Finrock

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  1. Your main argument, I believe, is that to be the pure in heart almost certainly requires one to be sanctified. In order to be sanctified one must have the gift of the Holy Ghost. In order to have the gift of the Holy Ghost one must be baptized by authority, etc. Therefore, only those who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be a part of Zion. I do not deny the logic of your argument yet I am not able to accept it completely at the moment because I do not connect being pure in heart with being sanctified. Or, really, I am uncertain as to their connection. I'd like to hear your view on it so I can consider it. You stated earlier, "'Pure in heart' suggests sanctification". I guess I would like to know why you believe this? What does sanctification mean to you? -Finrock
  2. Good Afternoon Vort! :) I did read and consider your point. I believe that D&C 123:11-12 suggest that the pure in heart consist of more than just members of the Church. I believe that this scripture is saying that the pure in heart can also be those who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men and those who have been kept from the truth because they know not where to find it. -Finrock
  3. God is perfectly merciful and perfectly just. Vort, What you said resonates with me. I struggle deeply with the sentiments and feelings you shared. I have pondered and wrestled with this internally to the point where it has caused great anxiety and distress in my life. The answers that I am getting that I am not living up to perfectly but which I believe will be the answer if I stay true is this: Do not judge others. Believe the best. Drop the expectations you place on others. Then, after having done this, trust in God completely. I think of King Benjamin. I have received great knowledge from God. He has been good to me in my life. God has blessed me at times with His Spirit and I have felt of His love. I do not say this to boast but to show that God has been good to me and has blessed even though I have been unworthly of His blessings and goodness. Because God has blessed me I am no better than anyone else. My experiences with God do not make me better than others. Mosiah 2: So, I believe this is one key. We cannot boast or condescend to anyone because God has blessed us. Mosiah 4: I have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, I have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love and I have received a remission of my sins which caused exceedingly great joy in my soul. Now I must continue to remember and always retain in remembrance the greatness of God and my own nothingness. I must always retain in remembrance God's goodness and His long-suffering towards me, an unworthy creature. I must humble myself even in the depths of humility. I must call on the name of the Lord daily and stand steadfastly in my faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel. If I do this then the promise is that I will always rejoice, I will be filled with the love of God, and I will retain a remission of my sins. Further I will not have a mind to injure another but I will have a mind to live peaceably. I fail in this because I do not keep the conditions King Benjamin mentioned. My simple faith is that if begin to act on the words of King Benjamin that I will receive a mind that will not want to injure another and to live peacably with others. However, I often judge and justify my judgements of others because I feel that they deserve it because they are clearly in the wrong. But, when I do this I am in greater need of repenting. I have begged for mercy from God for my sins. I have nothing or I am nothing without God. God is great and He is able to do all things necessary. I must continuously look to Him and not be distracted or swayed by others and their behavior. God has given great promises to those who take up their cross and follow Him and sacrifice their own selves and their selfishness to God and His goodness: 2 Nephi 8: If we have received a remission of our sins and have tasted of the goodness of God and have been converted to His gospel then we have the assurance that Heavenly Father has our back. Those who try to use us or take advantage of us will be stopped. Those who would dig a pit for those who are the Lord's will fill the pit they dug for the Lord's people. We need not stress or worry. Simply love and serve. -Finrock
  4. Hi Just_A_Guy! Hope you are well. :) You stated: I can confirm, unfortunately through experience, how destructive these character flaws are. My marriage has almost ended because of selfishness and mistrust. Almost nothing fruitfull can be accomplished with these mindsets or dispositions in place. I can tell you that we as a people will never be one if we do not eliminate these character flaws. -Finrock
  5. Hi Marc! My thoughts weren't complete. I'm also having a hard time putting in to words the visual I have in my mind. I also feel that I am likely missing something in my understanding of Zion and so I am interested in continuing this discussion so as to learn and be corrected if necessary. Here is what I believe and understand: I know Zion will be a physical place, an actual city here on this earth. But that is not all, I also understand Zion is a state of being. Zion's borders are not limited to the earth. Zion is not on earth yet in all of its glory. Those who are in heaven with God dwell also in Zion. To be a part of Zion you do not need to be physically near another mortal person. To be of one heart and one mind requires that you have the same spirit within you. If a man is living the gospel of Jesus Christ then his heart and his mind will be one with all those who are also living the gospel of Jesus Christ, regardless of whether the person is a mortal, physical separation, or membership in an organization. Dwelling in righteousness does not require membership in a particular organization. You can dwell in righteousness no matter where you are at. So, what does it mean to have no poor among them? The way that I see things is that right now the members of Zion are scattered still across the world. Many of Zion's inhabitants are fooled by the craftiness of men and so have not yet been gathered. Others are pure in heart and living in rigtheousness but do not yet know or have access to the ordinances of the gospel. Others have been born in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and they have received the ordinances and they have access to all that God has revealed in the latter-days to His prophets. The way that I understand it is that the work to gather and bring all of Zion together in its glory on earth has already commenced. Eventually the division between good and evil on this earth will be so stark that the true versus the false members of Zion will be revealed and I believe that members of the Church will be surprised by how many people who are not members of this Church will be found on the side of Zion and how many members of the Church will be found to be on the side of Babylon. Eventually all those who have had one heart and mind, have dwelt in righteousness, and have done what they can so that no poor are among them will receive the saving ordinances and will finally be united "officially" with the rest of the members of Zion on the earth. Zion the great city will be founded and the Zion of heaven will be united with the Zion of earth. -Finrock
  6. My first thought is that the scriptures clearly teach that Zion are the pure in heart. The plain meaning is just that. There are no qualifiers stating that only the pure in heart who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints qualify. But, more importantly there have been several times as I have read the scriptures and pondered these things where the Spirit has whispered to me that the elect and the pure in heart are all over the earth and those who will belong to Zion or who are a part of Zion is not restricted to the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days Saints. First, consider this scripture: 1 Nephi 1 Notice that Lehi not only testified of the wickedness of the Jews but Lehi testified of the coming of a Messiah and "also the redemption of the world". Lehi taught that the Messiah would not just come to rescue the Israelites, or the Lord's chosen people, but that He would redeem the whole world!.This was blasphemy to the established religion or church in Jerusalem. When the Jews heard that Lehi testified that someone other than the chosen people, the Lord's covenant people, would be saved, they were angry with Lehi. In 2 Nephi chapter 28 Nephi prophesies about the last days. He is clearly speaking about the world and the very churches that will be established around the world in the last days. Meaning, his words are not addressed to those in Zion but about those who have not yet entered in to the covenant of baptism. In speaking about the false churches in the last days and those who are associated with them or fooled by them, Nephi says: I believe it is arrogant and condescending to believe and to think that the humble followers of Christ can only be found within the borders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The humble followers of Christ are a part of Zion, notwithstanding they have not joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Just as anyone who has lived and has followed Christ, they will in no wise lose their reward because of some technicality. In testifying how important it is to make the truth of the gospel known to all the world, Joseph Smith wrote in D&C 123:11-12: This makes it clear to me that the pure in heart are found all over the world and this is why it is imperative that we make this message known to them so that they can receive the saving ordinances and get access to all that God has revealed to His children in these latter-days. I don't believe that these pure in heart will be reject from Zion because of a legalism. -Finrock
  7. I remember a short talk that Monson gave where in my opinion he made a prophecy. I remember this talk to this day and have actually been looking and waiting to see if the prophecy has been or is being fulfilled. Here is the part that I believe is prophetic (it was given in 2008): https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/welcome-to-conference?lang=eng&query=ask+you+to+pray -Finrock
  8. Miracles are real. They are all around us. For instance most people do not understand or believe that it is a miracle that we can move our hands. Most people do not understand or believe that it is a miracle that we do not float in to space because of gravity (gravity is a miracle). Because of blindness most of God's children take the miracles they experience every day for granted because they have experienced the miracles for they whole life. They mistakenly think that miraculous every day events are mundane every day events. I say this while at the same time I am a hypocrite. I take God's goodness and the miracles He blesses me with for granted everyday! I have only begun to see, in small glimpses, how miraculous all of God's works are! Take for a moment to consider all that is happening around you. Try to see things as a child would see them. A child sees the world as a miracle because they haven't been blinded yet. We mistakenly think that the child is naive to believe that a leaf is a miracle, but the truth is that the child is right! I have also witnessed miracles that I do not get exposed to every day. This too have been just as real as the miracle of walking, for instance. -Finrock
  9. There is great wisdom in what James12 shared with you. I would not reject without pondering it and meditating upon it. I have struggled in my marriage over the years. In some ways I have felt like you have. I have also struggled with wanting my wife to make changes and have fallen in to the trap of repeatedly judging her. Ultimately I have decided that I care more about my relationship than I do about my selfishness. As long as your spouse isn't being abusive you must simply love them. Do not judge them. When I married my spouse one big reason I did so was so that I could have a companion who would be there with me through thick and through thin. I wanted to get married so that I could always have a friend in life, especially during the most difficult times when I might be suffering in sin, illness, or any other difficulty. It is hard to see past your own hurt and pain. However, as James12 suggested, when we stop judging and start just focus on changing our lives and becoming like Jesus Christ we will find that we can bear the pain and the rejection and the hurt that comes from a spouse who isn't treating you the way that you wish they were. It is important that you do not do things for any other purpose other than to glorify Christ and God. Don't do things because you want your husband to change. Do all that you do for Jesus. Look to Him for your reward and you will NEVER be disappointed. Pray for your husband. Pray to have a soft heart. Pray that you and your husband will be humbled. Be patient. My marriage has gotten better not necessarily because anything external to me has changed but because I have decided to change how I deal with reality. Yes, my wife has changed too but it wasn't because of anything I did. I can live at peace, feel happy, and know that I am doing well despite what is going on around me. -Finrock
  10. If the ideas/words are good then the voice inside my head is God, no matter what medium God used to relay a message to me in the past. God uses people and other means to speak to us. Any "voice" that entices us to do good and/or to believe in Christ is from God. I purposefully reject the notion that the good idea/voice that I hear inside my head is just random or intuition. I purposefully and consciously have decided to believe that all good things are from God and to listen and obey whenever I am exposed to a good voice/thought/idea/notion/etc. -Finrock P.S. I just want to add that I have not mastered doing what I describe above. It is something that I believe and what I try to subscribe to in my life. I believe in general I ignore and miss many of the messages that God is sending my way each day because of blindness, pride, sin, etc. Yeah, I'm woefully imperfect!
  11. I have highly favored the Meso-American model, however, one question that the Meso-American model has left me wondering about were the promises in the Book of Mormon that strongly imply the United States as the promised land or the land that would be protected and kept free if the people as a whole obeyed God. In no other country on the American continent are we able to see the promises made in the Book of Mormon to the inhabitants of this land as fully fulfilled as in the United States. 1 Nephi 2:20 Ehter 2:10 1 Nephi 13:30 So, I have concluded that the choice land above all other lands is not the whole American continent, north and south. The blessings and promises and the descriptions of the blessings given in the Book of Mormon do not support a Meso-American land or country. I hope that makes sense. -Finrock
  12. Good Morning yjacket! I hope you've been doing really good. :) I want to confirm what you stated. I learned from someone wise that the battlefield in life truly is the mind. If we control our mind, our thoughts, we control our life. There is power in this principle because it is completely true. There are no exceptions. Those who start praticing and disciplining their minds and how they think will soon discover that they will have tremendous power over their life and over the circumstances they find themselves in. There is a pervasive false perception that is found through-out the population of the earth that we are powerless to control what happens to us. There is a pervasive victim mentality. There is a pervasive mentality that if only other people would be different our life would be better, happier, more peaceful, etc. Our mind is truly where everything takes place. What we perceive, everything we perceive in life, gets filtered by our brains and our mind. If we can change our minds (and we CAN through the power of the atonement) then we will literally be changing reality. If we can control our thoughts we can literally control much of our environment. Nothing externally will have changed, only how we perceive our experiences and what meaning we assign to it. I am grateful that God put me in to a family where I have had to overcome the effects of being physically and sexually abused. I am grateful for the many weaknesses that God has given me. When I think of the fact that God placed me in to the environment that He did I can think of it as, "How could God be so cruel to place me in to an abusive environment?" or I can think "God has tremendous confidence in me because He placed me in a difficult environment knowing that I would be able to overcome." I have begun to think and believe that God has a plan for me and that my weaknesses are the very things I needed to have given to me so that I can progress to become a God. As I have latched on to this idea I have found myself feeling tremendous gratitude for God and for His wonderful plan. He has been so good to me. Because of my weaknesses I have been made in to a better man. God has been with me the whole time. I look forward to discovering my weaknesses and for the trials God has for me. Each one leaves me a better person when the period is done. This is a result of changing how I think and what I think. The battle that we all are engaging truly is taking place in the mind. Don't let the Adversary fool you in to thinking the external world has any control over you or power over you! -Finrock
  13. Believe the best. It's one of the ABC's of marriage but it has a wider application and utility. Not too long ago I made a personal committment to believe the best of other people and this simple change in how I think has made a significant difference in the quality of my life and how I feel about myself and others. It started out with me wanting to have a better relationship with some family members. I soon discovered that I should not limit this attitude to just a few select people but that I should adopt this as how I interact with all people, regardless of who they are and what the situation is. When I believe the best of others then I am less likely to be offended. I have found that I am able to understand other people a little bit better because I am not assuming that they are being negative or even if they are actually being negative, believing the best about them reminds me that they are just people like me, struggling to deal with life, their feelings, emotions, or weaknesses. I can have empathy and not be offended by words or actions which typically are intended to do harm when I believe the best of others. Believing the best of others has allowed me to have more fruitful discussions in life and on this forum. It has been wonderful. Inside of each person is a spirit that is clean and pure. Each person has a special relationship with Heavenly Father and has the potential of being gods and goddesses. I am not more special or less special than others. We are all essentially in the same condition, living with essentially the same struggles, working out our salvation the best that we can with the knowledge, abilities, and talents that we have been given or which we have gained through our magnifying that which we have. Believe the best. -Finrock
  14. Good afternoon prisonchaplain! I hope you've been well. :) I also associate being filled with the spirit with sanctification. I believe that in the Book of Mosiah, in the Book of Mormon the experience that the people of King Benjamin experienced was one of being spirit filled and consequently sanctified. I believe that that this experience is associated with being baptized by fire or our spiritual rebirth. In other words, I believe in being born again and being filled with the spirit is an indicator that this event has occurred in your life. -Finrock
  15. Hebrews 11:1 I am left wondering what does the word substance mean as it is being used in this scripture. The footnotes say "assurance, basis, foundation". But, even with that, what does it mean. Faith is the basis or the foundation of things hoped for. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Substance could mean, "ultimate reality that underlies all outward manifestations and change" (merriamwebster.com). Could that definition fit? Is faith the ultimate underlying reality that is hoped for? If it is, what does that even mean? From what I am gathering the Greek word used in Hebrews is "hupostasis" which can be translated as substance. Interesting. Faith is not what I think it is or thought it was. -Finrock
  16. I see Vort has posted this but I think it is important for people to know and understand that Satan had no plan. He was a liar from the beginning. He knew that the only way we could return back to Heavenly Father would be through THE Plan of Happiness. He knew that rebelling against God's plan would not save but damn God's children. So, Lucifer had no plan. There is only ONE plan that works. Only ONE way to return back to Heavenly Father. -Finrock
  17. Here is my experience. We suffer from out sins until we repent. There is no set amount. If we don't change then we will continue to suffer because we continue to live in sin or in our blindness, is what the scriptures say. The atonement doesn't take away suffering, per se, but what it does do is enable a person to endure suffering well and with joy. The atonement provides power for you to change. This has been critical for my understanding of the atonement. It has been so important for me to understand that the atonement is an enabling power. It doesn't take away suffering. Let me illustrate this by using myown life. I was sexually abused as a child and was exposed to pornography at a very young age (at least 4 years old). I grew up with a sexual and pornography addiction. For all intents and purposes, I was born with a sex and pornography addiction. For many years I was stuck with my addictions. I struggled to change and to overcome. I tried everything. I went to church, I did my callings, I tried to stop viewing the stuff, I went on a mission, I paid my tithing, I went to the temple, I spoke with the Bishop, SP, I prayed, I read the scriptures, I tried to do my callings, HT, etc. Yet, despite all my efforts, I could not overcome my sins. To keep this short I will say that eventually I came to realize that I had no power to overcome my sins and my addictions alone. In fact, I came to realize that I was foolish for thinking that I could somehow man handle my weaknesses and just "will" them away. No, it takes the power of God to change one's heart. It takes the power of God in order for mankind to change. The Atonement of Jesus Christ provides the power. As we act in simple humility and meekness, we will be given tasks and things that we do, for sure, but these tasks are simply a token of our obedience. Our actions that we do, not matter what they are, will not save us. If we obey God and do the things He asks, He has promised to save us and to redeem us. It is God's work to redeem us. It is His responsibility to change me. It is my responsibility to allow Him to change me. Somehow, because of the atonement, my simple, useless acts of obedience, become powerful tools to change my heart. Remember too that replacing a stony heart with a heart of flesh is a major operation and it can take time to complete. Being patient with the process is also key. -Finrock
  18. There is no life in homosexual principles. It is a dead end. Our species cannot survive if we subscribe to homosexual principles. Life is in heterosexual principles. There is no other way for our species to live except through the principles of heterosexuality. Homosexuality cannot exist without heterosexuality. Heterosexuality has primacy in nature and in principle. It doesn't matter which individual is capable or not capable of procreating. There is no life in homosexual principles. It is an impossibility and that is what matters to the question of marriage. Godless, you and millions of others have diluted yourselves in to believing a fictional version of reality. Only by denying reality can you successfully argue that homosexual "marriage" is "good" for society or on equal footing with authenticate marriage. The reality that you are denying is that homosexuals and homosexual "marriages" cannot be relied on for the long term survival and good of the human race. We just can't. If a society supports homosexual unions it will ALWAYS be subsidized (so to speak) on the back of real marriage up until society just can't afford or just doesn't have the luxury any more to support a way of life that literally doesn't bear fruit or seed. -Finrock
  19. Good Afternoon carlimac, I'm sorry that you experienced such behavior from those people on Facebook. Its really tough to have someone ridicule you and treat your sacred beliefs with such disdain. There is confusion inside and outside of the Church as to how to deal with these things and people seem to be conflating and mixing up philosophies. I don't know how often members of the Church really consider life on the terms that I detailed. Meaning, I read and hear posts from members of the Church and their message seems to ignore the fact that God is real, we are literally His children and He has a plan for us. Of course most people on this earth do not know or understand the fact that they are God's children, however, when you do know this an understand this then you can at least approach the question from the right perspective and you will not be fooled by some of the very persuasive and pleasing messages that are being presented but which are counter to what God has revealed. The modern day justification for allowing all sorts of behavior uses terms such as love and tolerance to try to make their message appealing to many people, and it works. Most people want to be good and do good. They are simply confused as to what love is and what tolerance is. So, my message wasn't meant to be something that you go and say to those who support transgender or homosexual relationships, not unless the Spirit prompts you, but rather I wanted to cut out the clutter and get to the core of the issue so as to provide a clear picture as to what we are talking about and what is really at stake. I hope that my words will be helpful to someone in seeing what it is we are really talking about. -Finrock
  20. I have found that I am less prone to find fault with some behavior if I myself am guilty of said behavior. I only have anecdotes for this but it appears to me that our leaders in government are but a reflection of the general attitude of the population. What I mean is that the people, on the whole, will vote in those candidates that they feel they connect with. Unfortunately many people seem to connect with lying, stealing, and being worldly and petty. -Finrock
  21. Good Morning james12, I appreciate you taking the time to share your ideas and to answer my questions. I have subscribed to the penal substitution idea of the atonement however I have not considered specifically the idea that "penal substitution" line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that "there is an end to suffering even if a person fails to repent" and that this line of reasoning is problematic. Now that I am thinking of it, in the past I have thought along the lines that if a person does not repent in mortality then they will have to suffer some punishment in order to be forgiven or in order for them to pay the price of the sin and that after they had paid the price they would stop suffering. Of course I have not believed that the person will suffer to the same degree as Christ did but that they will suffer for their own sins until the price is paid. What has caused me to pause and consider your words, however, is that in my life I have experienced the condition that if I do not repent I continue to suffer and my condition doesn't get better until I actually change what I am doing, but more importantly, change what and how I am thinking. But, the scriptures still state that our suffering can end because Jesus Christ suffered. So, clearly Jesus's suffering is tied to our suffering. Surely there is a relationship. If Christ had not suffered, could we repent? Perhaps it is the fact that without Christ suffering the option or possibility of changing or repenting would not even be available. Meaning, we can only repent because Christ has suffered. Am I being clear and making sense? -Finrock
  22. I start with the axiom that we are all children of God and that mortality is not our natural condition. This life should be viewed and measured from the context of what is our ultimate purpose for being here on this earth. So, we all started out "healthy" as spirits. When we enter mortality we immediately become unhealthy due to the natural man. As we experience mortality we either progress towards a return to our natural state, which is being with God, or we digress further from our natural state by becoming more separated from God. Moving towards God is "healthy" whereas moving away from God is "unhealthy". The healthiest mental state possible is having the mind of God. Any deviation from this standard represents an illness to some degree. Committing sin causes mental illness. If we exist in a state of rebellion against God to any degree, to that same degree we are suffering from a mental illness. When we live in sin or when we adopt sinful philosophies we are necessarily delusional and are suffering a form of mental illness. Bruce Jenner is suffering from a severe form of mental illness and because our society in large measure is suffering from mental illness as well, it doesn't even recognize that this is a problem and should not be supported but rather we should be doing something to help this poor fellow and people like him. We should be helping one another become more like Heavenly Father. We should be helping our brothers and sisters know who they are and what their potential is. When we forget this basic purpose and basic knowledge and we try to segregate life in to boxes then we do ourselves and others a disservice because we become enablers and supporters of behavior that will lead people to hell rather than to happiness and we will suffer right along side them. So, this isn't just a case where we can say, "Well, it doesn't hurt me, so why should I care?" If God didn't exist, and if we weren't brothers and sisters, and if the Plan of Salvation was false then maybe we could get away with stating that things like this don't hurt anybody so why should we care. But because God is real and because the Plan of Salvation is real it means that we are all affected by what each person does to some degree. Because we are all connected we ought to be fighting for the cause of Zion rather than just apathetically allowing the notions of what is normal and healthy to be degraded in society to the point where eventually anything and everything goes. -Finrock
  23. james12, Another question: Assuming that what you say is true, how does this knowledge help an individual in their progression? In other words, why is it so important to understand that the atonement is not penal substitution? What practical benefit does this have or is the distinction academic, so to speak? Again, assuming that what you say is true, it would appear that many people have been able to gain access to the atonement by believing in the penal substitution idea of the atonement. How would their experience be any different if they believed as you did? Perhaps my questions can't be answered by you or anyone so I apologize if they are inappropriate in anyway. -Finrock
  24. Hi James12, I wasn't very clear in my description because I agree that just because saving ordinances are performed on earth does not mean that the spirit is freed from spirit prison. However, does a spirit have to wait until the saving ordinances have been performed before they can repent? I guess I was assuming that the spirit in spirit prison has repented but simply has not been able to leave spirit prison because the saving ordinances have not been performed on earth for them. That whole assumption, that they can't leave spirit prison until ordinances have been performed, could be false I suppose, but I just wanted to clarify that this is what I was thinking in my mind when I made my post. -Finrock
  25. The Guide to the Scriptures state the following: "Jesus Christ is the great Redeemer of mankind because he, through his atonement, paid the price for the sins of mankind and made possible the resurrection of all people" (Emphasis added). Price for sins or paid the price for sins is not found in scripture. What is found is: "12 And forgive us our adebts, as we bforgive our debtors." Matt. 6:12 And "4 And aforgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is bindebted to us. cAnd lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." Luke 11:4 Forgiving debts would seem to imply some sort of transference, would it not? -Finrock