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Understand. The “Quiet Revolution” that happened in Quebec is happening now in the states. That, or it already happened.

During the passover seder it is a common practice to sing this song. It has 15 or more verses. I’ll list the first two. Refrain Dai, dayenu, dai dayenu, Dai dayenu, dayenu, dayenu, dayenu (repeat) 1. Ilu hotzi hotzianu Hotzianu mimitzrayim, Hotzianu mimitzrayim, Dayenu Refrain 2. Ilu natan natan lanu Natan lanu et hatorah Natan lanu et hatorah Dayenu Refrain In english - 1. Had he brought us out of Egypt, Only brought us out of Egypt, Had he brought us out of Egypt, It would have been enough. 2. Had he given us the Torah, Only given us the Torah, Had he given us the Torah, It would have been enough. I was thinking about the song during fast and testimony meeting and I realized that even if there was no hope of salvation or exaltation. That my life, as is, has been enough. I have learned and grown so much. I have experienced love and a wonderful family. I know right from wrong and know why doing the right thing brings joy. I love the scriptures and know that God lives. Last summer, I came home from a busy day at work, pretty spent and possibly a bit irritable (I don’t even remember the circumstances). But I do remember that my 14 year old daughter, without any direction, prepared and presented me with a perfect BLT sandwich. And I mean better than restaurant quality. After I had eaten the first half of the sandwich, I commented to my wife that the experience was worth the trip. She said, what trip? And I replied, the trip here to Earth. And I meant it.

Contraceptive use is up dramatically among LDS as well. My eldest daughter was surprised and disappointed by some of the teachings that she received @ BYU concerning family planning and self care. And infertility is a booming business. Which isn’t surprising after taking contraceptives for a decade and then trying to have your first child during your 30’s or 40’s when it’s financially convenient.

Like I wrote, frankly I don’t know. I have heard some talk of needing some mental stimulation. Likely men are at fault for under appreciating their spouses. Listing to the whisperings of Lucifer’s host - believing that their decisions were less rewarding or less important than a formal job. That they missed out on getting a degree. Some sort of dis-satisfaction… I agree with Goodwill Hunting, “You spent $150,000 on an education that you could have got for $1.50 in late charges @ the local public library.” An education does not require a university… As for enjoying working outside the home. I can’t understand it at all. I work with many over educated men and women. I have way more stimulating conversations with my children. If me or any of the people that I work with won the lottery, we would quit our jobs overnight. I understand working women that must provide basic needs for their families. Its the women that already have supporting husbands that confuse me.

We must also remember a lot of changes can and will take place in the future in the world. Economic turmoil is pretty much guaranteed. Potentially the collapse of the dollar or hyperinflation. Another world war could deprive many families of their bread winners. Plagues could take the lives of many bread winners. With advances in technology many job skills could become obsolete. As persecution increases we could potentially see an increase in break ups of families as loyalties become divided. I'm sure there are even more factors that could influence women's ability to remain out of the workforce.

Breathlessly awaiting Chapter 2...

Do you think some of these women enjoy getting an education or working outside the home? The Catholic church forbids birth control but leadership wonders why family size is shrinking. There’s no grand conspiracy. The easiest answer is that the majority of Catholic women don’t want big families anymore, so they use contraception. Maybe it’s just as easy as that. I’m not commenting on the morality of the choice, just what I think happened.

I've just been listening to my favourite songs by Lady Antebellum and the Dixie Chicks, and having a good cry, but thanking the Lord that Confederate Railroad are standing firm against the evil tide of Wokery. But we need a special hero! Will Brer Rabbit rise from the grave to save us in our hour of need? Brer Rabbit meets Brer Woke One satisfactual day, when Brer Sun was shining mightily amongst the clouds, Brer Rabbit was hopping down the road. And who should Brer Rabbit meet but Miss Meadows and the Gals, out for a stroll. "Good day to you ladies!" said Brer Rabbit as he hopped past, but when he noticed the look on their purty faces he stopped dead in his tracks. "Oh, Brother Rabbit!" said Miss Meadows. "We have just met that frightful gentleman Brer Woke, and he's looking for you!" "He sure is, Brer Rabbit!" cried the Gals. "He's in a mean mood! He's snaggletoothed and double jointed..." "...and YOU're the man he's after!" added Miss Meadows, unnecessarily. "Oh, don't you be worrying about me, Ladies," said Brer Rabbit. "I've outfoxed Brer Fox and Brer Wolf and Brer Bear more times than I can count! Why, as for that Tar Baby..." "Yes, we know, Brer Rabbit!" said Miss Meadows. "But we fear Brer Woke may be another matter! He's had poor Uncle Remus banned! He's had trigger warnings put on Mary Poppins and he's forced Lady Antebellum and the Dixie Chicks to change their names! Poor Scarlett O'Hara won't be saying 'Fiddle De Dee' again for a long time, and he doesn't give... er...a darn about Rhett Butler. He's after Confederate Railroad and Shania Twain and all the Zippedy Doo Dah in the world won't save you this time!" To be continued...

When I read the scriptures and read stories of how people are all about how they a following the dead prophets but seems to ignore and belittle the living prophets... And I often wonder how could they be so foolish. Then I read threads like this and I am like ah so that how it begins. Divine Laws are unchanging... We we Humans in our fallen state are always changing. Part of the role of God's prophets is to bridge that gap. Part of their job is to council advise and direct us on how we can best fulfill Divine Law in an ever changing world. For example the Old Testament has instructions from God's prophets on how to be a good slave owner. No one in there right mind thinks that was a Divine Law or that we are some how running under a lesser Law because owning slaves is no longer considered a Good moral or ethical option. When it comes to Families the most recent, most clear, and most authoritative instructions I think we have been given is the Proclamation on the Family. It says many important things, but it never declares absolutely that Mothers must stay Home. It declares that Mothers are the primary nurtures and that Fathers are the primary providers.. As a Father who has been listening to the prophets and councils of leaders I know that if I were to because state that because my wife has primary nurturing role that I do not need to do any I would be soundly thoroughly and rightly rebuked. Because that is not what it says. It outlines the general roles and responsibilities and then puts the burden of figuring out the right balance on the parents to figure out in prayerful council. Therefore we should expect our leaders support and encourage any family that is following these instructions. Now some devote followers might say they those with working wives are not really hearing from the Lord in these choices that they are letting there own desires override. That might be true but that is an unrighteous judgement for us to be making about other people. Other devote followers might engage in the sin of comparison. We compare what we feel the Lord as commanded us to do for our families and then unrighteously expect that everyone else must get the same message no matter how different they might be. This makes us more like the the 1st hour labors when they saw the payment of the 11th hour laborers Now the church has clearly counciled in the past the wisdom of mothers being able stay home where possible. I really do not see that as having changed. I do see the church more acknowledging, that sometimes people can have a perfectly acceptable to the Lord (as much as any of us fallen people can be acceptable) family arrangement that is not part of the stereotype. Given how many single parents or families that have to deal with very serious issues within the walls of there own home I am sure for many of them this is great comfort. For those that don't have these struggles then be grateful and count your many blessing rather then being prideful that you are "doing it right" or jealous that they somehow are getting an easier option. For those that are feeling betrayed or that the Church leaders are failing.... REPENT before you stray much farther. We might not like the direction the world is going but it is the last days and it is only going to get worse. God will have his leaders adapt and adjust their counsel as needed as the world continues to fall. If we fixate on past counsels we will miss the vital information the Prophets are giving us now.

At work, I heal the lame. People don’t seem to care how many hours it took me to learn my trade. One of the questions I always ask patients is if they have had prior orthopedic surgery. They usually remember the surgery, but rarely if ever, the name of the surgeon. I have spent many hours away from my family due to my profession: 120 hour work weeks during the 5 year residency, emergency surgeries, weekend call and cases. The children notice. My mom worked @ a company that made bathrooms for LaQuinta hotel, while I spent time in day care, preschool, etc. I made it a priority to make sure my children had a mother that was there for them. Occasionally a patient will ask for a hug. And it’s nice. But can’t compare to a hug from a child or spouse.

An exceedingly wise decision. Bravo!

Well after reading all of the above posts and carefully considering the counsel of our church leaders I have firmly resolved that never in this life will I be a stay at home mum.

Well here in Australia the cost of living is disgusting. The housing market here is the worst, second to Canada. I can't afford a house within an hour of my work place, and fuel cost around $2 a litre. I've seen two bedroom houses that need heaps of renovations on 500m sq go for over 650k. I dont live in a city and rentals are insane, and we are heavily taxed. I'm working full time but my wife can't ,and I never wanted her to have to work full time. I am struggling to get ahead. Unless you have both partners working you can't get ahead.

Yup, I could go on for hours about this. I live in CA so it’s hopefully a local issue, but keeping up with the Jones’s is alive and well here - including the LDS church. My wife has never worked outside the house and we have exclusively homeschooled our children. Although we have 11 children we have never had more then 2 cars. I drive a 9 year old pick-up truck with 150,000 miles, it drives great. I make a good living but It seems like the majority of cars I see on the highway or church parking lot are fancier than mine. I’m a bit of an extrovert but I’m observant. I see LDS mothers returning to get an education or work because - frankly I don’t know… As far as I can tell their husbands have good jobs and can adequately provide for the family. Plastic surgery, therapists, antidepressants, RVs, Ski & fishing boats are aplenty. This is from a father son campout last night. The 3 younger boys in the family. They are all wearing hand-me-downs or clothes from goodwill or ebay. If you notice, they caught this fish without a pole. Trick I learned in Chile, wrap the line around a tin can (or Coke can here in the states). You get the lure going with centrifugal force then release, and line up the long axis of the can with the direction of lure release. Works great. Cheap and functional. Didn’t need a bass boat or a pole. And most of the other children wanted to try it. My backup plan to medical school was highschool teacher and coach. I would have been great. And my J.D. wife would still have stayed home and raised our children.

I generally like to take people at their word. If she said she felt the Lord's approval in pursuing a career then who am I to judge? I imagine those experiences are serving her mighty well right about now.

Just no.

As Elder Uchtdorf said: Just Spock it!

I looked around the church website. It's been too long and I don't remember which link I was thinking of, but here's what I found: 1981 General Conference - The Honored Place of Woman - Ezra Taft Benson (President of the Q12 at the time) I think this talk is representative of what folks are harkening back to in this thread. 1995 - THE FAMILY:A PROCLAMATION TO THE WORLD - 1st Presidency & Q12 "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation." Still the gold standard in my opinion. I remember when it came out, people were having basically the same conversation we're having now. People were troubled that "women shouldn't work outside the home" wasn't clearly stated, or even alluded to. Some folks thought this language basically gave the ok to women to send their kids to daycare, as long as when the kid was actually at home, mom did most of the nurturing. 2011 General Conference - LDS Women Are Incredible! - Elder Quentin L. Cook "These are very emotional, personal decisions, but there are two principles that we should always keep in mind. First, no woman should ever feel the need to apologize or feel that her contribution is less significant because she is devoting her primary efforts to raising and nurturing children. Nothing could be more significant in our Father in Heaven’s plan. Second, we should all be careful not to be judgmental or assume that sisters are less valiant if the decision is made to work outside the home. We rarely understand or fully appreciate people’s circumstances. Husbands and wives should prayerfully counsel together, understanding they are accountable to God for their decisions." The whole talk is worth reading through completely. BYU Women’s Conference 2011 - Julie B. Beck "One of the questions that I get frequently is, “Is it okay if I work outside of my home?” You have to know that as an international, global, Relief Society president, that question isn’t always appropriate in all of the world’s countries. There are many, many places where if our women don’t work, they don’t eat. So of course they have to work. The question of whether or not to work is the wrong question. The question is, “Am I aligned with the Lord’s vision of me and what He needs me to become and the roles and responsibilities He gave me in heaven that are not negotiable? Am I aligned with that, or am I trying to escape my duties?” Those are the kinds of things we need to understand." Data is always interesting:

FTR, I did not have your post or your words in mind. I was speaking very generally. I value and usually agree with yout takes on things.

While on the whole, I'm on your side on the issue, I believe both of the bolded words to be an unfair and inaccurate interpretation of my post. My point is that a system works because all or most of the parts are available and functioning in some capacity. Society has removed so many of the parts that the traditional family has come depended on, that we need to make other contingency plans than we have in past generations. For one thing, past generations actually discouraged women from even seeking higher education. My father actually balked at the idea that my wife wanted to get a degree (which my labor would pay for). And, yes, he was fairly typical of his generation. Now, your point about Sis. Johnson's statement: Yes, I am disturbed by it. On its face, it appears to say,"Hey sisters! You really CAN have it all! -- with or without men." But she didn't say that. She said that they, as a couple, sought the Lord's guidance in prayer and faith. And as far as we know, she was perfectly willing to follow the Lord's counsel if she were told to quit school and become a SAHM. That was not discussed in the snippet shown above. What was shown above was that It sounded like she prayerfully made a joint decision between her, her husband, and the Lord. Then Pres. Oaks' response was not about being a lawyer or getting her education. What about that is any different from the messaging we received in generations past? I also acknowledged that this does have a dangerous side to it. People (read: career women) could EASILY take this to mean that women can go and become career women and ignore the family without any spiritual, emotional, mental, or social repercussions for her or her family. Unfortunately MANY women (and men) will take it that way. And they'd all be wrong. Compare Sis Johnson's word to my wife's grandmother who said, "If I had it to do over again, I never would have had kids." And this wasn't because her kids were maladjusted. They were all fine human beings. And none of them became inactive or lost their testimony. But in her old age she decided that she could have had a much more successful career than she did have if only she didn't have to worry about those kids taking up all her time.

I do not believe this. Especially for men who work a professional job, the virtue of living within one's means is almost universally available.

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It is not at all obvious to me that the woman who feels the Lord directing her to have a job is obviously being told by God that she should have a job.

I find that unlikely to be a result of the current messaging.