lagarthaaz

CaleB, how about this:

We all agree that burning the rat to death was the wrong thing to do. We all agree that it was inhumane and that the person in question shouldn't have done it.
 
However, we do not condemn the person who did this or denounce her as evil personified. Having a lot of experience with people in different situations, we understand that her actions were likely the result of panic and immaturity, and her writing an attempt to regale us with a story, not to take pleasure in brutality. Our guess is that, in ten years (or perhaps much less), she will look back on the incident with at least a bit of chagrin at having burned the poor animal to death, however scared and clueless she may have been at the time.
 
Is that sufficient? Or do you require us to join you in your full-throated condemnation of this person? Because we won't. We have enough experience to recognize a poor decision motivated by fear and immaturity rather than attributing it to evil intent. If you can't see that, then that reflects much more on you than on her.
 
Seriously, friend. Let it go. It's a sad thing, but it's long done. Far greater evils are performed many thousands of times per day in the very area you live in. Quit harping on a poor decision made by a single missionary half a year ago.

FWIW . . . as a missionary I killed rats, cockroaches, and at least one bat that were invading my living quarters; but I never felt the need to incinerate any of them (at least, not while they were still living).
 
I agree with the OP that the sister's method of dispatching the rat was frankly disturbing and more becoming of a mindless sorority girl than a minister of the gospel.  I doubt it's worth holding a disciplinary council or sending anyone home; but if I were her MP--yeah, I'd talk to her about it. 
 
And while the OP's tone may be a bit of overkill:  I, for one, don't think it's completely out-of-line for the OP to see a missionary pulling crap like that and then asking whether it's something the Church condones.  As Mormons, what our missionaries do in the field reflects on all of us.  That's why they carry the "white bibles" with them everywhere they go; and why even their dress and grooming are subject to so many micromanaging regulations.

CaleB - I agree with you. This person was cruel in the way she disposed of the animal and she was immature for writing a jocular blog entry about it later. 
 
Just because something is 'ugly' or 'scary' to us does not give us the right to treat it as a non-sentient being. 
 
As others here have noted she is young and was most likely trying to be witty and entertaining on her blog - but it just comes across as annoying and puerile.  Hopefully she has learned from this as I'm sure she would have had negative reactions since her blog entry was posted in July. 
 
 
 

Picking on people? She burned an animal alive FFS. If anything I am criticising her behaviour! It's got nothing to do with her being a missionary, it's her burning an animal to death. It's disgusting! She could have got something very heavy or hard, like a shovel and hit it over the head. Lights out. Burning the animal alive is excessive, unnecessary and cruel. I don't care if she is a woman, that is NO EXCUSE to torch an animal! Never thought to buy a rat trap... what the hell? She's an adult, she couldn't possibly be that stupid and ignorant not to know what a mouse trap is!
 
And I've never, ever done something as bad as burn an animal alive or worse. If I did that I'd be ashamed of myself. This woman obviously isn't because she showed no remorse. Seems like you're just making excuses for her because "it's just a rat". Might be a pest but it's still a living creature that can feel pain, torturing it like that is NOT ON. If you're going to kill any animal DO IT QUICKLY AND HUMANELY.
 
If you had read the blog, they actually discussed its fate. One of the options include MUTILATING it. You don't do that, and you don't burn something alive by accident, or as a last resort measure. Sounds like they didn't give a shit how they killed it no matter how painful and unnecessary. And that's exactly why I am saying it's not so innocent as you think it is!
 
And yeah, I'm taking this seriously. I hate animal abuse, and I think torturing a rat with fire is absolutely cruel and disgusting. You might not, but as someone who has been in a burn ward before, I felt sorry for that animal, that it had to suffer from the actions of someone stupid and inhumane. Yes, it's called empathy. Something YOU seem to be lacking. What is did was WRONG, are you seriously trying to argue it's OK to burn a little rodent alive???

I think it was the burning of a live creature that is the issue for the poster. It also seems there was no reason for that. And the bragging about it. So, deplorable behaviour? Yeah. (I am in favour of slaughtering raccoons in this part of the world; which are definitely Pests and is against the law. But to burn them alive and make the occasion for some sort of celebration? Uh, no)

I didn't want to share my opinion until after reading the blog post.  I think I can understand what you mean and I agree to a certain extent. The way she handled it was wrong, but again based on that post,  she seemed so clueless...the whole post is way too teeny-bopper for my liking to be honest and quite irritating, so perhaps we should cut her some slack, she will grow and know better next time (hopefully).

I would have assumed that a sister of a missionary would be strongly ethical - that being heavy on mercy and compassion.
 
I was wondering what your position was on this blog?
 
This person traps an animal with a glue trap, and after discussion of how to kill it, decides it would be a good idea to burn it alive. She laughs afterwards and celebrates with a pizza.
 
How would you deal with something like this if you were a colleague, or if you were a missionary leader? I would have assumed someone who devotes their time helping people would be merciful and kind, and yet I see nothing but sadism here.

She immolated a live animal - a mammal, no less - when it was in no way necessary for the purpose of killing it. And then bragged about it. She was doing more than "killing a rat", she was torturing a helpless animal. What is wrong with a normal mouse trap, why must they burn the animal alive? Ask yourself that question. What she did was indefensibly wrong.
 
Maybe you didn't notice, but there's a clear distinction between killing something out of necessity and torturing something then bragging on a blog about it.

Welcome back.....I am speaking in our sacrament meeting tomorrow as well.

Welcome back.  :)

Christmas is a time we celebrate the birth of the Savior into the world. It is also a time that we give gifts to one another and enjoy the company of our loved ones.
 
A baptism is a time we celebrate the birth of a new soul into the kingdom of God. It is also a chance to ponder the gifts that God has given us, first and foremost the gift of the Holy Ghost, from which all other spiritual gifts spring. We also enjoy the company of our fellow Saints, and most importantly we enjoy the company and guidance of the Holy Ghost.
 
The beauty of our mortal lives lies not in DVDs or fine houses. The beauty of our lives lies entirely in the relationships we build with one another. Everything, even food and shelter, serve only to enable us to build those things. If we lose sight of that fact, we will always be miserable no matter if we live in a palace with a hundred servants at our beck and call. If we remember that fact and always act toward it, we will be the happiest of people, whatever our financial or other condition. Christmas is a time we can remember these central truths of life, and the Church is the perfect place for us to practice them.
 
Good luck with your talk. I'm sure you will do fine.

Okay. Nice to meet you. 

Seems like  a few people are starting these threads...so I'm hopping in the bandwagon.
 
I was never a prolific poster but I haven't been able to get back on the site since the changes in format occurred - it was one drama after another with technical difficulties and forgotten passwords and eventually I just gave up.  Then last night I had an epiphany and remembered my password and the connected email address - hooray!
 
Nice to see the various discussions here and the support that is offered to those who are struggling.
 
I often don't get time to post but do enjoy reading and sometimes trying to contribute something meaningful.
 
Thanks to all the people here who unfailingly offer common-sense advice to those who need it. Nice to see you are all still at it!
 
I have a talk to give in Sacrament tomorrow... I wrote it for last week but they cancelled those of us who were scheduled to speak as someone had forgotten that a member of the high council was going to address us. Now my talk from last week seems a bit redundant since Christmas is upon us and I really feel I should make it more relative to the season. It's almost 11pm and I just have to adapt 'Building the Lord's Kingdom in the Latter-days' to ... 'something related to Christmas...' - sitting here in a 'stupor of thought' procrastinating on the internet instead of adding action to my prayers.      Pray for me.. I'll need it!
 
See you in the forums  :) :)

Haven't posted here in years, so for all intents and purposes it's like I'm new.
 
My family's been inactive for a long time, and we started going to church again as of last Sunday.  There had been a few things holding me back, but I've finally gotten over enough of them to get a clear path to returning.
 
One of those things is that I simply refuse to become one of those cookie cutter guys that fill EQ meetings.  I just won't do it.  I'm boisterous, opinionated, have a somewhat unrefined sense of humor, I like wargames, I have a tattoo on my right arm (Placed there by a Quaker friend of mine.  Just how many times in history has a Quaker put ink on a Mormon, do you think?  I bet we were the first.)  My car has lots of bumper stickers including the Superman shield, the Inquisition logo from Warhammer 40K, and I'm looking to put an Autobot sticker on my hood.  All that next to a 100 years Johns Hopkins sticker ('cause that's where I work.)  My quad sits on the same shelving unit that holds my Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks and a copy of the Bible miniseries is next to Conan the Barbarian (both versions, actually.  Neither was very close to the original source material, though.) on my media shelf.  
 
Does that make me sound divided?  I hope not.  I admit Conan is somewhat problematic because of the nudity but not because it's a sword & sandals style adventure flick.  That said, I see everything through the lens of my faith, and you'd be surprised at where I've found parallels and spiritual wisdom that is perfectly in line with LDS doctrine and teachings in my Scifi/fantasy hobbies.  I like to note those because they make Gospel study a bit more fun and less dry.
 
Yeah, so enough about me.  Thanks for being here and providing a place to chat, share and be opinionated :)

You will learn to balance your beliefs and your work.  I've done it for 17 years now as a police officer.  My religious beliefs dictate my personal behavior.  This does not mean my religious beliefs dictate someone else's personal behavior.  My job is to deal with how someone else has exercised their personal behavior. 
 
Your role will be to help an individual with their problems.  Not proselytize them.  If religious discussion is helpful AND wanted, then you can go there.  If not...don't.  That decision is in the hands of the patient.  God gives everyone their agency, some exercise it better then others.

You may enjoy reading President Kimball's talk Tragedy or Destiny (included in the Church manual). He starts with a whole list of specific cases and asks why. He never answers the question for specific cases.
 
 
He then explores some general principles that may or may not be relevant for a given case.
 
In your professional practice, just because you can't preach doesn't mean you can't minister. I would encourage you to remember your covenants. When someone comes in mourning, mourn with her. When someone comes in needed comfort, comfort him.

When I was running the Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism, I was particularly interested in documenting the process by which a faithful member of the Church turns into an anti-Mormon apostate.  There are people who drift away from the Church because of depression, unworthiness, discouragement, worldliness, or because life's trials overwhelm them, just as Jesus described in the Parable of the Sower.
 
However, there is a peculiar process that I documented whereby many exMormons fall away and try to take others with them.  Like Prisonchaplain said, it begins in college for many of them.  A very typical case was a guy who joined the S.P.A.M. social network back around 2009 who went by the screen name "Ishmael."  Ishmael wrote on our site:
 
"Fast forward a few years. I'm home from my mission, I've graduated from BYU, I'm married with a couple of kids. I'm a little battle-worn, some of my illusions about the mission, BYU, and the Church itself have been shattered, but that's all part of growing up. My testimony is still strong. I probably don't need to tell you that it wasn't long before I was delving in the world of online Mormonism and anti-Mormonism."
 
Ishmael became a sort of case study because he evinced a pattern that showed up over and over.  He had some illusions about his faith that were challenged and didn't hold up.  Instead of praying and studying for further understanding and truth to correct his errors, he begins to let go of the iron rod.  He allows men to instruct him instead of the Holy Spirit.
 
You have to realize that, when S.P.A.M. was functioning, it became a target of anti-Mormons.  Many former members joined us with the intent of either trying to shake us in our faith or justifying their own apostasy.  Ishmael was one of them.  When you give these guys a chance to tell their story, they start "monologuing" and it always falls into this pattern.
 
1. Establish rapport
2. Establish credibility
3. Build sympathy
4. Tell of an "awakening"
5. Rationalize the loss of commitment, disobedience, etc.
6. Reveal the deception that snared them
7. Issue either a disclaimer that excuses them or a hateful rant that vindicates their choice to leave, blaming others.
 
Very often, these former members seek out those who are struggling and try to take them down with them.  You have to understand that there are people who are active "wolves" who are seeking to prey on the flock.  When an innocent person who might be struggling with some doubts encounters one of these apostates, they are unaware that there is a careful, manipulative process being worked against them.  
 
What amazed me is how consistent this pattern was.  I had to wonder if the consistency of it was because of the adversary's influence over them or whether it was rehearsed.  
 
If you want to read the whole article called, Ishmael's Monologue, check it out on the S.P.A.M. archives at:
 
http://spamldsarchive.blogspot.com/2010/05/ishmael-monologue.html
 
It's not my intent to "pimp" my old blog, but I think it's an important aspect of understanding "shaken faith syndrome."  There are over 800 anti-Mormon parachurches and ministries out there.  They publish web sites, videos, and distribute their products (often for a profit) through Christian bookstores and pastors of other denominations.  There are also atheists who are dedicated to undermining all faith and they seem to take a special interest in destroying the faith of people who claim belief in modern revelation.  When you realize that the opposition is active, it takes on a whole new dimension.

Woah.  It's a "syndome" now.  Scary!
 
 
Maybe I'm starting my post with this little bit of sarcasm because I think "shaken faith" SHOULD come to all of us if we are ever going to grow.  And I kinda wish we wouldn't be so afraid of it and thus so judgmentally about it.  I mean we are judgmental because of fear, I get it,  but it doesn't really help.
 
Sometimes I think people end up leaving the church because they don't get supported through this necessary struggling.  They think something is wrong with them.  They are TOLD something is wrong with them. You know?  They get judged instead of loved.  And that hurts. Who of any of us wants to stay and hang out with a bunch who treats us like an apostate? Who tolerates that very well, you know?
 
My personal feeling is that the church needs a rebirth of sorts.  And because I'm seeing a lot of this "syndome" these days, I'm wondering if the Lord is preparing the church for the second coming and that maybe we don't know it yet.  I think this partially because of my conversations with others, but mostly because of my own experiences with doubt.  I don't know exactly how to explain it but it was like God deconstructed my entire belief system and then helped me, with my agency as a key piece (as others have highlighted so well), he helped reconstruct it.  And wow!  It's different than before.  All the same "stuff" but in a much stronger/better/broader sort of way.  During this, God helped me reconstruct my understanding and belief in the church specifically.  And i must share that much of what He taught me was seeing differences between the wheat and the tares inside the church.  Like I needed to learn where the lies were.  Cuz before,  I think I just took for granted that it was all truth.
 
I've thought long on these experiences trying to make sense of all of it with a very human and limited brain.  And what I think I understand is that the church itself can be something of a crutch if one isn't careful.  It gives structure and rules and safety, if you will.  I think God wants a little more walking on water, if you get my meaning.  I sometimes think the church listens more to the church than to God maybe.  Or rely's on blind adherence to the church more than a true and living, daily conversation with God.  Maybe he has to shake us a bit to help us let go of trusting the arm of the flesh and learn to trust His arm more. 
 
Is there a chance that this is happening?  Is there a chance that this is part of some important proving of the Lord's children?  Is it possible that letter of the law adherence just isn't enough anymore?  Is it possible that all of this "syndrome" is actually a huge opportunity?
 
I don't know anything really.  I only know what I think I know. And I think I know that there's something more going on here than just weakness.

Great post!
 
What you are talking about is one's ability to spiritual discern.  This dilemma is spoken of many times in the scriptures.  I like Zechariah's words about it, chapter 11; " 17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened."  The "right eye" is symbolic of one's ability to discern spiritual things.  The "right arm" is symbolic of one's ability to carry out spiritual things.  Just like we have a right eye and a left eye and a right arm and left arm we are dual beings.  It is said more clearly from modern day prophets and apostles like David O Mckay and Elder Bednar that we are both physical and spirit beings.  Elder Holland made it clear that the "mind" can have ailments as in depression etc. that are physical in nature, the physical mind or in other words the brain.  Those being different from the thoughts that are generated by the "mind" of the spirit.
 
Our ability to differentiate the source of those thoughts, passions, feelings etc is called spiritual discernment or metaphorically represented by the "right" side of the body, on the right hand or the right eye, etc.  We want to find ourselves on the right side of Christ in the end.  That is the test of this life - do we pay attention to the right side or the left side or like Zechariah so poetically said when one's faith is "shaken" what happens is the right eye becomes darkened.  In other words, spiritual discernment is more difficult.
 
The whole focus then is to keep our "right eye" clear.  That is the purpose and effect of the gospel, to enhance our spiritual discernment.  Without it, the natural man takes over, the "left" side of the body, or the physical or carnal man takes over and then we don't see things spiritually as well.  
 
Maybe this is why I spend so much time talking about what is physical vs what is spiritual, to discern the two can be difficult but that is the test.  Elder Bednar; "The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."
 
Like you stated, the conundrum exists because we are dual beings, everything has to be processed through the natural man brain.   Even if the spirit is the source of the message it still has to be processed through the brain.  So, the best way to help (but not totally do away with the conundrum) is to do everything we can to distinguish what is from "natural man" the physical brain vs what is from the spirit (the way the Holy Spirit communicates is directly to our spirit).  We "put off" the natural man to tune into the spirit or to improve our spiritual discernment.  You are describing THE test as Elder Bednar says - which inclination do we respond to - natural man vs spirit, right eye vs left eye.

First...yes you can most certainly repent, experience the joy of forgiveness and be baptized into the Lord's true church, just as others have.
Paul had a similar experience before his life-changing conversion:
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not ameet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Corinthians 15:9)
So did Alma:
Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: aThis is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall boverthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.(Mosiah 27:13)
As to your youtube account:
If it were me and I was as experienced a youtuber as you say you have been, then I'd probably know to go here first: https://www.youtube.com/account_recovery
I would also know that the youtube help center would be able to help me figure out what's what - even if it took a little while.
And if it were me, and I had a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, I probably wouldn't be inviting members of the church to go and look at my anti-mormon videos, because a)I'd be deeply ashamed of the content and b)I wouldn't want to upset or offend anyone with the rubbish I posted. In fact, I'd want to distance myself as far as possible from said anti-mormon videos and I'd be putting my energy into contacting youtube instead.
And if it were me who had been an anti-mormon campaigner, I would know that church members are generally dissuaded from viewing anti-material. I would know that some people use all kinds of sophistry to get church members just to take a look at anti-mormon content in the hope that it will shake someone's testimony and bring them to the 'real' Jesus. I know I sure wouldn't want to send my good and trusting LDS friends to a site that might upset them.
But that's just me.
All the best, and let us know how the missionary discussions go, and when you set a date for baptism.

I dunno, as another poster here noted, they've been told to pretty much go to the 'anti-Mormon protest' area. That's a pretty clear message. It's not too much of a leap to see they are on the path to being labelled as apostate and possibly facing church discipline.
I do agree that they should choose a more appropriate way to have their voices heard - crashing any kind of religious meeting considered sacred by those attending is just plain disrespectful and tacky.