The Folk Prophet

LiterateParakeet, on 24 Nov 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:
 
I'm interested LitPara. You're applying personal experience to ALL the world. That strikes me as a stretch. As much as I accept that any of us can fall away if we do not remain diligent in our obedience, study, faith, prayers, and the like, the context of your post seems to imply that it can hit anyone in spite of these things. I would be interested in hearing more about your experience (if your comfortable sharing) and how you have come to this conclusion, assuiming I'm not reading too much into it.
 
As a broader discussion, I'd like to discuss the causes of shaken faith syndrome and what we can do to avoid or overcome it.

Respectfully, I disagree. The two concepts are totally incongruous. If you have the strongest of faith then you cannot feel you've been misled. They simply do not align, imo.

There is great wisdom in trusting in The Lord *first and foremost* and withholding judgement and resisting the temptation to feel we're duty-bound to reach the same conclusion that somebody else reached. We may greatly respect them, love them, trust them, find their reasoning highly compelling, logical, believable, etc. But despite all of that, we need to receive our own witness. And we need to hold to the witnesses that we've already received.
As TFP points out, what about archeological evidence or lack of "sufficient" evidence, what about "proof" ..? How often do we hear somebody saying they've proven a point and so the only intelligent, logical, reasonable thing for us to do is to accept their argument.. and their conclusion.. As though a cunning and/or a well-crafted argument is enough to establish truth.
Truth is independent of arguments and logic. Truth is not established by our limited understanding of it. If we truly believe that our Father is the embodiment and source of all truth then it is essential that we learn to completely trust Him and believe that he has the ability to help us reach the *right* conclusions .. despite our weakness, limited understanding, and impatience.
It's ok to admit, as Nephi, that you don't "know the meaning of all things." All things will be revealed in time. Hold fast to the good and take Pres. Uchtdorf's advice to first "doubt your doubts."

Bini, I find your post interesting, as approximately 20 years ago I had my name removed after having been born a raised in a family that has been LDS since the church was very young.
I have been in heavy prayer, study, and consideration for some time now, concerning returning.
I left with some sorrow, much guilt (betrayal of family), but was sure I was doing the right thing.
I now realize, with sorrow, that my baptisim, blessings, etc, are no more.
The realization of this (though of course I always knew it... I had just never addressed it in anyway) is something I found slightly difficult to deal with.
Just make sure you are very certain in what you are doing. It may bring painful regret in the future.

I explained that with the Vs (or thought I did)
 
We have a disconnect between what God said and Means... and what we think/presume/add to what he says and means.
Its the second bit that causes the shaking.  In the case of the Church being true... People presume/add to it the idea that because it true then the flawed mortals running it will run it perfectly to their expectations.  When that fails they get shaken.

Obviously, this idea is not true.

Obviously, this idea is not true.

True...  But being challenged or having doubts is a far cry from what most people think of when we use the term shaken faith.  Most people (or maybe its just me?!?) when they hear or talk about shaken faith think the "Oh no! Everything I know/believe is wrong/false" 
 
For example if I gain a witness from God that the Book of Mormon is true.  That should remain true even if at a later date I find out that the Church lied/deceived/mislead me causing me to doubt the Church.  

Um...no. Just...no.

Um...no. Just...no.

Respectfully, I disagree. The two concepts are totally incongruous. If you have the strongest of faith then you cannot feel you've been misled. They simply do not align, imo.

If two people both learn the so-called "fairly tale" history, and then they both discover the so-called "true" history, and the one experiences shaken faith, and the other does not, then what would you ascribe the difference too if it is not testimony?

Are you suggesting that her faith and testimony was exceedingly strong but she decided that the church wasn't true anyhow?

Are you suggesting that her faith and testimony was exceedingly strong but she decided that the church wasn't true anyhow?

Are you suggesting that her faith and testimony was exceedingly strong but she decided that the church wasn't true anyhow?

Abraham 3: 24-25, confirms this.  If we are to be like Christ, we should not shrink when asked to drink a bitter cup -- although we fall short -- thank God for his Son who did not.
 
 
*************
 
Oh wait better remember the link

So I've been thinking about it and I had this thought:
 
It seems like there are certain people who are incapable (and, to be fair and to stick with my "not a victim" ideology, I'll change that to "less capable") of separating thought from emotion. Specifically, they struggle with thinking differently than they feel. (This may be incredibly biased to say...but it may be more common in the women.  )
 
I wonder if that plays into it at all.
 
Ultimately, feeling strongly about something has no bearing on truth. Example: Plural marriage is or is not a true principle. How any given person felt about it in the day, or feels about it now, that has no bearing on it's rightness or wrongness. But if they brought plural marriage back, how many would experience shaken faith syndrome from it because of how they feel? -- Even if they were not required to actually live it (which hardly anyone was "required" to even back in the day).
 
Many shaken faith issues seem to stem, ultimately, from emotion rather than intellect. Sure, many claim intellect. It's not (imo). It's how the feel about what they learn and think that really matters.
 
Anyhow...it's a thought worth considering.
 
I wonder if being able/learning to separate our thoughts from our feelings somewhat is not an important part of the test here. Take the Abraham example. No one would feel good about having to do that. But do we obey in spite of our feelings? That may be key.

Reasons which give evidence to shaken faith and its causes are, at least from what I am able to deduct:
 
1) The children of God have been given sufficient knowledge and have been given agency.  With their knowledge and agency they choose evil rather than good.  They choose not to love God.  (Moses 7: 29-34).  
 
2) In connection with #1 they invert the first two great commandments. (Matthew 22: 37-39)
 
3) They begin to forget the "rock" upon which they are built. (Heleman 5:12)
 
4) Halt between two opinions (1 Kings 18:21) -- Correlates with #1 & #2
 
5) They cling to the rod rather than holding fast to the rod. (1 Nephi 8:24-25) I view clinging to the rod individuals who like to pick and choose which commandments are important (itching ears).
 
6) They know not the dealings of that God that gave them life/breath and murmur. (1 Nephi 2: 12)
 
7) What we believe, what we feel we know, and what is truth do not confirm each other. 
 
8) Life circumstances cause the temptation that we "walk alone" and that "we are of little worth -- not important" (my personal opinion, this is one of the adversaries greatest temptations to shake our faith especially during significant trials).
 
9) Rationalization, Justification, and compromise of truth/right.
 
These would be at the top of my list regarding "shaken faith". 

LP.. Leslie.. that's powerful ... "Touching His Robe" ...  Love it!  Pure inspiration from our Father straight to your bishop.
 
Have you gone on too long?  Not a chance!  I think most of us following this discussion would love to hear whatever you feel inclined and comfortable sharing.  

Yes!!!
 
So many people seem to think that we who believe just do so magically or something. Or those antagonistic call us brainwashed. But this is my view exactly -- I believe because I choose to.

I don't think anyone's making pumpkin pie for our thanksgiving dinners (that's right...I said dinners...plural...my family always celebrates it on Friday...so...yeah...) this year. I told my wife this morning that I'm going to make myself a pumpkin pie for myself to have later in the day. It's the only time I really get my very favorite desert!

What? Is your Googler broken? 
 
https://www.bing.com/search?setmkt=en-US&q=who+wrote+man+in+the+mirror
 

 
edit: Please note that my Googler is Bing. Heheh.

MJ didn't write Man in the Mirror.

Wrong!

The iron rod (from Lehi's dream in the Book of Mormon) represents the word of God. So in LDS-speak, when we say hold or cling to the rod, that's what we mean.