If you don’t feel that now, why would you feel it later?

I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person

Not exactly but the Gospel well be preached to you. Others have said you had your choice, that is up to God to decided. But everybody well still have to Gospel Preached to them, If they already did have the spirit tell them the Gospel was true and they rejected it, they still well have that chance, its just they can’t get to the highest kingdom.

if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

The question then again is WHY? What makes you not believe in Christ now, but if he was standing in front of you, you would? Do you think you would feel the spirit that would let you know? That’s how we come to know Christ, not by personal appearance but by coming to him, by keeping the commandments, and following the spirit. Those that come to him know Christ not by some picture they saw, or some name badge. They know Him for how he acts, how they feel around Him.

The point of this life is to develop that in ourselves, really to become one with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. To be like they are. That isn’t done in a second, or a month or a year it’s a lifetime!

But even more, we have to learn to live God’s law. In the D&C we learn that if we are living a Telestial Law, then we get a Telestial Kingdom. The point of this life is to see if we can live up to a Celestial Law! If we can’t! Then we get what Kingdom for which Law we can live!

This is why we feel God’s judgment well be just! People truly well get the Kingdom they have lived for! It well be “Heaven” for them, even if it isn’t the highest!

[tubaloth]

double (I hate it when My internet goes down right when I'm posting, what are the odds!)

[skalenfehl]

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

And what is the torment that will be hell, that unquenchable fire.

Objectively speaking, I find it fascinating that folks like Elphaba and DigitalShadow and many many others see with different eyes than I do. I have had my faith proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I have seen things and felt things and experienced things that are absolutely not random. I have had confirmations and have lived my life by them.

That said, to answer your question, Elphaba, about why a person would not choose the gospel, I don't know. I once had a friend, an atheist, who told me if God appeared before him then he would believe. Maybe he wouldn't recognize God, then if He did. I don't know. Eventually, though, every person will bow the knee and confess that He is Christ. With such an overwhelming witness, especially once the veil has been removed from our eyes, how would anyone not?

For those who reject the gospel in this life but accept it in the next life will, according to Doctrine and Covenants, inherit the Terestrial glory.

per lds.org:

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 76:92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants D&C 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

[Elphaba]

Now there are plenty of people here on earth who believe in a spirit world but do not believe in God or Jesus Christ. Some believe in God but not in Jesus Christ.

This is true and an interesting point.

If they are preached to in the spirit world by the spirits of those who do believe in Christ I can see them rejecting it just as much as they reject it now. They will only have evidence of life after death, the rest will still be a faith thing. They will still be able to think that their version is correct and maybe think the preachers are misguided.

This actually gets to the crux of my argument.

The spirit prison is REAL.

The exalted beings who are instructors in prison are REAL.

Both of these would be hard evidence to me that I had been wrong that there was nothing after death.

And it makes sense that people who had other afterlife beliefs while mortal would experience the same shift in those beliefs, because of their immediate experience of the REAL prison and the REAL instructors..

Does that make sense?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Willow is right when she says that those who had the chance to hear the gospel in this life, and refused to, will not have the opportunity in the spirit world.

Where did Willow say that?

So in a way. that's the answer to your question. Your question: why would I not accept the gospel in the spirit world? Answer: you will not have the opportunity to. Sorry, but it's true.

You know, I often want to discuss this issue, but hesitate because so often people's coments are condescending.

Please just give me the information and lose the "Sorry but it's true."

Here is the clarification regarding who you will see in the spirit world. The Book of Mormon teaches us in chapter 40 of Alma that when a person dies, their spirit is brought before the God that created them.

Does it say if this immediately upon death?

Even if you are right that I would not be given a chance, why would those who were not im my position, who stood before God, and we're talking God here, reject the gospel?

So yes, when you die, you will see God, the Father.

So people who have not had a chance to accept the gospel will be brought before GOD, then sent to a REAL prison, with REAL instructors teaching them the gospel. And then they are going to choose to reject the gospel?

That makes no sense to me.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I think it is different if you have never received a witness of it's truth. If you have studied your little heart out, continue to read and learn about Christ in openness and honesty and with a pure heart, but have never received The response from the Holy Ghost to let you know it is true (Because that is the ONLY way that you can no without any doubt that it is true) will you be condemned for that? I wouldn't think so.

I think I need to make it clear that I am very firm in my atheism. While there was a time in my life that I did try very hard to get a testimony, I no longer an interested in that. I think people have the wrong idea that I am.

People saw Him in person and didn't believe, and they knew the prophecies, and were waiting for Him. They didn't even recognize him standing in front of them in the flesh.

This is a presumptuous straw man to me.

How in the world would a primitive people recognize a man in the flesh whom they had never seen before?

Additionally, not everyone who met Christ really knew who He was, so how would they know?

It's not as if someone were passing a polaroid around. I am not being glib--this has always struck me as very short-sighted and a bit mean.

And even those who did know him but rejected Him very likely did so because they honestly believed he was a threat and a false prophet.

In other words, people's beliefs are not black and white. Of course some people met Him in the flesh and had no idea who we was.

We have what we need to draw close to him here and now, You would take your intelligence you now have 'through the veil', why would your thoughts change?

Because I had now been through the veil! A veil that I was taught was REAL.

And yes, I understand I would take my intelligence with me. And I am very intelligent, so I do not see why that would be an issue. Once I had the hard evidence before me, I am intelligent enough to know that my previous atheism would have been wrong.

I can imagine there being preachers of all different sorts on that side too, all with their own interpretations, still preaching the word of God as they see it. You probably would still have to choose between them on that side as well!

You're the second person who has suggested this. Is it doctrinal? I have never heard it before, but admit I'm not that well-versed in the afterlife, so perhaps it is.

Because 'hearing' or 'knowing' the Gospel is not what necessarily confirms it's truth, It is that awesome witness from the Holy Ghost IMHO that confirms it's true.

Nevertheless, if God stood before me after I had died, and I was sent to the spirit prison, which is REAL, and REAL exalted beings stood before me, my understanding that my atheism had been wrong would not be a choice. It would be obvious.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

You would not accept it easily here as it would be there. Missionaries are assigned by those of the Celestial order, to minister to those who had not heard the gospel. They will be given a greater opportunity over those who had the opportunity within mortality and thus rejected the word. However, those who rejected the gospel in this life will hear it also but on a different note.

Now this makes sense to me. But I still don't see why I would choose to reject what they have taught me.

Also, you most likely not know if Christ stood before you. This comes by the Holy Spirit and through the Terrestrial order.

Why not? Would He pretend He wasn't who He was? Is He only visible to certain people, and not others who are right next to them? I really don't know, and if it is doctrinal, I would like to.

Now my dear sister, given the opportunity in this life, I would go with the greater glory and leave behind our worldly hurt and pain. "Why would an Eagle who can soar, peck in the dirt with the Chickens?":D

Because I am afraid of heights, and chickens nuggetst are yummy?

Thank you for your post. It was concise and right to the point, and made sense to me.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Pride, anger, misplaced guilt, fear, and any other reason that keeps people from doing the right thing here on earth.

Why? These people have not seen the REAL prison, the REAL instructors, and the REAL God while on earth.

So once they did, why would the choose to remain the way you've described?

Additionally, I believe one of the reasons people become the way you have described is there is nothing for them to hang on to, no evidence of anything better. This is often because most of their life experiences have proved this to be true. Calling someone prideful is too harsh; however, there is pain, fear, anger and guilt.

So if this person died and came before God, you don't think he would choose to believe what he saw before his very own eyes?

Elphaba

[Moksha]

Elf, perhaps this will help as you are answering all these helpful posts.

[Elphaba]

I find it hard to believe that a just God would judge someone who honestly sought His word to no avail more harshly than one who happened to be raised in the "correct" religion and never bothered to examine it.

As do I.

Elphaba

[KosherXMorg]

Willow is right when she says that those who had the chance to hear the gospel in this life, and refused to, will not have the opportunity in the spirit world. So in a way. that's the answer to your question. Your question: why would I not accept the gospel in the spirit world? Answer: you will not have the opportunity to. Sorry, but it's true.QUOTE]

Um, why are people baptized for husbands, wives, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, ex'd members, etc... after they die then?

[Elphaba]

Unless one was contrary to the core, even in matters of self interest or was an obsessive ideologue who couldn't stand to be wrong, I think everyone else would embrace the obvious.

Yes, this is exactly the point I am trying to make.

So Elf, do you embrace any higher meanings or purposes to life or the Universe?

Yes I do, but I believe that higher meaning is finite.

I believe our life on this earth is a miracle, not from a supernatural point of view, but purely because the natural world, full of billions of astonishing life forms, is real, and ours, and we should never forget that.

I belive our responsibilities should be fulfilled in this life, not because once I'm gone it won't matter, but because once I am gone, what I leave behind will matter.

I have met many people who believe in a god and think they will go to a heaven, and therefore believe the earth, as it is, is not that important to take care for

They also don't seem to understand how their actions impact those left on the earth after they are gone. I find this attitude self-righteous, irresponsible, and uncompassionate.

I especially worry about those who believe in heaven who feel their causes are true while others' are not. Therefore, they can bring unecessary wars that will obliterate children, and their conscience is clean because the children will all end up in heaven anyway.

I've even brought this up on the board. One time I had a thread full of the horrors the innocent Iraqis, especially their children were experiencing. The carnage was appalling. I especially remember one father sobbing while holding his daughter where you could see her feet and legs shredded to pieces.

A few posters replied they were in heaven now, and so not to worry about them. (One even said that made it all right.)

Then someone else started a thread about how we should cherish our children, nurture them, keep the safe, teach them the gospel, etc.

I was appalled. I do not cherish an American child's life over an Iraqi child's. I believe all children deserve safety while they ARE on this earth, because if they are not safe, they are never going to be safe. For a child to die, and not feel any warmth, kindness, laughter, or love, breaks my heart. Because there is not another chance to give that beautiful little baby what she should have, and could have had, on this earth, now.

This is rough and not well thought-out. But I hope you get the idea.

Elphaba

[WillowTheWhisp]

I agree with so much of what you have said.

I too have met people who believe in God and yet treat the earth with so much disregard as if it is not important to care for it and to leave it in good condition for our children and their children. In many ways this is why I have respect for pagans who treat the earth with respect and cultures which teach that they should try to leave their little bit in better condition than they received it, who don't believe that they can ever own land but are just custodians of it until they pass it on to the next generation. I remember having a rather heated discussion once with a really sweet old lady who believed it didn't matter how we treat animals because God had given Adam and Eve 'dominion' over them and in her eyes that meant use them as you see fit: dominion = dominate.

As for wars in the name of whatever religion one follows - how can it be reconciled? That is so hard. Sometimes it's necessary to fight evil and people are hurt in order to prevent even more people being hurt. It is never ideal. I suppose if everyone obeyed the 'thou shalt not kill' bit then we wouldn't have a problem but even people who profess to follow the same commandments can somehow justify killing those they disagree with.

Yes it breaks my heart too to see the suffering of children. I have permanently engraved in my memory the image of a screaming child running naked from a bomb with the fall-out burning into her back. The image of pain and fear on that child's face stays with me - yet she was one of the lucky ones. She survived and is now living a normal adult life. Who was wrong or right there?

Specific situations like Iraq are hard to comment on because there are so many factors. Before the west intervened there was genocide. Would it have been better to have left a tyrant in control and allow him to continue killing his own countrymen? What about WWII? Should we have permitted Hitler to continue exterminating Jews, Gypsies, the mentally challenged, people who didn't have blond hair and blue eyes............or torturing and maiming people in 'medical experiments'.

Sometimes there isn't a right, only a lesser wrong.

[Moksha]

This is rough and not well thought-out. But I hope you get the idea.

Elphaba

I am never sure that I get the idea, but for some reason it makes me of some lines from Mathew Arnold's Dover Beach:

The Sea of Faith

Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore

Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.

But now I only hear

Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,

Retreating, to the breath

Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear

And naked shingles of the world.

Ah, love, let us be true

To one another! for the world, which seems

To lie before us like a land of dreams,

So various, so beautiful, so new,

Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,

Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;

And we are here as on a darkling plain

Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,

Where ignorant armies clash by night.

[drjme]

I think I need to make it clear that I am very firm in my atheism. While there was a time in my life that I did try very hard to get a testimony, I no longer an interested in that. I think people have the wrong idea that I am.

So you deny any possibility of a God? Closed off your mind and decided completely without any possibility of changing your mind, except upon death? Sorry, I just can't comprehend the mindset of 'because I don't really know, that means it's not true'. It's like thinking 'There NEVER have been ANY other forms of life except humans in this INFINITE universe......uuumm..until I see them with my own eyes' When the reality is we just Don't know yet. So why make a declaration of 'There is No God!' because basically, you just don't know if there is one or not? You have no 'hard evidence' of there NOT being a God, Just as I have no 'hard evidence' of there being one. (I don't know why bold txt is stuck on I'm not trying to emphasize)

How in the world would a primitive people recognize a man in the flesh whom they had never seen before?

The scriptures of course and the Witness of the Holy Ghost, But even those who were the most versed in the Law didn't recognize him, And they had dated prophecies for the time of his arrival (Daniel Prophecies) etc. But what caused this closed mindedness of the Pharisees? maybe a decision already made of how he will come, what he will look like and discarding all other possibilities (through pride, tradition etc). What caused that they could not recognize him after having all the Word of God and seeing his mighty miracles, as opposed to John the Baptist who knew who he was the moment he laid eyes on him without having to see any 'evidence' , but a Dove flying down from the sky?

Additionally, not everyone who met Christ really knew who He was, so how would they know?

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And even those who did know him but rejected Him very likely did so because they honestly believed he was a threat and a false prophet.

The ones who Had the right heart and/or were true Followers didn't. Now was it the unbelievers that Honestly decided he was a 'threat and false prophet' based on their faith in Christ? or decided based on their inaccurate and unispired interpretation of scripture and their

Pride

A lack or absence of humility or teachableness. Pride sets people in opposition to each other and to God. A proud person sets himself above those around him and follows his own will rather than God’s will. Conceit, envy, hardheartedness, and haughtiness are also typical of a proud person.

How in the world would a primitive people recognize a man in the flesh whom they had never seen before?

Additionally, not everyone who met Christ really knew who He was, so how would they know?

It's not as if someone were passing a polaroid around. I am not being glib--this has always struck me as very short-sighted and a bit mean.

Yeah I was referring to the pharisees etc. who 'knew' the scriptures 'who drew close with their lips, but their hearts were far from me', not just any old person seeing him in the street.

And yes, I understand I would take my intelligence with me. And I am very intelligent, so I do not see why that would be an issue. Once I had the hard evidence before me, I am intelligent enough to know that my previous atheism would have been wrong.

Faith generally works opposite to how the human mind works though, Faith leads to confirmation or evidence not the other way around. It's like a friend I have who is a Christian. He seems to require evidence to justify his beliefs(thats how he first got interested). And because of that the endless search to prove the bible correct by finding evidence and trying to explain the things of God with the comprehension of man, to ensure 'hard evidence' to continue with faith. At the expense of contradicting scripture to maintain the evidence.

You're the second person who has suggested this. Is it doctrinal? I have never heard it before, but admit I'm not that well-versed in the afterlife, so perhaps it is.

Didn't say it's doctrinal, it just seems logical that if the spirits of men are where they are, they take their intelligence from this world with them, and God and Jesus are not there (otherwise why would the missionaries need to be there) then the spirits of men left to their own devices will continue, as men left to their own devices.

[tubaloth]

And it makes sense that people who had other afterlife beliefs while mortal would experience the same shift in those beliefs, because of their immediate experience of the REAL prison and the REAL instructors..

Thats why it seems like your biggest struggle is with Faith...

Lamen and Lemual both had an Angel apper to them and that didn't change who they were. (Because it is taught they were pass feeling).

Others even saw the signs of Christ Birth and still explained it away to be something else. Even trying to see in the wrong light people explain it away.

Joseph Smith did have a REAL person appear to him, yet you can't get your mind around that. (that there is no way for him to have that happen) The only thing it well take is a REAL person coming to you? Once the spirit is felt, it becomes REAL!

[Hemidakota]

double (I hate it when My internet goes down right when I'm posting, what are the odds!)

humor

[Gwen]

not saying you personaly elph but the concept in general.

i think sometimes we become so set in who we are that some things about us will never change no matter how much evidence we have to the contrary. entertaining the idea of the pre-existance as real for a moment , satan had more evidence than imaginable and not only did he not comprehend the situation he got others to follow him in his choice. if he could get followers there where the evidence was overwhelming can he not do the same now where faith is required? he will take us and lead us down his path so far that when we do have the evidence we will not be able to decide otherwise. he will literally lead us to our own distruction.

since you don't believe in the pre-existance :) that example will hold little water. however, you know you've met ppl like this weather you belive it's satan's influance or just choices that person has made. ppl that are so angry or contrary that no matter how much evidence they see they will fight for "their" cause (if you haven't let me know i can tell you about someone lol). in their minds they are right no matter what. they will hold their position to their own litteral demise. if they will do that here is it not conceivable that they will do that on the other side as well?

[tiancum]

Elph,

I agree, there is a little bit of condescension towards ya in the thread. I have seen your heart, and that is why I love you so much. I think you are a good person. I plan on going the same place you are....If that's ok.

If there is nothing, then we will surely go to the same place...Mutha Earth, if there is something, we can have a cross touching marathon.

We as Mormons-Christians-humans really feel the need to be right. Sometimes we sacrifice being kind for needing to be right. While a person might technically be right about a certain issue, we treat others as fools because they believe differently.(SELF-RIGHTeousness)

One of my favorite movies is "Harvey" Jimmy Stewart was talking to the Doctors who thought he was crazy. He said "there are 2 types of people in this world, the smart, and the kind, I've done smart, I choose kind."

[lostnfound]

Thats why it seems like your biggest struggle is with Faith...

Lamen and Lemual both had an Angel apper to them and that didn't change who they were. (Because it is taught they were pass feeling).

Others even saw the signs of Christ Birth and still explained it away to be something else. Even trying to see in the wrong light people explain it away.

Joseph Smith did have a REAL person appear to him, yet you can't get your mind around that. (that there is no way for him to have that happen) The only thing it well take is a REAL person coming to you? Once the spirit is felt, it becomes REAL!

joseph smith saw a vision. and since nobody was there how do you know it was even Jesus? We are to test the spirits.

[Hemidakota]

Have you seen the Savior?

[Misshalfway]

joseph smith saw a vision. and since nobody was there how do you know it was even Jesus? We are to test the spirits.

This is absolutely a most fundamental question. Is important to understand that Joseph met more than two beings who defied all description. He also met the adversary that day too.

You can go to LDS. org. His account of the events of that day are recorded in the preface of the BofM.

And beyond that, who was there with Moses or Stephen? Who of any of us was there in those days? The answer is the Holy Ghost. The answer to this will always be the Holy Ghost.

I must also say, that I have heard this argument so very many times. I understand it, but I am not always confident that those who use it have really thought it through. It is assumed that the account of Joseph MUST be false or come from Satan, and so this argument MUST fit. But I can't get anyone to actually show me who the real prophets are other than Joseph. If there are false ones, where in the Christian world are the true ones??

What exactly is the process by which one tests the spirits??? Can God talk to man? Will he? Under what circumstances is such possible? Or have the heavens closed along with the canon?

Yes, we also recognize that Satan will and does try to impersonate a being of light. But that must mean that God does visit man. Why else would Satan try to imitate such an experience?

[lostnfound]

This is absolutely a most fundamental question. Is important to understand that Joseph met more than two beings who defied all description. He also met the adversary that day too.

You can go to LDS. org. His account of the events of that day are recorded in the preface of the BofM.

And beyond that, who was there with Moses or Stephen? Who of any of us was there in those days? The answer is the Holy Ghost. The answer to this will always be the Holy Ghost.

I must also say, that I have heard this argument so very many times. I understand it, but I am not always confident that those who use it have really thought it through. It is assumed that the account of Joseph MUST be false or come from Satan, and so this argument MUST fit. But I can't get anyone to actually show me who the real prophets are other than Joseph. If there are false ones, where in the Christian world are the true ones??

What exactly is the process by which one tests the spirits??? Can God talk to man? Will he? Under what circumstances is such possible? Or have the heavens closed along with the canon?

Yes, we also recognize that Satan will and does try to impersonate a being of light. But that must mean that God does visit man. Why else would Satan try to imitate such an experience?

very thoughtful post misshalfway..and A VERY IMPORTANT ON INDEED!

The account of joseph should not be assumed to be false as you stated.:) A prophet was someone who pointed the way for Christ. In the nt we do not have in the early church prophets giving new scriptures. The cannon is closed. The work was finished at the cross. The end of the story. The way someone would test the spirit is to align the teachings of that spirit with the Bible the full athurity of God. If a prophet comes along and claims another Jesus, or distorts the gospel or claims things will happen that do not happen..A FALSE PROPHET. PROPHETS WERE 100% ACCURATE. let me give you another example one from the catholic church. There were three girls who saw a vision of Mary. A beautiful vision of Mary and she had a crown on her head and the vision told her that she was basically to be worshiped.. I am paraphrasing of course..but here is the point..That vision was vision of Satan who came a a being of light and decieved the girls and today they have wrapped a doctrine around this vision. Beware of false prophets..many will claim there is jesus or over there is jesus..and the bible says do not go. He came, he died for our sins, and the veil to the temple was ripped on that hour from top to bottom . (a huge thick veil that was the gateway to the holy of holies) Why? Because Jesus is now our high priest..and no other is what the bible says.."Jesus says there is one mediator between God and Man and that is Jesus Christ" We have direct access to him and him alone.

[tiancum]

Have you seen the Savior?

Lol, to whom do you ask?

What an interesting question....

Is asking such a question appropriate? I mean, why would someone reveal such a thing in such a place as anon. online forums.

-to give their opinions more authority?

-to receive honor/acceptance/respect?

-to help others know they can achieve it?

-to simply bear testimony?

If you have seen Him, do you need to say that you have every time you give testimony?

[Hemidakota]

LOL...that was sarcasms Tiancum to Lostnfound on his posting #45.

However, you are correct.