Jesus or Temple Ordinances for Salvation?

[ama49]

Is it Jesus or Temple Ordinances that save us?

I have more details on my website. I'd love to hear your thoughts on my website:

Grace for Grace

[WillowTheWhisp]

Jesus is the Saviour. No man cometh to the Father except by him. Temple ordinances do not replace the atoning sacrifice.

[prisonchaplain]

As FYI, I really thought this string was an Anti-LDS one. The website I was certain would be too. It's not and they are not. Ama49 appears to be seeking intra-LDS dialogue on this matter. I will be watching with interest. :-)

[ama49]

I have friends from other faiths that have brought this up to me many times and in my scripture study I read about Jesus' death replacing the need for the temple ordinances...I mainly want to hear what other LDS people think about the scriptures I wrote about.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I believe the temple ordinances are in addition to, not instead of...........and vice versa. Although the temple ordinances would be worthless to someone who didn't accept Christ as their Saviour.

[Guest tomk]

Is it Jesus or Temple Ordinances that save us?

I have more details on my website. I'd love to hear your thoughts on my website:

Grace for Grace

Both are needed.

It is not just proclaiming Jesus is Lord or having the ordinances done.

We must have a relationship with Christ and keep our covenants made in the temple. We must endure to the end. We must repent of our sins continually.

[Moksha]

To paraphrase a scripture: Even after all the other cool stuff we do, it is grace the saves us.

[skalenfehl]

Christ's grace is sufficient for the penitent, who fall short of perfection (all of us), therefore Christ's atonement makes it possible to be saved. If I may speak metaphorically, referencing the New Testament (John 14:6) Jesus Christ is the way, etc. He set the example and forged the path for us to follow. In our doctrine, the ordinance of baptism (unto faith and repentance) of water and fire (gift of Holy Ghost) is the gate to salvation.

John 3: 5

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Along the path are other gates that continue on the path towards exaltation.

D&C 131: 1-4

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

There are, however, many mansions in God's kingdom and there are three kingdoms comparable to the glory of the sun, moon and stars (1 Cor. 15:39-42) that we may inherit depending on our works here on earth. We will resurrect with either celestial bodies, terrestrial or telestial bodies, depending on the laws that we lived here on earth.

per lds.org:

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 76:92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants D&C 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

Perdition is not a kingdom of glory, however, and those who were cast down from heaven will also inherit this place including the very few, such as Cain who became Master Mahan, etc.

Luke 10: 17-18

17 ¶ And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Rev. 12: 4

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Isa. 14: 12-15

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

2 Pet. 2: 4

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1: 6

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Rev. 12: 7-12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev. 17: 8, 11

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

• • •

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

John 17: 12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

[Abraham]

Do you paint with a brush, or with paint?

A

[KosherXMorg]

The sripture teach that Yahushua (Jesus) is the "keeper of the gate and He employs no man there".

[chashathaway]

I like the painbrush analogy. Another analogy might be, if you fly from the US to China, was it the pilot or the airplane that got you there? Of course, the answer to both questions is, "yes."

That doesn't mean there is more than one way to salvation, but it means that Jesus Christ provided the path to salvation, and the temple ordinances are an essential part of that path.

I should like to learn what I need to do to get to the gate where the Holy One of Israel will meet me. The Temple ordinances provide the knowledge and power to get to that gate.

[chashathaway]

I like the paintbrush analogy. Another might be, if I were to take a trip to China, which would get me there, the pilot or the airplane? Of course, the answer to both questions is, “yes.” Jesus Christ provided the path that we must follow to obtain the fullness of salvation. The Temple ordinances are an essential part of that path.

I love the scripture cited above. It is one of the great temple ordinance verses. To me it means that the Temple ordinances teach us how to get to the gate, and what to do when we get there. Jesus Christ will be the keeper of that gate, and if we have faithfully lived up to the Temple covenants He provided, we can receive of His fullness, as He promised.

[KosherXMorg]

I like the paintbrush analogy. Another might be, if I were to take a trip to China, which would get me there, the pilot or the airplane? Of course, the answer to both questions is, “yes.” Jesus Christ provided the path that we must follow to obtain the fullness of salvation. The Temple ordinances are an essential part of that path.

I love the scripture cited above. It is one of the great temple ordinance verses. To me it means that the Temple ordinances teach us how to get to the gate, and what to do when we get there. Jesus Christ will be the keeper of that gate, and if we have faithfully lived up to the Temple covenants He provided, we can receive of His fullness, as He promised.

Moderators: Can I respond to this without getting in trouble or should I just shut up?

[tubaloth]

I'm sure this point has been made. There is no point in having Temple Ordincances with out Christ. There is no point in having Convenants with out somebody to make the covenant (or to honor the covneant) with out Christ.

The point really is you need both. (yes you NEED both).

You need Christ for the grace! We need covenants to FULLY partake of the Grace!

[MaidservantX]

Moderators: Can I respond to this without getting in trouble or should I just shut up?

Unfortunately, I don't know what you are thinking about. If you are speaking of talking about what occurs in the temple, then no. If you are talking about something else, perhaps you could run it by Heather in a private message to her first to see if it is all right to speak about on the site.

Thanks. Thanks for checking.

[Adeipho]

.

Dude, you stole my answer! haha^_^

[Abraham]

In the final analysis it is Christ who redeems us and saves us. Being Mormon and very active, I do not like the scripture "by grace that we are saved after all we can do." Now don't get too excited. If we keep thinking that we can do more, and we can always do more, it seems like we save ourselves, and it truly is strictly by the grace of God that we can be saved in the salvation or exaltation sense. In the spirit of this tread do we have to obey, remain steadfast, on the strait path, repent, accept the atonment (thus Christ) yes but the Baptists have the upper half right when they say it is by grace. Nevertheless, we as LDS have both halves. I believe we just have to be careful we don't let the shadow of works overshadow the Christ. In short after all we can do we never measure up (See II Ne Ch 9). Christ became subject to all men so that all men would become subjecdt unto him. But unless we do as John mandates, accept and know the true and living God, in his true and living Church, we will have some conversioning [sic] to do. Instinctively, we want to say, I do this and this and this ad infinitum and so I merit salvation, but it is on the merits on the One who allows us to enter, not oursleves. At the same time, we should strive to be as the scritpures state (see obad 2:21). we need to strive to be saviors in sharing and being examples. etc. In my opinion that is why the Lord said if ye love me "obey" (keep my commandments), love one another, serve one another. It is NOT enough to just say you believe, because THAT IS NEVER FAITH!!!!!! Faith like love and obedience and reprentance requires ACTION!!! So we have to do our part, and we do not save ourselves. It demonstrates the love we have, the commitment we accept, the plan we walk, and the person we embrace in the Savior. Otherwise we would be spewed out of the Lord's mouth, as it were. Consider this, Satan's plan would have saved all of us. No work, no service, no love, just saved. Just saying Christ is everything is like saying, his salvation was cheap and I accept it. He paid the price so I could coast. That is Satan's devious, clever, attractive, and enticing plan. Remember Satan carefully chains us and bind us. So anyway sorry to ramble, but Christ demanded obedience but not compliance, love but not acquiescence, service but not servitude, faith but not apathy. That is why the Gospel is the great plan of happiness. One who loses his life will find it.

Abraham

[Abraham]

In the final analysis it is Christ who redeems us and saves us. Being Mormon and very active, I do not like the scripture "by grace that we are saved after all we can do." Now don't get too excited. If we keep thinking that we can do more, and we can always do more, it seems like we save ourselves, and it truly is strictly by the grace of God that we can be saved in the salvation or exaltation sense. In the spirit of this tread do we have to obey, remain steadfast, on the strait path, repent, accept the atonment (thus Christ) yes but the Baptists have the upper half right when they say it is by grace. Nevertheless, we as LDS have both halves. I believe we just have to be careful we don't let the shadow of works overshadow the Christ. In short after all we can do we never measure up (See II Ne Ch 9). Christ became subject to all men so that all men would become subjecdt unto him. But unless we do as John mandates, accept and know the true and living God, in his true and living Church, we will have some conversioning [sic] to do. Instinctively, we want to say, I do this and this and this ad infinitum and so I merit salvation, but it is on the merits on the One who allows us to enter, not oursleves. At the same time, we should strive to be as the scritpures state (see obad 2:21). we need to strive to be saviors in sharing and being examples. etc. In my opinion that is why the Lord said if ye love me "obey" (keep my commandments), love one another, serve one another. It is NOT enough to just say you believe, because THAT IS NEVER FAITH!!!!!! Faith like love and obedience and reprentance requires ACTION!!! So we have to do our part, and we do not save ourselves. It demonstrates the love we have, the commitment we accept, the plan we walk, and the person we embrace in the Savior. Otherwise we would be spewed out of the Lord's mouth, as it were. Consider this, Satan's plan would have saved all of us. No work, no service, no love, just saved. Just saying Christ is everything is like saying, his salvation was cheap and I accept it. He paid the price so I could coast. That is Satan's devious, clever, attractive, and enticing plan. Remember Satan carefully chains us and bind us. So anyway sorry to ramble, but Christ demanded obedience but not compliance, love but not acquiescence, service but not servitude, faith but not apathy. That is why the Gospel is the great plan of happiness. One who loses his life will find it.

Abraham

[jadams_4040]

Is it Jesus or Temple Ordinances that save us?

I have more details on my website. I'd love to hear your thoughts on my website:

Grace for Grace

ya wanna get saved? get baptized by proper authority, then honor that baptism. anything more will require works of worthyness and temple stuff.:)

[roytucker]

In the final analysis it is a moot point. Anyone who truly accepts Christ as their Savior will demonstrate that faith through obedience. So whether an LDS receives the temple ordinances in this life, or a non-LDS receives them (by proxy) in the life hereafter, the ordinances that Christ requires of us will be administered. It's not Jesus or temple ordinances because it was Jesus who gave them to us!

[Dr T]

It is through grace alone that we are saved.

Romans 3:24 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Eph. 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[roytucker]

Hi Doc T,

I notice you're including four quotes from the same guy. :) I think Paul was reasonably clear regarding his interpretation of salvation through grace and made his case forcefully. The focus of his explanation was not the focus of other writers. James, Peter, the Lord Jesus himself, and modern day prophets, all stressed the importance of obedience to ordinances and commandments as a critical test of our saving faith.

Roy

[Dr T]

Thanks for your thoughts Roy. :) Test of our faith you say, they are a sign of salvation not an act for salvation though IMO.