Saints and Homosexuality

[breeb]

I remember coming across that issue on the ballot. I skipped it. I believe it to be a sin, but who am I to take away free agency? The most precious gift we've been given. At the same time I think about what abomination has brought to many cities in the bible. If I allow it am I contributing to the abomination? It's one of those things I can't figure out. This is a great question, and I hope I gave you the answer you are looking for.

I actually have a very close friend I believe to be gay, but I don't think he'd ever come out because his mom would disown him. She disowned his older brother for less. I talked it over with my mom and told her that it broke my heart that he had to fight this alone. And if his mom ever disowned him I hoped we could welcome him into our family regardless.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

[Guest User-Removed]

The First Amendment ensures all churches have the right to worship as they may. I doubt any lawyer would take the case of a person who wanted to pursue action against the Church for its beliefs and doctrine, including not allowing homosexuals to marry in the temple. She would lose, and rightly so.

The Church also has the right to encourage its members to vote against same-sex marriage laws.

Having said this, I am adamantly in favor of same-sex marriage. I also find it contemptible the way many faithful members who are homosexual, and have not broken any laws of the Church, i.e., the Law of Chastity, are treated by ward members as if they are pariahs. I wish the local Church authorities would teach their congregations that being gay is not a sin, and that those who are faithful and obedient to the Church's laws are not to be treated any differently than any other member.

Actually, even if a gay person has broken any laws of the Church, he still should be treated with the respect any human being deserves, including the ability to attend LDS Church services without being ostracized because of his sexual orientation.

Elphaba

While you're quite correct on who's tongue on the site need to be notorized...you are sadly quite incorrect on this issue.

No harm...No foul...

[Aphrodite]

She isn't actually...There was a very recent ensign article on the issue of homosexuality by the prophet himself who stated gay people can get baptised, hold callings, and be active in the church, PROVIDING they do not act on thier homosexual feelings. It is absolute fact. If they are a member then Elphaba is right,m they should not be ostracised for their sexuality. If you disagree with this you are basically saying it is ok to discriminate against people-hmm, not what the church teaches last time I checked. You could brush up some of the Christian beliefs we hold-you'll find them in the new testament taught by Christ :)

I remember it well as my DH (who hates gay people) was outraged by this article and went straight to his Dad to have a complain about it, I quote, 'I don't want no poofter siting next to me in sacrament meeting!!!!'. I was shocked, but pleasantly surprised to discover the church is more open minded than I previously thought :)

[NeuroTypical]

We're all fallible error-prone sinful fallen humans who struggle with various natural-mannish desires to do things that are not good for us. Most of the time, our passions/leanings/tendencies/desires/urges point us towards members of the opposite sex. It's up to us to control these, and express them only in appropriate ways. God's plan involves a married unit consisting of a man and a woman - that's the appropriate way.

For the occasional one of us, our passions/leanings/tendencies/desires/urges point us towards members of the same sex. Argue about nature vs. nurture as much as you like, wherever it comes from, here it is. The guidance from God is the same - control these, and express them only in appropriate ways. God's plan involves a married unit consisting of a man and a woman - that's the appropriate way.

I personally know two gay guys who have married women and fathered children. One didn't deal with his p/l/t/d/u until after the kids showed up. He's now divorced and has left the church. The other one dealt with his p/l/t/d/u before marriage. He's still married and seems happy in his marriage.

LM

[Guest User-Removed]

She isn't actually...There was a very recent ensign article on the issue of homosexuality by the prophet himself who stated gay people can get baptised, hold callings, and be active in the church, PROVIDING they do not act on thier homosexual feelings. It is absolute fact. If they are a member then Elphaba is right,m they should not be ostracised for their sexuality. If you disagree with this you are basically saying it is ok to discriminate against people-hmm, not what the church teaches last time I checked. You could brush up some of the Christian beliefs we hold-you'll find them in the new testament taught by Christ :)

I remember it well as my DH (who hates gay people) was outraged by this article and went straight to his Dad to have a complain about it, I quote, 'I don't want no poofter siting next to me in sacrament meeting!!!!'. I was shocked, but pleasantly surprised to discover the church is more open minded than I previously thought :)

No actually...you're both off the mark here. My post has/had nothing to do with Gays in or out of the Church...

My post was simply stating a clear fact. In the USA...(you know, that cheeky little set of former colonials <vbg>) Our Church and other Faiths have opposed the legalization of "Gay Marriage" due to the fact that many are concerned that if "Gay Marriage" is legalized that it will then lead to forcing the issue of Church's having to conduct marriages...read sealings here, that they might not want to conduct.

Elphaba is correct...We do have a First Amendment...That Amendment didn't stop the Federal Government from persecuting this Church for almost 50 years.

Many in the States are quite worried...and correctly so, that in these latter days, there are forces out there seeking to still destroy this Church.

[Aphrodite]

OK, I misunderstood your point, but in that case, how is she wrong? She agreed the church should not encourage members to vote in favour of gay marriage. Spo whats the problem???

[Guest User-Removed]

Aphrodite...I need to run for a bit, but will be happy to go into detail when I return....

I'm currently in a 12 step program for my online addiction...and have lost what chat room we're meeting in today....bwahahahahahahahahaha

[Hemidakota]

The problem Aphrodite, after several years later in the future, same goes with any postulated scientific theory given, society will embrace it as the gosepl and true. This is a common problem within our fabric of society.

[Elphaba]

While you're quite correct on who's tongue on the site need to be notorized...you are sadly quite incorrect on this issue.

No harm...No foul...

Please do not write cryptic sentences that say nothing other than I am wrong.

I am very open to being shown how I am wrong, as I am committed to writing posts that are factually correct.

So tell me, why am I wrong?

Elphaba

[Redbeard]

The problem Aphrodite, after several years later in the future, same goes with any postulated scientific theory given, society will embrace it as the gosepl and true. This is a common problem within our fabric of society.

But... on a societal level, everytime a group of people has been given equal rights it has been for the better. Women equal rights, African-American equal rights, why do you assume that homosexuals having equal rights will be a bad thing? I'm talking on a societal level of course.

[Hemidakota]

Redbeard, this has nothing to do with equal rights but further the cause for a unique group asking special conditions or rights. All men and women under the current laws have the right to choose. However, this opens a Pandora box for others special interest in demanding special conditions or rights; considered a very dangerous path in undertaking for any society, as it was for a beautiful cities of the plain - namely Sodom. It transformed this wonderful city of greatness to one of dread.

The caution I would give is that the Spirit will withdraw itself when these conditions are met.

[Redbeard]

Redbeard, this has nothing to do with equal rights but further the cause for a unique group asking special conditions or rights. All men and women under the current laws have the right to choose. However, this opens a Pandora box for others special interest in demanding special conditions or rights; considered a very dangerous path in undertaking for any society, as it was for a beautiful cities of the plain - namely Sodom. It transformed this wonderful city of greatness to one of dread.

The caution I would give is that the Spirit will withdraw itself when these conditions are met.

I did have a long drawn out response, but I'm trying to keep the debate out of this thread... Anyway, thanks for your input.

[crytsprospect]

H--- I understand what you are saying. Women and blacks were not protected under the constitution. Yes by the way it was written but not by laws of the day. People who are homosexual , their rights are already protected under the constitution and the laws of the land as a citizen of the United States. If we go that way then we have to look at other beliefs or lifestyles and their rights....... I so understand but don't express so well.

The constitution must be upheld it is what separates us and makes us .

[Moksha]

The problem Aphrodite, after several years later in the future, same goes with any postulated scientific theory given, society will embrace it as the gosepl and true. This is a common problem within our fabric of society.

I postulate that we all get smarter and better looking with age. Will this theory meet your test?

[Hemidakota]

LOL....it depends. My wife would not agree but as a former powerlifting, we age gracefully and put on some extra poundage.

[Misshalfway]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. It is something I have thought about a lot. Opposing such legislation from a religious perspective makes sense to me. But from a civic one, I feel more open to it. Most of all because of the famous phrase about the pursuit of happiness. I am not sure exactly how it impacts our society adversely. So many gay and lesbian people seem to add so much to our society. I don't understand same sex attraction fully. I can't relate to it. But I can see that keeping rights from certain individuals here in America seems like an inconsistency. And it is a source of difficulty and pain for those SS couples who may have issues that arise as a result of death or adoption. I am concerned that all in America be treated fairness regardless of respective belief systems.

Having said that I am not sure I am comfortable with normalizing such relationships. I am concerned with the morality of the lifestyle and how such exposure might influence children and society.

One question I have is why some oppose civil unions. Why is it so important to become married? Seems to me like an issue of semantics rather than rights.

[Elphaba]

One question I have is why some oppose civil unions. Why is it so important to become married? Seems to me like an issue of semantics rather than rights.

Many people feel marriage should be a legal contract that would give both hetero and homosexual couples the same marital rights when when they enter the contract.

Therefore, religious marriages would not make the couple legally married. It would be more of a ceremonial ritual, and could be disallowed if the religion does not support the marriage.

I tend to agree with that.

Elphaba

[Guest User-Removed]

Therefore, religious marriages would not make the couple legally married. It would be more of a ceremonial ritual, and could be disallowed if the religion does not support the marriage.

I tend to agree with that.

Elphaba

You tend to agree with what?

[Guest User-Removed]

One question I have is why some oppose civil unions. Why is it so important to become married? Seems to me like an issue of semantics rather than rights.

It really is more than semantical...

There is great concern within the Church that if Homosexuals are allowed to be legally and lawfully married, that the next step would be for a couple to litigate the Church into mandating that Bishops must perform homosexual marriages, worse than that...would be litigation designed to force a Temple Sealer to seal Adam and Steve.

Now, in another post ... someone not LDS exclaimed her shock that any attorney would be so bold as to take such a case. She might be right, but sadly she's not.

Our faith is the only faith in the history of the Republic to have the First Amendment suspended, in the Federal Governments perscution of us. Our Faith is the only faith to have had the Fifth Amendment suspended , in the Federal Governments persecution of us. Our Faith was disincorporated by an act of Congress. Our Faith was persecuted by both the Territorial Courts and the Federal Courts.

Ours is the only Faith that a President excoriated in his inaugural address...Many were elected to office promising to oppose the "Two Greatest Evils of Our Day: Mormonism and Polygamy"

Sooooooooo...Don't let anyone lull you into a false belief that there isn't some enterprising lawyer out there ready to litigate the Church into forcing us into Gay Sealings.

[Andrew777]

I don't see it as voting against homosexuality because of our religion, but because of our culture.

let me explain: If there is an election to allow gay unions and it passes, the effects of the election on our religion are very little. we still get to worship as we want, we still get to go to church, and read scriptures, and follow Christ the best we know how. But it does effect our society. the beauty of America is that we get to choose what we want to allow and what we don't want to allow into our society. In Idaho and in Utah (were i live now) the majority of the members of those societies don't want to allow gay unions. so they vote against it. It is the same in Wyoming (were i am from) but the reasons are completely different.

As far as my religion goes, I am content to allow consenting adults to do what they want as far as relationships go, that is their eternal right to agency. But, when it comes to how the society that I live in, that my kids grow up in, that I do my dealing day to day in, I prefer not to allow gay unions, that is why I vote against them.

It seems like a fine line, and to some people they may not be able to distinguish the two, but there really is a difference.

What happens when society chooses to disallow mormonism? Oh, wait that already happened. That's not democracy it's mobocracy and no court is going to force churches to perform gay marriages. They may stop people from picketing with "God hates fags" signs and stop those types of people from iniciting and suggesting violence towards gays.

[Elphaba]

You tend to agree with what?

That people who ask obtuse questions should not bother to reply at all.

Elphaba

[Guest User-Removed]

Elphaba...

I had a Rabbi who once taught me a valuable lesson..."When you show an honest man his mistake...He either stops being mistaken...or he stops being honest..."

Would you tend to agree or disagree with my dearly departed Rabbi?

[lilered]

For those who beleive the church is wrong for taking a position on gay marriage and that lifestyle and encourages their membership to support that stand I offer this.

Part of what is wrong with our Society today is that many of todays Leaders will not take a stand that is contrary to a particuliar groups desires. In short, many of our Leaders will not take a stand that is based on their true conviction and/or faith based, but instead pander to what is polictically or socially correct. The result is they stand for nothing but simply sway in the wind.

What is forgotten is that we are at war with Satan and we truly need good Christian Leadership and christians who will take a stand against all evil practices which violate Gods commandments.

[AELK]

I have considered this topic a lot maybe because someone I love dearly is gay or perhaps it could be an educational issue, (Because I am a fetal/infant development specialist I have learned about the development of the brain and the link to homosexuality, I understand it isn't just a 'choice' someone makes). Although I do have difficult thoughts associated with gay marriage or even gay relationships, and have not completely understood the situation nor come to any conclusions, I have come to realize something. And this was not from any interactions with individuals who are homosexual my conclusion stemed from listening to members of my ward speak out on the topic.

I have realized this is part of the test for we saints, not necessarily for the saints who struggle with homosexuality. I heard hatred when I listened to the members of my ward, hatred to the point that if an individual who was gay was present he would have probably been murdered or at least beaten. I mean what I heard were very strong feelings of pure hatred, and this was in a gospel doctrine class. Never did our Father in Heaven intend for us to have such feelings towards any of our brethren. I believe that this is one of those true tests of who we are or for who we are to become.

Through knowing someone who is LDS and homosexual I have come to understand that there are some horrible outcomes for these young men. Sometimes suicide, and almost surely a loss of self-esteem and self-worth. They have no choice but to leave the church (although I am aware of some who stay in the church and either hide their lifestyle or choose not to practice it). There are LDS-gay groups so they can offer each other support. I have also recently learned of a group of former LDS who want to continue in the church but are not accepted for one reason or another, being gay is among those reasons, so they formed there own ward in the Tacoma area so they could continue to worship and fellowship.

Regardless of how we personally feel about homosexuality, I know that what is intended for us is to continue to love and support our brothers and sisters who are in this situation. Their road is hard enough to walk, why would we ever want to throw sharp stones upon their road to make it even more difficult?

AELK

[azazel420]

The most common and generally indeed only argument levelled against homosexual union is the defense of the "sanctity of marriage". This defines the issue purely as a religious objection to gay marriage. The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution guarantees all U.S. citizens the freedom of religion. Ultimately whatever your religious belief this is an issue of allowing the government to ban a practice based on a general religious repugnance. The deeper issue here is should we, as Americans, allow our government to impose a standard moral and/or religious code. If you believe we should then you need to reread the Bill of Rights.