Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[crytsprospect]

leave because of sin ... please so those who stay are sinless??? especially those who stay and judge why some leave... they are the real sinners,... how sad

[skalenfehl]

I think some folks are missing the point and the key words such as basic cause, apostacy, rebellion, etc.

Yes, we all sin, and I think I am correct in assuming that we all judge, regardless of religious affiliation. Let's switch gears a bit and discuss the word rebellion. Why do people choose to rebel against any organization or institution?

Skip, can you share any more from Bruce regarding this quote? I'd like to see if there's more to it as far as context goes.

[KosherXMorg]

leave because of sin ... please so those who stay are sinless??? especially those who stay and judge why some leave... they are the real sinners,... how sad

I assume you're responding to lauracooke? A quote would've helped :)

[Misshalfway]

I like what Skal said. He did say 'basic' reason. I am guessing he didn't mean every reason. I think he was thinking of a broad context and not the entire landscape.

I think knowing why a person leaves is valuable information. It can help us know how to love them. It can direct our prayers in their behalf. It can humble us and make us more profitable servants.

I didn't leave because of sin. I absolutely didn't. I can't explain to you all why I left. But I felt God go with me. He understood. He knew what no one else could. My sweet bishop understood too.

I see and feel the hurtful judgments of others. And it is ok. They don't understand. They think that they do. And they stop short of making a great difference because of that judgment.

[KosherXMorg]

I think some folks are missing the point and the key words such as basic cause, apostacy, rebellion, etc.

Yes, we all sin, and I think I am correct in assuming that we all judge, regardless of religious affiliation. Let's switch gears a bit and discuss the word rebellion. Why do people choose to rebel against any organization or institution?

Skip, can you share any more from Bruce regarding this quote? I'd like to see if there's more to it as far as context goes.

:) Even in your sincere effort to be diplomatic you asking why people "rebel" against any organization or institution, shows that deep inside you believe it is about an attitude problem on the part of the person leaving and doesn't have anything to do with just general disagreements in terms of doctrine, history, or scriptural interpretation...

Main Entry: 3re·bel

Pronunciation: ri-primarystressbel

Function: verb

Inflected Form(s): re·belled; re·bel·ling

1 : to be against or fight against authority and especially the authority of one's government

2 : to feel or show anger or strong dislike

I don't fight against the church, nor am I angry at it, nor do I dislike it. I just have fundamental disagreements with scriptural and doctrinal interpretation. But I feel that way about all the churches of the Restoration and admit there are things I most likely am wrong about. We are all Branches of the one tree organized April 6th, 1830, but because of pride and rebellion we have been scattered.

[crytsprospect]

Kosher I promise to try ands remember to put Quotes in my comments

(I assume you're responding to lauracooke? A quote would've helped }

Ok I did it backwards but realized the error

[Hemidakota]

I think some folks are missing the point and the key words such as basic cause, apostacy, rebellion, etc.

Yes, we all sin, and I think I am correct in assuming that we all judge, regardless of religious affiliation. Let's switch gears a bit and discuss the word rebellion. Why do people choose to rebel against any organization or institution?

Skip, can you share any more from Bruce regarding this quote? I'd like to see if there's more to it as far as context goes.

Elder McConkie's excerpt from Mormon Doctrine:

Rebellion

Rebellion against God is open, wilful resistance to and defiance of his authority. Lucifer and one-third of the hosts of heaven came out in open, organized rebellion in pre-existence. (Rev. 12:7-10.) Those in this life who, having the light before them, succumb to the enticements of the devil become rebels. (Mosiah 3:11-12.) "The Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection." (Mosiah 15:26.)

Rebellion leads to damnation. There is no mercy for those who know the will of God and who do not do it. "Wo unto him that has the law given," Jacob said, "yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!" (2 Ne. 9:27.)

King Benjamin spoke similarly: "After ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom's paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved — I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples. Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever." (Mosiah 2:36-38; Alma 3:18; Morm. 2:15.) Is it any wonder that Samuel said: "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." (1 Sam. 15:23.)

Those saints who traverse the path of rebellion ordinarily do so by defying the will of God in lesser things, and then as their consciences and feelings become hardened, increasing rebellion becomes the established order. For a member of the Church to use tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor is to rebel against the Lord and his law. Wilful absence from sacrament meeting is a type of rebellion; so likewise is wilful failure to pay an honest tithing.

The degree of condemnation attending rebellion depends upon the nature of the defiance and the light enjoyed by the rebel. The Lord's anger is kindled against all the rebellious. (D. & C. 56:1; 63:2.) In due course they shall be pierced with much sorrow (D. & C. 1:3, 8) and cut off from the land of Zion. "The rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim." (D. & C. 64:35-36.)

Those who have a perfect knowledge of the truth and who then come out in open rebellion will become sons of perdition. "That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still." (D. & C. 88:35.)

[Guest lauracooke78]

As much as you were all quoting me, I was quoting Bruce. And I agree with him from the experiences that I have seen. Does anyone on here know the origins and meaning of "sin" anyway. It means "missing the mark", from a greek/hebrew combined meaning. So those who leave (according to Mormon doctrine) are missing the mark if they walk away from the truth. Plus, I was mis-quoted if that sentance is all you are looking at. I did mention new comers/members, I beleive they are in a league of their own when they decide to leave. Also I am not disagreeing with those who have made comments pointing to the culture of the church regarding cliquiness and those who are not made to feel welcome etc. I agree whole heartedly with that. I experienced that my whole child/teenage life and it is not fun. But having said that, we have to stand on our own two feet and rely on our relationship with the Savior else we will be insulted at every turn in our lives.

Also if someone leaves or is ex'd, it is up to the church members in the local area to help and feed his sheep. If there is anyone on this thread who is in the situation of being ex'd or have left the church for their own reasons, but have members in their local area who visit with them (if they want) and are loving, kind and not condecending, then I am sure coming on this thread they wouldn't feel so insulted by what I have said, because their own personal experience has been different. But if you have been in the situation of having condecending members approach you, then you may put me in their catagory.

In my local area when doing visiting teaching, I visit sisters and resolve concerns - they range from lonliness to sin. None of them feel insulted by my frankness (which includes expressions of love and concern, and straight up what is your issue type questions). So who knows. My attitude in my real life (not on this cyber web) has never upset people. They may choose not to come back (to church) etc, but they are not angry at me with how I have approached the situation.

[Hemidakota]

Adding to Laura's post, in Saxon it is spelled 'Syn' or to depart, to wander.

Elder Orson F. Whitney has this to say in defining sin:

Sin is the transgression of divine law. A man sins when he violates his conscience, going contrary to light and knowledge-not the light and knowledge that has come to his neighbor, but that which has come to himself. He sins when he does the opposite of what he knows to be right. Up to that point he only blunders. One may suffer painful consequences for only blundering, but he cannot commit sin unless he knows better than to do the thing in which the sin consists. One must have a conscience before he can violate it. (Cowley and Whitney on Doctrine, pp. 435-36) TLDP:631

[WillowTheWhisp]

Elder McConkie didn't say 'sin' he said 'lusts of the flesh' which does rather create a different impression to the idea of non-lusting type sins.

I do however thank skalenfehl for pointing out that he said 'basic' and not 'all'

[Guest lauracooke78]

Lusts of the flesh can all be catagorised under one theme... pride = sinnful attitude which leads to sin in all respects. Sin being defined above by Hemi. I believe that new members blunder alot and fall away, as described above in what I said and what Hemi said. But people who have been in the church for a long time, what have they been doing, if not studying to understand and live God's law better?

[Moksha]

Lusts of the flesh can all be categorized under one theme... pride = sinful attitude which leads to sin in all respects.

Seems to me like "lusts of the flesh" is a euphemism for sexual desire. I like to take my definition of pride without this added element.

I still can't shake the feeling that Elder McConkie was being bombastic and unnecessarily harsh in his quote.

[KosherXMorg]

...But people who have been in the church for a long time, what have they been doing, if not studying to understand and live God's law better?

And my "studying to understand and live G-d's law better" is exactly what led me away from the LDS church. I didn't walk away because of a desire to indulge in my sins or that I was offended by some church leader or member. When I began my study leaving the LDS church was the furthest thing from my intentions.

[skalenfehl]

:) Even in your sincere effort to be diplomatic you asking why people "rebel" against any organization or institution, shows that deep inside you believe it is about an attitude problem on the part of the person leaving and doesn't have anything to do with just general disagreements in terms of doctrine, history, or scriptural interpretation...

Main Entry: 3re·bel

Pronunciation: ri-primarystressbel

Function: verb

Inflected Form(s): re·belled; re·bel·ling

1 : to be against or fight against authority and especially the authority of one's government

2 : to feel or show anger or strong dislike

I don't fight against the church, nor am I angry at it, nor do I dislike it. I just have fundamental disagreements with scriptural and doctrinal interpretation. But I feel that way about all the churches of the Restoration and admit there are things I most likely am wrong about. We are all Branches of the one tree organized April 6th, 1830, but because of pride and rebellion we have been scattered.

I did agree early in the topic with an explanation. Consider Lucifer's rebellion in the premortal existence. He was cast out along with a third of the hosts of heaven. This is the context of the quote that I subscribe to. There are more examples temporally, but I gotta head out. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not always right either. :)

[Guest lauracooke78]

And my "studying to understand and live G-d's law better" is exactly what led me away from the LDS church. I didn't walk away because of a desire to indulge in my sins or that I was offended by some church leader or member. When I began my study leaving the LDS church was the furthest thing from my intentions.

Well, I am happy for you Kosher. But from an LDS point of view, what you did was sin. Turn away from what we believe is the full truth. Hence you fit into the catagory of what Elder McConkie was on about.

Can I make another comment about Elder McConkie. I believe he was a great man and I agree with everything that he taught, only because I have received a witness of it myself. The thing with him is, I believe that much of what he wrote (ie Mormon Doctrine) was not church literature because frankly it was too much information for members to receive and therefore they would be condemned by it. Yes, he was a prophet, seer and revelator, but maybe everything that was revealed to him, the church was not yet ready, or should not have received because it would come under condemnation for receiving it. That is my opinion and thoughts only.

[Traveler]

From a religious standpoint, carnal and sensual are terms to describe a turning to satisfy the wants and need of self. The opposite is the sacrifice of self.

Not all that are carnal and sensual wander far enough to leave the spiritual safety of “church” but still remain at some level of apostasy while trying to be a member for selfish reasons. I have posted before that those that seek salvation for selfish reasons are enjoying a degree of apostasy. If it is about what you want, what you get and about you then you are enjoying a carnal and sensual point of view. Often when someone brags to me about their “personal” relationship with G-d; I have wondered if they are speaking out of pride and a carnal and sensual or “selfish” desire.

May I continue? Those in marriage that complain that their spouse does not satisfy some need or desire are in the grip of apostasy because of the focus on self. And so divorce is justified in order to fulfill self.

I would like to brag to the forum and tell you how I have mastered the art of being unselfish – but in truth I struggle every day – more so because I believe it to be the core of evil. I do not say these things so I can point to anyone. When I hear of struggles of the carnal and sensual I often think it is deserved but then I remember the apostles that when told of apostasy asked, “L-rd is it I?”

Several times I have stood by a dying friend or family member and they have grasped my hand and pleaded that I pray with them that they can “endure” to the end. I have wondered – What sin can a dying person commit? It is the carnal and sensual nature still keen with them. And I think that I hope I die quickly but then that is my carnal and sensual nature tempting me – so I know it will be a struggle for me all my life.

The Traveler

[KosherXMorg]

Well, I am happy for you Kosher. But from an LDS point of view, what you did was sin. Turn away from what we believe is the full truth. Hence you fit into the catagory of what Elder McConkie was on about.

Can I make another comment about Elder McConkie. I believe he was a great man and I agree with everything that he taught, only because I have received a witness of it myself. The thing with him is, I believe that much of what he wrote (ie Mormon Doctrine) was not church literature because frankly it was too much information for members to receive and therefore they would be condemned by it. Yes, he was a prophet, seer and revelator, but maybe everything that was revealed to him, the church was not yet ready, or should not have received because it would come under condemnation for receiving it. That is my opinion and thoughts only.

My leaving the church is only sin if what you teach is correct. If their is error in your doctrines and scriptural interpretation then my leaving was acceptable. And I do not fit Mr. McCokie's description because I did not leave because of the praise of the world, because I wanted to indulge in my private sins or enjoy the lusts of the flesh.

Now this one will get me in trouble, oh well...

IF BRM was the one recieving revelation to valuable to be presented to the unprepared masses of the LDS church, why did YHWH take him at a relatively young age for an apostles. Seems YHWH moved him out of his place so he couldn't become church president, which the LDS normally reserve for those men who could potentially "lead the church astray". Are you saying he would've led the church astray with true principles?

[utcowboy]

I love the way you twisted that Kosher... excellent job

If you learn a principle and its true... whether you know its true or not... you know of the princple... are you not condemned for that knowledge?? If you don't follow the princple because, in this life, you don't believe it, won't that be held against you at the time of judgement?

Just want to make sure I understand your position... :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

I know of the principle of confession to a Catholic priest - I don't believe it but I know of it. Does that make me wrong for not practicing it? If someone believed a principle to be false why on earth would they follow it just because other people told them it was right? I have plenty of people tell me that Islam is the only true religion but I don't follow it because they tell me it's true. I don't believe it. I follow what I believe. I can fully understand someone leaving the church if they came to believe it wasn't true. We expect people to leave the churches they were born into and brought up to believe are true and join ours. Then when they find something which leads them to believe our church isn't true there are people who cannot accept that they choose to leave for that reason.

We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege, let them worshop how, where or what they may (unless they are ex-Mormon?)

[gwozz]

Am I the only one who left and yet had no disagreement with doctrine or failed to live the lifestyle? I must be an anomaly.

Well, why then did you leave? Sin is doing something that is not the right choice, which is what God would do.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have already explained why I left. I felt that I couldn't live up to the demands of doing everything. There weren't enough hours in the day and I couldn't get by on less than 8 hours sleep. I felt I didn't belong and would never make it. I felt I hadn't been chosen by Heavenly Father to receive the Gospel and I had gone looking for it as opposed to missionaries seeking me out. I felt alien. I didn't dispute the doctrine or disbelieve it. I just didn't believe in me, us because it applied to my husband too. This was emphasised many times when we were shunned by the church members such as being sent off to the temple on our own for the first time with no escort. To my mind it was yet further confirmation that we we trying to be part of something where we didn't belong. We'd been in the church a little over a year so we didn't give up at the first hurdle. It was about the hundredth, but we were still fairly new.

[KosherXMorg]

I love the way you twisted that Kosher... excellent job

If you learn a principle and its true... whether you know its true or not... you know of the princple... are you not condemned for that knowledge?? If you don't follow the princple because, in this life, you don't believe it, won't that be held against you at the time of judgement?

Just want to make sure I understand your position... :)

A person is only condemned if it is indeed a true principle and they know it's a true principle.

[gwozz]

But they are also condemned if they chose not to go in and learn the true principles--a man cannot be saved in ignorance... That is why every person to ever walk the earth will have an equal opportunity to listen, learn, and obey the principles. As such, God's final judgement will be perfectly just, and we'll all know it.

[Hemidakota]

If the Holy Spirit bears witness of the truth [principle], then that person stands in error. No matter if the person denies it later or claims otherwise.

[utcowboy]

So they have to have a knowledge, in this life, that it is a true principle, right?

Not just hearing the word or teachings but they have to have a personal witness to it?

To me thats an interesting prospect, thanks for the enlightenment