ryanh

I’ve done the traditional wedding celebration, with dinners, temple, and reception afterwards. It was fun, but looking back, highly overrated, and not worth it. I suggest keeping it as simple as possible. It'll cost three times as much as you plan, and be twice as hard to pull off, so focus on keeping it as simple as possible is my $0.02. Also, it is FAR to easy for spiritual aspects of a marriage to be lost amid all of the temporal 'demands'. Your time in the temple will be very brief compared to all of the other events unfortunately. As far as prioritizing the budget . . . #1 - by far should be your honeymoon IMO. Photos, silk flowers, frozen cake tops, etc, etc are all fun and represent memories and are good, but pale in comparison to the time you will spend together on your honeymoon. That’s the time to take photos and write journal entries. (and no, I’m not talking about physical relations – just the chance to spend 24/7 together and talk about every topic imaginable in a completely uninterrupted setting). You don't have to go somewhere extravagant, but go somewhere, away from all of the rest of life, and spend at least a week together. Leave the cell phones off, the computers at home, and just take it easy and enjoy. This marriage is for YOU TWO, not everyone else. What you do in the temple, and on your honeymoon will be the most impactful to YOU. What memories and special occasions you give to everyone else will do very little to get your marriage off on the right foot. Spending your resources on the honeymoon will contribute to getting your marriage off on the right footing.

"When a spouse is thinking of getting divorced", there clearly is a whole lot that is going wrong. But to present it that it is only the one considering the divorce that is the source of the wrong is plain foolish. Its akin to accusing a rape victim of being the reason she/he was raped. You have great advice, but I think you must not understand that the way you present it in relation to marriage woes will almost always cause the person hurting to reject it outright because of how condemning it comes across. You may think that divorce is never an acceptable option, and thereby harshly judge those that are contemplating it, however, I agree with Elder Oaks far more than I agree with your stance - there ARE times that divorce is not only acceptable, but good.

While every situation is unique, and there are times that role reversal is appropriate, espousing it as applicable to the general population would appear to be contrary to the Proclamation on the Family.

It is always so much easier to think we see the solutions from the outside of the situation. It is so much different, and so much more difficult actually being in the various nuances of each individual situation. My heart goes out to you for the struggles you are having. I've experienced something similar, and it is so very difficult. What would I do in your situation? I would week firm and clear guidance from Heavenly Father. He will answer and guide you if you will seek Him out appropriately. I fully trust that is the case. (the trick is for us to be able to hear and recognize the whisperings) Everyone's situation is so unique, and we mortals cannot see the results of our own (or other's) choices. In situations as critical as yours, you need His guidance. My personal feelings are concern that it seems you are not able to voice how you are feeling without physical retribution. That makes cooperation and resolution very difficult, if not impossible. Is there a way to let him know you are starting to consider ending the relationship without it causing you harm?

Past the point of forgivenes? Not at all. That should not be used as an excuse to allow yourself to do more because you can be forgiven for more, but you most certainly are not past the point of forgiveness. Look to the Book of Mormon and you will find examples of far worse sins being forgiven.

If it were me, I'd fork over the $ to buy her a weeks worth of meds even if I had to borrow to do so! (I also might be tempted to slip some sort of stimulant into whatever she is drinking!!!)

I left on my mission 2.5 years after being baptized. Never read in the scriptures prior to taking the discussions. I didn't have the money to go. I was lucky in that some of my family was supportive of the decision to serve (even though others were not). So, I know a lot of what you are facing. I experienced it myself. What is important in being a missionary is the Spirit. You cannot fail if you are guided by the Holy Ghost. You can be unlearned, crippled, or inhibited, but if you carry the Spirit to the hearts of others, there is no way you can fail. Don't even for a second think that you can't be a successful and meaningful missionary.

How about a fatter wallet and a thinner body, the reverse of what I was 'blessed' with last year!

FT and Beef, I really don't know what you two are talking about. Perhaps its just my perspective being different because of dating post divorce. Honestly, I have not observed what is being described.

I would suggest you listen to the talk linked to above - Marriage is Honorable - before being so sure of that conclusion. Elder McConkie’s - Celestial Marriage - is another very important one for an understanding.Rest assured, there are repercussions. Any and all choices have repercussions. Even the choice to not go to church once has some level of repercussions (even if not measurable to us). I cannot agree there are no repercussions other than if the couple never follows through.

Getting enough sleep? Sleep can be heavily tied to mood. Any history of having more troubles in the winter than other times of year? It is the season for SAD.

I appreciate your thought and input. I did expect this post, as I recall our discussions on this very topic before. It will be interesting to "replay" this episode of life with the full understandings of the eternities to be able to comprehend all of the positives and negatives that stemmed from your decision. You often reason out very well the various facets of an issue. What is your take on #4? Where it is a choice that is not so clear, doesn't have the flavoring of family implications, and doesn't have the implications of transgressions committed?

LM - I don't disagree at all that in situation #5 - where a couple are shacking up, or especially if there are children already, marriage civilly is a great step, and progress. But, what about situations #3 and #4? What are your thoughts/feelings about whether those choices are progression, stagnation, or regression?

Yes, not a curse, but it is damning. Damning in that progress is halted, prevented.

And how, precisely, do you come to that conclusion? Thinking through the likely lines of reason and sources of info (including the HoI) I could likely use the same process to come to a conclusion that divorce is "okay" with God. Sure, in some instances, divorce is "okay", acceptable, even necessary (Oaks – Divorce) but that doesn't mean it is without repercussions, nor something that He detests.

Good advice (even if a bit misdirected). I’ve heard from many that hold the same opinion as it relates to those in categories 3-5. However, I want to understand the spiritual implications, not seek out advice. If the Gospel really is: "line upon line, precept upon precept, climbing the ladder one rung at a time", then why wouldn't there be an expectation to do a bit of climbing to do something right in the first place? Would you suggest a person not fully repent before being baptized? (i.e. not climbing the necessary rungs first) Or would you suggest an investigator just go ahead and give it a try to live the Gospel, but not worry about being baptized until a year from deciding they wanted to be baptized? For myself, I don't accept "figure[ing] God is ok with it" as acceptable rationalization for one of the most important decisions a person will make in their life.

My first reaction to 3 and 4 is not a positive one – that they do indeed have negative spiritual repercussions. However, that is strongly tempered with a qualifier that each situation is unique. I’m not sure that the couple would ever come to the temple a year later to perform the sealing, and find themselves wholly in the same position they would have been had they gone to the temple first. I feel that, while much lesser than sexual transgression, there is some loss, some lack of blessings, for having one’s sights set upon the sun, but only reaching the moon. This thought is fleshed out to a greater degree for me when, as President Kimball tells a story in Marriage is Honorable of a couple that is killed in a car crash after their civil marriage, but prior to the time they could be sealed a year later. What is their state, having known the importance of the sealing ordinance, having chosen to not make it their priority, and then died and passed into the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed? In the Marriage is Honorable talk, President Kimball also makes some pretty plain statements that seem to indicate choosing marriage outside of the temple, when the importance of sealing ordinances are know, is a mockery of the Lord. “Remember, ‘for this is a day of warning,’ the scripture says, ‘and not a day of many words. For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in the last days’ (D&C 63:58). Can you think of any worse mockery than a civil marriage, than no marriage at all? ‘Behold, I am Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ’ (D&C 63:60). Marriage should be solemnized in the holy temple, by an appointed leader ordained by the prophet who holds the keys. . . . And so we wonder why, with all these blessings and promises, men will fail to marry and fail to marry right, and thus waste their lives in a frozen wilderness. Why will any person ever give a single thought to a marriage out of the temple and jeopardize those glories that are available?” I can’t say I have any better insight on situation #5 where there was transgression preventing the couple from going to the temple. Setting aside the transgression and the necessary repentance for that, is marriage civilly as a stepping stone really acceptable before the Lord? Or, generally speaking, would he rather have us back out, repent and change our ways, and find someone with whom we can do it “right”?

I have heard a number of opposing opinions, and hope to hear many more from this site. I have searched the archives, and did find a couple threads that tangentially touched upon the topic of choosing civil marriage before temple sealing, but not sufficiently to address what I am looking for. I suppose that like so many things in the Gospel, the exact particulars of what is expected of a person in relation to choosing the route of marriage is custom tailored by the Lord to their situation. Still, like many ordinances, I would also expect some absolutes to be applicable also. I can see a few reasons for choosing to first marry civilly rather than within the temple in a sealing ordinance. 1 - Country of residence does not recognize a temple sealing as a legitimate marriage, and requires a civil marriage first. The HoI and common sense covers this pretty clearly. No spiritual implications so long as the couple immediately makes their way to the temple. 2 - Sealing ordinance is not of importance to one or both partners. I think this is probably the most cut and dried situation (other than #1) for understanding spiritual implications. President Kimball's 1973 BYU Fireside - Marriage is Honorable - pretty well addresses this. King Benjamin's address (now is the time to perform the labors of this life) also provides some basis for evaluating the implications. 3 - Non-member family considerations. I know there are some that have chosen to be married civilly in order for non-member family to be able to participate. Some of the past threads on .net touch upon this. It seems that there would be at least some level of spiritual implications related to this decision as the couple, while following noble desires, at least in some small part is putting worldly decisions ahead of spiritual choices with eternal implications. 4 - Fear of / escape from temptation. This is something I have been facing myself. For those that have never been in the situation of considering remarriage - let me just say you likely have no clue how hard it is. The temptations the first time around, when young and still a virgin, absolutely pale in comparison to the temptations of two previously married individuals attempting to court enough to make the decision, and once the decision is made, then wait for a period while paperwork is being processed. I've come to realize this is not an uncommon reason for people to consider a civil marriage prior to seeking a sealing ordinance a year later - to avoid very serious transgression. 5 - Transgression. The couple has become unworthy to enter the temple, and may be unworthy to do so for at least a year. They and their Bishop(s) know that once a proverbial pandora's box has been opened, it is incredibly difficult to close it for an extended period of time. For reasons 3-5 where the implications are not so clear, what are your thoughts on the spiritual implications? Does the choice to enter into a civil union first have negative spiritual repercussions? Or do you think it is just as valid and honorable as marrying in the temple first? Why?

Dreamer3: Think about how it would be if the shoe was on the other foot. What if your husband was going to get together with an old fling that he still had very strong feelings for, wanted to "care for" and help out emotionally, and you knew he is/was more in love with her than he ever was with you? How would that make you feel? Would you want him to go through with such a meeting, or would you prefer that he cleave solely unto you and to none else, forgetting all past connections?

Glad to see you on here LS. Was wondering about you just a week or two ago.

I'm right there with Dravin on this one. Being offended to the poing of posting on a forum over someone else's word choice, to me, is a great example of "nit pick[ing] and start[ing] an argument that isn't even there"! You have picked out one word, focused on that, and from an outsiders point of view, discarded the entire intent of your friends message to herself. It honestly makes me stop and wonder if there isn't a oversensitivity because something similar (being dissed and the girl saying she "deserved" better) has been done (or is being done) to you. We all have those sore spots, whether they came from past girfriends/boyfriends/spouses, onery siblings, or inherent insecurities. It is important though to recognize that the issue is within ourselves any time we have an issue with someone else. Matthew 7:3

Absoutely not!!! Name me one talk by a general authority on marriage that doesn't mention that successful marriage is hard work. Dang, even Spencer Kimball's talk in 1976 on Marriage and Divorce is rife with all sorts of references to how hard and how much work a good, happy marriage is. I for one am glad that those who are spokespersons for the church are real, and speak the truth. Esp when it comes to the real topic of this thread - the difficulties of missions. I had only been a member about 2 years when I put in my papers to serve. There was NO question that a mission would be very hard. The truth was out there and plainly taught ahead of time.

Gwen, that's called human nature and natural tendencies, and exists independent of LDS culture. Just because it exists within the LDS culture does not mean LDS culture causes it. Correlation does not mean causation. I strongly disagree that LDS culture attempts to stiffle discussion of difficulties. On the contrary! There may be people within the church that misunderstand, and because they are unable to grasp the how of being happy admist trials, they falteringly attempt to "fake it". That is not LDS culture made though. You might enjoy a talk where Bruce C. Hafen describes these types of people. The "Level 1" understandings of life. They cannot appropriately deal with the discrepency between reality and ideal, and therefore try to pretend there is no discrepency. See: Love is Not Blind

Bl8tant, I know a bit of what you are going through. It was about a year and a half ago that I was going through the difficulties and situational depression that you are in. It hurts, I know. It is hard, I know. It wasn't my idea to divorce, and I felt that the relationship could work. Just hold on, it does get better. I look back now, and realize that despite the pain and difficulties, it was probably the greatest blessing of my life, aside from my testimony of the Gospel. It is true, that sometimes when one door closes, it is because the Lord is seeking our best interest, and is attempting to bless us. It can be a blessing if we only let it be so. I wish I had power to covey what I'm thinking/feeling in relation to your situation. But I feel wholly inadequate to do so. What keeps coming to mind is a talk by Elder Holland. I feel the whole talk is applicable, and have to resist the urge to copy the whole text here. I would strongly urge you to read or listen to the entire talk - several times. Below are a few excerpts. "But tonight’s message is that when you have to, you can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in any situation you are in. Indeed, let me say that even a little stronger: You can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in the most miserable experiences of your life—in the worst settings, while enduring the most painful injustices, when facing the most insurmountable odds and opposition you have ever faced. "Now let’s talk about those propositions for a moment. Every one of us, in one way or another, great or small, dramatic or incidental, is going to spend a little time in Liberty Jail—spiritually speaking. We will face things we do not want to face for reasons that may not have been our fault. Indeed, we may face difficult circumstances for reasons that were absolutely right and proper, reasons that came because we were trying to keep the commandments of the Lord. We may face persecution; we may endure heartache and separation from loved ones; we may be hungry and cold and forlorn. Yes, before our lives are over we may all be given a little taste of what the prophets faced often in their lives. But the lessons of the winter of 1838–39 teach us that every experience can become a redemptive experience if we remain bonded to our Father in Heaven through that difficulty. These difficult lessons teach us that man’s extremity is God’s opportunity, and if we will be humble and faithful, if we will be believing and not curse God for our problems, He can turn the unfair and inhumane and debilitating prisons of our lives into temples—or at least into a circumstance that can bring comfort and revelation, divine companionship and peace. . . . "everyone, including (and perhaps especially) the righteous, will be called upon to face trying times. When that happens we can sometimes fear God has abandoned us, and we might be left, at least for a time, to wonder when our troubles will ever end. As individuals, as families, as communities, and as nations, probably everyone has had or will have an occasion to feel as Joseph Smith felt when he asked why such sorrow had to come and how long its darkness and damage would remain. . . . "whenever these moments of our extremity come, we must not succumb to the fear that God has abandoned us or that He does not hear our prayers. He does hear us. He does see us. He does love us. When we are in dire circumstances and want to cry “Where art Thou?” it is imperative that we remember He is right there with us—where He has always been! We must continue to believe, continue to have faith, continue to pray and plead with heaven, even if we feel for a time our prayers are not heard and that God has somehow gone away. He is there. Our prayers are heard. And when we weep He and the angels of heaven weep with us. "When lonely, cold, hard times come, we have to endure, we have to continue, we have to persist. That was the Savior’s message in the parable of the importuning widow (see Luke 18:1–8; see also Luke 11:5–10). Keep knocking on that door. Keep pleading. In the meantime, know that God hears your cries and knows your distress. He is your Father, and you are His child. "When what has to be has been and when what lessons to be learned have been learned, it will be for us as it was for the Prophet Joseph. Just at the time he felt most alone and distant from heaven’s ear was the very time he received the wonderful ministration of the Spirit and wonderful, glorious answers that came from his Father in Heaven. . . . "When suffering, we may in fact be nearer to God than we’ve ever been in our entire lives. That knowledge can turn every such situation into a would-be temple." [bold emphasis mine] Lessons from Liberty Jail - HTML Lessons from Liberty Jail - mp3 Jeffrey R. Holland

I think it's much ado about nothing. Seems to be a situation of simple semantics. Perhaps your friend's phrasing isn't putting the most positive spin possible on the situation. So what? Does she really need to be that perfect in her manner of phrasing to not offend you? It seems a little odd to get emotionally stirred up by the particular phrasing used by another person when the phrasing was inwardly focused and not at all impacting you. How about looking at it from a different perspective, perhaps trying to consider how she is feeling - perhaps she really likes the guy, is very attracted to him, wants a relationship with him, but it working hard to resist such and stick to her convictions of what is right. But, because there is an internal struggle, she uses phrasing designed to convince herself of what is right. How about being glad that she didn't focus outwardly by saying "he's beneath me"? I see "I deserve better" as a much more positive, and self-focused way of convincing oneself of the appropriate path to follow.