Finrock

Good Evening James12, You stated: "Of course there is a punishment affixed, I have not said otherwise. The question is, when does the punishment end? I say it ends when we repent. Further I say that punishment alone is not an end in itself, but simply a means to an end." QUESTION: What of those spirits in spirit prison? Does their punishment for their sins end when they repent or when the saving ordinances have been performed on Earth by proxy? -Finrock

Backroads, I was physically and sexually abused by family members and others as a child. I was incapable of forgiving some family members. It was only through the atonement of Jesus Christ that I have been able to forgive and let all of that stuff from the past go. The atonement gives us power to forgive. -Finrock

By hang-out, I mean, being with people, talking to them, being interested in them, and spending time with them. If you mean something else then your meaning is not clear to me. You are mistaken with your other assumption too; I don't argue things just to be argumentative. You don't need to assume otherwise. I simply will not post something if I am not sincere or to purposefully be antagonistic. -Finrock

Hi The Folk Prophet. I hope you are well! :) I think Jesus did hang out. And if he did hang out he must have hung out with people. I'm sure we are all sinners and I think we are all publicans too. So, if Jesus hung out with people, he hung out with publicans and sinners. That's my reasoning. Interestingly Matthew, one of the first apostles of Jesus Christ, was a publican before he was converted. In fact it appears that many of the early disciples of Jesus were publicans because they were rejected by the ruling Jewish class and essentially considered apostates. -Finrock Reference https://books.google.com/books?id=ZHUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA428&lpg=PA428&dq=publicans+as+early+disciples+of+Jesus+Christ&source=bl&ots=Y_yZkgK0Ud&sig=jRgKLm6pdggje8XPvTxEVoCynZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3OY3VbzeCebksASgm4HgAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=publicans%20as%20early%20disciples%20of%20Jesus%20Christ&f=false

You are right. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. God said that those who are meek and humble and become as little children will inherit the kingdom of God. When we enter in to the way through baptism by water and by fire, we do so because we are humble, meek, submissive, and teachable. These are all signs of your conversion. In other words, you can know that you have been converted and have entered in by the way because you are humble, meek, submissive, teachable, and have become as a little child, with Christ as your Father. Now, take this image and continue with it to its logical conclusion. Christ will be our perfect father. He will teach us how to be his sons and daughters. He will guide us as tenderly as a perfect father would. We are his children and he understands that we live in a fallen state. He will teach us the correct traditions. He will be by our side, like a perfect father would with a little child. He knows that children can't expect to be able to carry the burdens of mortality alone or even mostly. He knows precisely how to guide, teach, and instruct each of his children. He is loving, kind, merciful, and just. -Finrock

There is a distinction here, though. Lucifer has no light in him. He doesn't have the spark of divinity. He isn't mortal. He is outer darkness. Satan has a fullness of wickedness, therefore there is no part of the devil that exist in God and there is no part of God that exist in Satan. This is not the case for us mortals, not even for the most wicked of men and women. The scriptures teach not that "we" are an enemy to God, but that the natural man or flesh is an enemy to God. Our spirit is from God. No matter how small the spark within each man or woman, that spark of divinity, that spirit, is clean, pure, and good and has a direct link to God. It is only our ignorance and/or unbelief that provides the barrier. In my life there was a time when I felt like I was trapped inside of a dark chaotic ball of misery. It was literally spirit prison. My spirit was good and pure but I couldn't see past my ignorance and sin. I didn't believe but I was not in outer darkness and my spark of divinity, the light that is within me (to whatever degree) was and has been pure. Only those who have committed the unpardonable sin are without any spark of divinity within them. Who we are is more than our flesh and mortality. We aren't flesh or mortal. Who we are has existed before this earth. We took part in this earth's creation. We were present in the pre-mortal council. Our identity has NOT changed because we become mortal man. We have only forgotten who we are. So what this really points to is that those who know who they are must be striving to declare this to all those who do not know and who will hear. We must teach the homosexual, the heterosexual, the rapist, the murderer, the whatever, that they are NOT mortal man but that they are eternal spirits housed within a mortal frame. This knowledge will allow them to see past the delusions of mortality and the illusions of Satan and grasp hold of greater and eternal principles. With this knowledge and understanding a person can then begin to act according to who they really are. -Finrock

I use to believe that the right way was doing all of those things, etc. I felt that if I was active at church, did my home teaching, was friends with the bishop, went to Church every Sunday, had the priesthood, went to the temple, had family home evening, prayed each morning and night, etc., that I was doing the right things and this is what it meant to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I finally was compelled to learn a different way, the right way, when I acknowledged to myself that I wasn't happy, that I didn't feel at peace, and that I didn't believe or even understand the promise that Jesus Christ made when He said that His yoke was easy and His burden was light. I had no idea what that meant. No matter how hard I worked and tried to do those things, I continued to believe and feel that me, myself at the core, was bad, worthless, evil, etc. I have since learned that God does indeed love me. I have learned that the standard is perfection and therefore we are all doomed to fail without a Savior. Knowing that the standard is perfection and realizing it fully has surprisingly started to relieve my burden. Here was my reasoning. If the standard is perfection then God set us up to fail and He knew it. But, this doesn't make sense because God is good. Therefore, He must have put in to place something that will make up for our inability to be perfect. I have finally realized that once I have had my heart changed and I have been baptized by fire, I don't need to stress about being perfect or even with screwing up. God knows that I will fail. He knows I'm not going to accomplish all of those things on that list. If I try, I am relying on my own strength and my own power and I KNOW this will lead to misery and hell. Inside each of us is a spark of divinity. Inside of us is a spirit that is clean and pure and at one with God. At some point in our journey we need to recognize this truth and latch on to it with all of our hearts. When we do we will see that God is and has been speaking to us and telling us what we need to do each day in order for us to progress. Progression is a personal journey and God will instruct and guide each person based on what they need and desire in order to become perfected. Each person's trials and circumstances will be different and therefore Jesus Christ has promised to work with the individual. As we become more intuned with the Spirit we will find that our lists of tasks and do's and don'ts aren't what we thought they were. There is nothing more pleasing than knowing that what you are doing is precisely what God wants you to do at this moment. When you have this assurance then it becomes easy and it is a joy to accomplish even the most difficult tasks or commandments. When we enter the way through baptism we become apprentices to the Master Jesus Christ. As a humble apprentice I will be in an environment where nothing that I do can cause real or permanent damage. I can experiment, make mistakes, and my Master will not be angry with me, scold me, or punish me. Instead, He will instruct me, lead me, guide me, walk beside me, and help me along the way. As the Master, Jesus bears the burden of responsibility. He bears the burden of my sins, my pains, my sorrows. But, until I believe this and accept this then it is as a gift that is given but which is not received or accepted and so I can't benefit or rejoice in the gift and neither can the person who gives the gift rejoice in it. -Finrock

Hi Folk The Prophet! I think I get what you are saying. I think you are trying to take account for the fact that some people might identify themselves with something that isn't good. I have a slightly different take on this. I believe the statement, "Be who you are" is valid because who you are and who all of us are, are spirit children of God or spirits of God. Our identity is set and permanent. It is a matter of discovering, recognizing, and believing who we truly are. So, when someone states, "Be who you are" then it must be understood that who you are has been defined long before you ever came to this earth and because who you are is good, pure, and from God, then that is precisely how a person should comport themselves. -Finrock

Or, perhaps Zion will have the resources, knowledge, experience, and power to make their own vehicles as needed. Or, perhaps all things will be done by the power of the priesthood. It is very exciting to think about how different our motivations, thoughts, minds, and feelings will be as a society. Imagine a whole community filled with the spirit of God. How different and how wonderful such a society or community will be as compared to modern day Babylon, or Western society. -Finrock

Hellow mordorbund. I hope you are well! :) Although there will be an acutal city of Zion it is important to note that: From what I have read and learned from reading the scriptures and listening to prophets is that city of Zion will be the envy of the world. The good, the poor, the downtrodden, etc. will come to Zion because it will be a bastion of all good things. God will be with the inhabitants of Zion and His power will be there. The inhabitants of Zion will be of one Spirit. They will have the Spirit of God and so they will be in constant and direct communion with God. The wicked will fear Zion and dare not come up against it. Zion will be independent and will not need anything from the outside world. Something else to think about too: -Finrock P.S. I added the name of the person or scripture who gave the quote but it didn't show up so here are my references in case any one is interested: First quote Elder McConkie: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/04/come-let-israel-build-zion?lang=eng&query=zion Second Quote Moses 7: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/7.18?lang=eng#17 Third Quote 2 Nephi 26: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/26.31?lang=eng#30

Now, if by fantastical Connie was meaning that God's blessings are based on fantasy or not real...well then that is a different story. -Finrock

They are ALL fantastical blessings. All blessings from God are great and fantastic. -Finrock

Hi Kirkko. I hope you've been well! :) 2 Nephi 2 is a good place to get some information on this: -Finrock

Hi Str8Shooter! Hope you are well. :) 2 Nephi 2 reads: This plainly teaches us that because of the law given to us by God, we are cut off from God forever. We are born and we live in sin. I want to point out to you that the next part here is very important. Because we are cut off by the law, our redemption does not come in and through the law or because of our actions. "Redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah, who is full of grace and truth". Jesus Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for sin so that the ends of the law may be answered. That means he sacrificed his life so that justice can be fully satisfied "unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit". We will remain sinful and in sin through-out mortality. This is a fact. We will not be saved because we are sinless. We will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom because we finally decided to live a sinless life. It is not by our merits that we are saved, but by the grace of Jesus Christ! We must repent and come to Christ with full purpose of heart and trusting in His works and in His grace to save us and endure to the end! For your question and concern I recommend all of 2 Nephi 2. I believe it address your question completely: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng -Finrock

You said your wife has been there with you and supporting you. If she is encouraging you, please don't take that for granted. She is your angel and she is providing those encouraging words and support that you desire. When she is doing good to you it is as if God were doing good to you because God would do the same thing. Whatever good we have in us, God also possess that same good and so a part of us is in Him and a part of Him is in us. So, God very often uses others to bless our lives and to fulfill His promises. On the other hand, don't give up on learning how to hear and obey the Spirit. I am learning to do this myself and some things that I have learned so far are that you must give yourself time to be quiet, to ponder, but more importantly, to meditate. What you need to know and the encouragement you need is inside of you. You have a spirit that is clean and pure and it has a direct link to God. We just needed to realize that and believe it. Take time each day to meditate and be patient. As I was taught and now know, it is not time wasted! -Finrock

Hi priesthoodpower! The Church has a specific purpose and responsibility which may not include the suggestions that you are making. I think a major part of the challenge of this life is for each invididual or each family to learn to live by the spirit. For instance, the Church teaches the principle is to have Family Home Evening. Now, it is up to you to determine what it is that you or your family needs. There are many, many, things that we can and ought to learn and do by our own initiative. Nothing wrong with listening and obeying the prophets. That is what we ought to do. But the prophets ultimately are there to lead YOU to Christ. You and I and each individual must learn the gospel, learn to hear and obey the Spirit which shall then tell you all things which you should do, say, think, or teach. All truth, all knowledge, all light that you obtain must be obtained and received individually. Once you receive light and truth you can then testify of that light and truth but you cannot control or make whether another individual receives and retains that light and truth. -Finrock

Hi prisonchaplain. I hope you are well! :) I am having a hard time distinguishing the difference between walking WITH God versus walking LIKE God, especially if walking WITH God leads to becoming more like Him.. -Finrock

In my family my children are not allowed to bring electronic devices to church. It is too much of a temptation and a distraction. They bring good old paper scriptures so if they want to look something up, which they usually don't, they have those. I believe sacrament services should be cell phone free, especially. Cell phones should be turned off and put away for one hour. I personally feel that we should treat sacrament meeting and being in the chapel as if we were in the temple. Sacrament meeting already has become too casual in many instances in my opinion. -Finrock

Hi priesthoodpower. I hope you are well! :) First, I wouldn't worry about what other people, whether inside or outside of the church, might think about your kids having been taught truths that are not commonly taught. The idea or what is important is that you are teaching your children the truth, to the best of your knowledge and ability. In my family my wife and I do not shy away from the perceived "tough" issues in church history or other so called tough questions in the church and gospel. We teach core doctrine and gospel topics most of the time but when the questions arise or when appropriate because of other circumstances, we freely speak about what has happened and give informed responses. We try to teach in our family the idea that I am not that much different than most men and most men are not that much different than I am in our core feelings, core motivations, and core life dilemnas. One way to say this is that we are all fallibly human seeking satisfaction/happiness. Another important factor is that we are here on this earth experiencing an experience that we all wanted to be a part of and agreed to be a part of and in fact took part in making it come to pass. So, we knew the conditions of mortality before we entered it. First, we knew that the standard was perfection. Second, we knew that we would ALL fail except for One. We knew, understood, and agreed to enter the world in a fallen state. When we "set forth into the [fallen world]" we did so "...commending [ourselves] unto the Lord [our] God" (Ether 6:4). We are all fallen. We cannot cross the sea of life with our own strength. In fact, it wasn't in the plan. We needed a Savior. We must rely on Jesus Christ and on His atonement. What this means is that we can expect to see men and women being men and women. In other words I want to teach my children that we don't need to expect perfection or unrealistic holiness from those around us. We should not judge others because we are all weak and fallen. Our job is to discern the truth that is being taught, if it is being taught, and then to apply it. I try to teach my children that we can't or shouldn't get stuck on what are ultimately silly things, like seer stones, but try to find the truth that God is trying to teach us or what truth we can learn from the experiences of our forefathers. In the end I think the attitude that it isn't our place to judge how God deals and dealt with His children makes it easy to talk about pretty much any topic in sacred and productive ways. At this point what more can you do? What others might think doesn't matter. -Finrock

Hi David13. Nice to meet you! :) There is a funeral rite or ordinance connected with the gospel of Jesus Christ or Mormon religion. I don't know what a Catholic funeral consist of so I don't know how to compare. In the Mormon faith the funeral can be pretty much how the family request it to be but there is usually a priesthood ordinance performed to dedicate the grave and to provide words of comfort. Also, the deceased member may be buried in special clothing if they have received all LDS temple ordinances. Here is the official word: https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings/20.9?lang=eng#209 -Finrock

I have seen with my eyes a spirit of darkness or an angel of darkness. I have seen in my minds eye, or more so sensed, the presence of spirits around me once when as a youth I attended the temple and was doing baptisms for the dead. I did not see the angel but I was saved by an angel when I was 19 years old while climbing some rocks. I was about 50 feet above the ground. My little brother and I were exploring a quary. There were many large and small pieces and chucks of jagged rocks below us. On the face of the rocks were bore holes or impressions of what was left of bore holes. I was using one of these old bore holes to grasp on to while my feet were on a ledge that was about 6 inches wide. I wanted to cross it to get to another part of the rock. When I got about ten feet on the ledge I saw that the ledge dipped or sloped about five inches, and the face of the rock started to lean outward a bit. To continue across the ledge I needed to hold on to the sloping face and then drop down a few inches to the ledge. Not being experienced at all at rock climbing in this situation I should have turned around. But, in my bravado I continued and dropped my foot on the ledge below. When I did, I lost my balance due to the awkward slope, the precarious ledge, and my inexperience. I began to fall and my mind froze and I didn't know what to do. In an instant, however, both of my arms flew out in front of me kinda like I was getting ready to push down on a bike pump. I fell just far enough for my arms to catch on the slight ledge below and somehow I just stopped falling and regained my balance. I didn't do anything but act foolish and fall. My little brother couldn't believe it. He was certain that he was going to see his brother die, yet somehow I just stopped falling and was able to climb back up to the ledge and return back to where my brother was. I have no explanation for how I saved myself other than that an angel saved me. Had I continued to fall I would have hit the large jagged rocks below and would have probably died. -Finrock

Hi Pam! :) Cool. I hope this change turns out to be helpful and a good thing. -Finrock

Anecdotally I have noticed that the "Learn about the Mormon Church" is light on traffic. I think that it is an important forum and would like to see more people using it. If there is any merit to my anecdotal observations then perhaps one way to increase traffic and/or use of the "Learn about the Mormon Church" forum is to permanently mark this forum so that it shows up in the "LDS.net Popular Forums" section making it more visible. -Finrock

Thank you Marc and JayGlad for your comments. On this issue I agree more with Marc but I'm glad JayGlad posted because it prompted Marc to post more and there have been some good and interesting things said. I've learned and received important thoughts for my own life from the exchange. I struggle with judging others. I can't do it righteously and therefore I just don't want to do it at all. I'm not confident in my ability to judge righteously but I judge people all of the time without even thinking, without prayer, without consideration, without anything but just my own speculations, perpsectives, and my own knowledge and traditions. What I mean, is that when I judge unrighteously (usually I realize this only in hindsight) I am usually thinking that I am being fair, righteous, good, ect. when in reality I've done nothing but rely on my mind, my strength, my wisdom, my knowledge, my intellect, etc. I am trying not to judge other people at all because it is clear from experience that I don't know what I'm doing. -Finrock

Hi Vort! Hope you've been well. :) I am full of pride. God has compelled me to humility and then I try to convince my wife (or others) that she needs to be humble, which leads to more circumstances that compell me to be humble. I wish I could just finally choose to be humble so that my pride will stop creating circumstances that compell me to be humble. I would be completely lost without God's hard blessings, though. -Finrock