Gabelma

John 15 10 If ye akeep my commandments, ye shall abide in my blove; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your ajoy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye alove one another, as I have bloved you. 13 Greater alove hath no man than this, that a man lay down his blife for his cfriends. 14 Ye are my afriends, if ye do whatsoever I bcommand you. I don't see a conflict to me Faith = Christ Cnetered worship, which involves obeying those commandments or at least striving to. There are some wonderful Book of Mormon Charley

glad to hear you and Nick are doing well SF CHarley

I am not going to use any scriptures with this, the atonement and repentance are an incredibly personal process there are times when scripture use leads to contention, which is very unhealthy with the atonement - and as we are mortal our understanding of them is quite likely to conflict at times, without full knowledge it is entirely possible to have conflicting views both of which are correct or wrong. Not everyone even finds it personal but for me its a crucial part of my relationship with God - I feel like I owe him (probably not the best phrase to describe lol - language can be so frustrating when trying to talk about things of God), my Saviour is my big brother, he takes care of me. I actually don't think scriptures are as important in daily prayer and life experience when it comes to understanding the atonement. I have certainly had plenty of priesthood blessing since I got ill to that effect. I went from just reading about the atonement to starting to empathise more, and no I am not pretending to understand what the Lord went to. I never stated Christ on any level was PUNISHED for my sins - I did assert he SUFFERED for them, I wasn't aware any Christ based religion denied that Christ suffered for humanities sins. Christ suffered so that my greatest punishment for my sins if I repent will be remorse, not everlasting firey hell (whatever form that may take in the eternities - I have my own feelings about that). However if I didn't sin Christ wouldn't have needed to SUFFER for my sins. Nor would I downplay the cross it was part of the atonement but so was Gethsemane - why was Gethsemane downplayed in the scriptures I honestly don't know maybe because it is so personal - but I do know modern prophets and our church leaders refer to it frequently - so its not missing in scripture.I I could be very wrong but its the stage of my journey of life I am at - I know right now I am at a stage in my life when I feel close to the Lord and that there is nothing wrong with me feeling this way right now. It may well evolve. But I would not at this stage feel comfortable with your view of the atonement, it sits wrong with my spirit and the stage my relationship with the Lord is at. - Charley

we are facing something similar with my brother today his case comes up in court. His ex girlfriend (he has shared a house with her for 3 years until she beat him up) had been sending him loads of text messages and basically stalking him, so drunkenly on his birthday last year he sent her a naked picture of herself (one she had originally consented to having taken by him). He has been charged with threatening behaviour (she was the one that physically abused him for years) and faces the possibility of being placed on the sex offenders register. Charley

I suspect in Japan that may have been the right way to go My experience helping the missionaries teaching with investigators is that the discussions are fantastic for teaching Jews, Most Christians and Muslims but weren't very good at teaching Buddhists, Hindus and Pagans, and also some Roman Catholics - as it seems to assume a basic belief in Christ. Charley

Wow. I guess I'm wrong. That's fabulous! But that's in public. So, I'd be surprised if private establishments allowed you to do it. But then, it sounds like I basically don't know what I'm talking about, and that's a good thing! :) Elphie You know I have had not one comment about me breastfeeding even from the older generation, not even a tut. Now putting my son on the floor whilst I tied the sling round me got plenty until they realised he was standing up against me leg lol Charley

I do agree its better and more respectful to be discreet but have just discovered I have the legal right to breastfeed in public in Kansas so can continuue to do what I do here and just feed, but will use the Mothers Lounge for sacrament at church. Gabey will be nearly 2 hopefully won't need to feed so much anyway I like the sound of what will be my new home Charley

Charley, I don't know how important this is to you. But once you are in the states, more than likely you will be asked to leave the chapel. It's not just a LDS thing. I assume only the most liberal of cities would allow you to nurse in public, if then. The U.S. is very burkha-ish when it comes to breast-feeding in public. Elphaba I think it will become important but will have to deal with it - people here have been forced to accept it as now its a law that a woman can breastfeed when and where she likes, it was amazing in a few months it went from being normal seeing women breastfeeding to actually you don't notice its not as if anyone sees you anyway. How do people deal with it though in the early stages? I think I would have gone bad during the time when Gabey fed constantly if I had been stuck at home? Its no wonder in our societies that women get post natel depression so much when something as simple as breastfeeding is made to be a crime.... some States I do know have similar laws to Scotland not sure which ones though. Charley

yeah I know did love my husbands response though he suggested there should also be a room for those who feel turned on by watching a woman breastfeed lol - Seriously I think the room has a place as there are times when my son gets too distracted when I am trying to get him to sleep but I also think it should be an optional thing. Technically now in Scotland it is as my Branch President could face a fine of £2000 if he asked me to remove myself from the meeting Charley

As I understand it from the missionaries that eat here - in our mission the missionaries are actually encouraged to teach more from the spirit and it is being used in a Member MTC programme where the missionaries are teaching the members how to go about being more effective missionaries. They have also stopped knocking on doors. Charley

I assume as you are LDS you are using suffering on the cross as figurative - for me the atonement is as much about the prayer in Gethsemane as the cross. Christ suffered for everyones sins, if I didn't sin he wouldn't be suffering me - as a result everytime I sin Christ suffers because I am a sinner. I am curious do you not believe Christ suffered for YOUR sins? or do you just see it as an impersonal event? For me the atonement is very personal and part of my relationship with the Lord.This came from a conference talk and incudes scripture and quotes from an apostle http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem..._&hideNav=1 Referring to the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the prophet Alma taught the people in Gideon: “And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. “And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. “Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me” (Alma 7:11–13). Also speaking of the Atonement, Jacob, the brother of Nephi, taught: “Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more” (2 Nephi 9:7). The Atonement of Jesus Christ is available to each of us. His Atonement is infinite. It applies to everyone, even you. It can clean, reclaim, and sanctify even you. That is what infinite means—total, complete, all, forever. President Boyd K. Packer has taught: “There is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness. That is the promise of the atonement of Christ” (“The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 20). ------------- Also these words from I Stand All Amazed I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me, Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me. I tremble to know that for me he was crucified, That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died Charley

LOL not so long ago you could have married them offf:) Charley

we covenant at baptism to be obedient to the Lord. Surely keeping the commandments comes under that? Charley

Uh, speaking of Nazies and Muslims here's some REALLY interesting pictures that were probably not in your high school social studeis textbooks. http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2543 By the way PC, have you ever asked your Islamic cleric what his vision of America is? If not, please ask him what his ideal America is and what kinds of laws would exist if the majority of Americans were Muslim. Also, why demonize Michael Savage? I have only heard him a few times but he seems to have a braod background -- being originally a liberal Jew and eventually evolving into a conservative. He is blunt but could you give me some examples of what he says that might put him into the extremist camp? I have also met Jews and Christians that have views of the countries I am living in that I am not happy with doesn't mean I think they should be hounded. Charley

I am going to quote my favourite Latter Day Saint Speaker - My husband lol 'the moment we get baptised as Latter Day Saints, we all become hypocrites in our strive for perfection' and I agree with him it would be as wrong for me to judge the person with the prejudice (although have to confess people with prejudices like that I have trouble dealing with lol - they are my prejudice) Some people are insecure around people who are gay - maybe it is a temptation of theirs or maybe she is a lady who would be uncomfortable round divorcees, good looking single men etc. In my experience many Latter Day Saints and other fundamental Christians tend to be the most sex obsessed people on the planet they a lot of them seem to think that only they are pure and everyone else is at it 24/7- only a Latter Day Saint or is it an American thing not sure could tell me that I shouldn't breastfeed in public because it might turn a man on. Whatever it is though those prejudices and feelings are that persons weakness. Personally I don't assume I turn everyone else on as not everyone else turns me on. Someone being gay should not stop us showing love it is possible for a person to know you disapprove of their activity without backing off, the Saviour mixed happilly with people who were not at the same stage of perfection as he was/is, why should I lose out on a great freind because they are not temple worthy in some aspect of their lives? Charley

Who am I to argue with the lord? I guess I am still bound to that addiction! I haven't had any coffee in over a year...I slipped once last year and had two cups...but I have been good since.... ...I miss my coffee My best friend is gay he says it would be easier to give up men than tea if he got baptised lol

One of the reasons times have changed is that in most of your examples the people, on average, didn't live very long. Frankly, with life expectancy rates what they are today, your examples are good arguments for "teenagers" not having to act like adults until they've had time to mature a bit longer. Elphaba P.S. There weren't "loads of child protection laws" in the early 1900s. Maybe you meant later? no i am in the UK, child protection laws began in the 1800s with laws to regulate their employment, school meals, basic healthcare, by 1911 a lot had changd And I don't disagree with you but we can't judge a bygone age with our morals Charley

Would you give your permission for your 14 yr old daughter to be married to a 30 or 40 yr old if he had no children already? If I was a wealthy parent in 1600 my question would be why wasn't she already married to a 60 year old man lol in 2007 I think ewww but tbh when my daughter gets to 16-18 its her decision to make not mine, I would rather she was married to a good man of 96 than a bad man of 20 Charley

I am glad to hear it went well SF please keep us posted and let us know how Nick is doing Charley

What do you do to Christ when you sin? yes - the atonement is eternal, every act I make is part of that, what I do now affects what the Saviour went through then. When I pray or take the sacrament I feel like I was there with him which I probably was not sure if I could watch him go through it, but I can't take away the remorse I feel for what I am responsible for. Charley

There are a lot of possible reasons but that is why we have ongoing revelation because life changes. 400 years ago in Britain it was actually safer to drink Ale than drink from a water supply in the cities. We have been told in 2007 its not good for us so thats the law we follow. If we were still living the Law of Moses like in the Old Testament our food would need to be Kosher but revelation in the New Testament took that away Charley

Have been thinking about you today - how has your sons surgery gone?

We are trying to view things with eyes of today not with the same eyes - my Gran was working from 12, so she had to grow up. My Grandad had to leave school at 14 and get a job and this was the early 1900s after loads of child protection laws. My Mum left school at 15 to get a job in the 1960s. In the 1850s a young child of 6 was executed in I think France for insiting a rebellion its a particularly sad story the description of it is harrowing of the young child swinging from the rope crying for his Mother , there were children across Europe before that, under the age of 10 executed for very small crimes - stealing petticoats, pots of paint etc now they wouldn't even be charged. In the 1600s there were many girls of wealthy families who were married off at the age of 6+ their sex life began from when they had their first period. In Greece it was common place and even expected at one point for a tutor to have a sexual relationship with his young male student. Times change and often the view of what is acceptable changes - but teenagers are a new concept my Dad was one of the first generations of teenager. Bar Mitzvah celebrates the boys coming of age at 12 and most rites of passage in early societies are 12-14 Charley

[OK here goes lol its not doctrinal- my view has been that we are trying to view the eternities from a restricted view seat, but I do feel like I have never not been in some form or another and I will always be. This Johnny Cash song lyrics (highwayman) kind of describes how I feel - whilst I don't believe in reincarnation as in we will return to this life time I do believe we have many lifetimes ahead in many forms. But if once I lose the veil and can see eternity differently I may change my mind lol -I do wonder if we are time travellers or if we go through eternity but every so often start right back as whatever came before spirits -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was a highwayman. Along the coach roads I did ride With sword and pistol by my side Many a young maid lost her baubles to my trade Many a soldier shed his lifeblood on my blade The b****s hung me in the spring of twenty-five But I am still alive. I was a sailor. I was born upon the tide And with the sea I did abide. I sailed a schooner round the Horn to Mexico I went aloft and furled the mainsail in a blow And when the yards broke off they said that I got killed But I am living still. I was a dam builder across the river deep and wide Where steel and water did collide A place called Boulder on the wild Colorado I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below They buried me in that great tomb that knows no sound But I am still around..I'll always be around..and around and around and around and around I fly a starship across the Universe divide And when I reach the other side I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can Perhaps I may become a highwayman again Or I may simply be a single drop of rain But I will remain And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you read a lot of CS Lewis? I have some images from Narnia and the Great Divorce that put across more of how I feel. Charley