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Posts posted by anatess2

  1. 2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

    To be honest @anatess2 - I am of the mind that most people involved in religion or politics - most of the time - do not know what they are standing for; especially if they do not offer themselves as the best example of what they understand as their belief.


    The Traveler


    That's why it's not useful, and even hurtful, to talk to/about individuals using group identities.  Jordan Peterson talks about this a lot.

  2. 1 hour ago, Traveler said:

    One thing we should all learn about politics - If someone want to know what Democrats sand for and believe - they should not get their information for understanding from Republicans - and vice versa.


    The Traveler

    One thing I learn about politics - Republicans don't always know what the Republican Party stands for... same for Democrats and the Democrat Party.

  3. 11 hours ago, MormonGator said:
    Are individuals contagious before they develop symptoms?

    There is evidence that the novel coronavirus can be spread before an individual develops symptoms. This poses a problem because people who do not know they are infected may continue to go to work, school, and other public places. People who are sick and have symptoms are more likely to stay home, which means fewer opportunities for the virus to spread from one person to another. When asymptomatic transmission occurs, infection control experts and public health officials may need to take additional measures, such as social distancing, isolating patients, or using quarantines.


    That's OLD NEWS.

    WHO came out with an update from contact tracing data.

    And no, this is not an endorsement of government-imposed contact tracing.

  4. 14 hours ago, Scott said:

    I'm just asking since I am curious about your opinion.

    Would it ever be a valid reason if the death rate was higher?   


    What's the difference between 200,000 deaths and 200,001 deaths?  None.

    "Give me liberty or give me death" - someone famous.

    "Those who give up liberty for safety will have neither liberty nor safety" - another someone famous.

    "“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - another one also famous.

  5. 3 minutes ago, dprh said:

    1) Everybody is a potential carrier.  We don't know who is or isn't.  I personally don't trust other people to self-regulate to stay home when sick. 

    This is not a valid reason to expand government authority.


    3 minutes ago, dprh said:

    2) Masks are a tool that helps reduce the spread of the virus.  

    And masks are a tool to commit anonymous armed robbery, symbols of white supremacy, antifa-terrorists, female oppression, etc. etc.  In any case, masks are covered under freedom of expression - something that the government is supposed to not infringe.


    3 minutes ago, dprh said:

    3) Any mask can reduce (not stop) the spread of droplets, some better than others.  

    Still not a valid reason for government infringement of liberty.


    3 minutes ago, dprh said:

    4) Being able to socialize with a mask is better than being quarantined without in-person interaction.  

    Not a valid reason for government infringement of liberty.


    3 minutes ago, dprh said:

    5) We can't stop the viral spread, but we can slow it down so hospitals and other care units don't get overwhelmed.  

    That's what they've been saying for the past 4 months.  Yet, it seems like there is more effort to pressure people to hand draconian power to government rather than pressure government to approve medical protocols to help reduce ER and ventilator needs.


    3 minutes ago, dprh said:

    I understand the fight against government mandates requiring masks. But masks are effective.

    Depends on what problem you are trying to solve and what problems you are willing to ignore... and this is just masks... can you imagine when the CDC approves a vaccine?  

  6. 19 minutes ago, dprh said:

    I'm hoping to help her feel comfortable being in her backyard.

    Well, that's the thing... places like California are making statewide ordinances that are designed for the urban centers mandated to non-urban dwellers.  So, urban backyards in California are mask-zones which now applies to non-urban dwellers.  This is another issue with government mandates.

  7. 14 hours ago, carlimac said:

    I hate to say this but from the outside looking in, it has the optics of a very entitled group of people unwilling to sacrifice their fun for the greater good.  My own group of 20 may sound self righteous and pompous. I admit we may be. But we just don't get their attitude at all!  Also, Grandma who has FOMO herself is still going to "sneak up there". As if you sneak, it doesn't make it real. 

    My 84-year-old aunt is having a "we're not talking to each other" fight with my 80-year-old mother.  My 80-year-old mother is telling my 84-year-old aunt who flew to the USA all the way from the Philippines last March just to end up stuck in an apartment in LA to stop asking people to visit.  My aunt has been calling everybody because she wants to visit them.  Everybody in my family refused her visit except me.  I even told her I'll buy her ticket.  So now nobody is talking to me either.

    This is why I told her I'll buy her ticket... this is what she tearfully said to me - "I am 84 years old.  I can die in my sleep tomorrow.  I don't want to die cowering in an apartment.  I want to spend everyday of what's left in my life to personally connect with my family and touch everybody's faces.  I'd rather visit you and die of covid rather than die peacefully in my sleep not having the chance to see your children except for 1 week when they were little."  Of course I said yes.  Infection rate in my city - 2,000.  Infection rate in LA - 80,000.  I work from home, my husband works from home, my son is a fisherman - if you're within 25 feet of a fisherman, you're too close.  We don't have the virus.  We all live by Faith in God, continuing to do good things, rather than Fear of Death.  No brainer. 

    My entire family, led by my mother (her only living sibling), pressured her to stop our plans.   My mother told me - "If she dies of covid visiting you,  You are guilty of murder." 

    So she went home to the Philippines yesterday - flying through multiple airplanes and multiple airports in multiple infected cities - never having visited anybody.  I thought to myself, "If she dies before she gets a chance to see my children, I will do everything in my power to have her temple work done over the objections of my mother and her children."

  8. 14 hours ago, carlimac said:

    I didn't read this whole thread but  I'm sure it's been pointed out that wearing a mask is not as much a matter of taking care of your own health as it is watching out for others'.

    Same difference.  Because, you're having a government forcing EVERYBODY - even those who don't carry the virus and can't possibly spread it - to wear one.  There are so many assumptions that the government is making here.  1.) Everybody is a carrier. 2.) Masks are required to stop viral spread regardless of other methods exercised. 3.) Any mask - including non N95 standard ones - can stop viral spread. 4.) Masks can improve societal health more than it hurts... and the main thing - 5.) Stopping viral spread among a healthy population is the best way to deal with a viral pandemic.

  9. 33 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

    Yeah, well I haven't yet quite given up hope in my country. The decision was wrong, and ought to be reversed. I'm still hoping it will be.

    They've come a looooong way from the age of the war of the monarchs. 

    Speaking of monarchs... there's a lot of talk that the American princess is gonna be the end of the royals or at least the royalists.  What's your take on it?

  10. 19 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

    I think what you're alluding to here is that we don't have a written constitution, so there is no well-defined list of things that the government is not allowed to do. We do have "constitutional principles", and we have ancient stuff like Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights* (1689), but nothing succinctly codified like the Americans have.

    The Bill of Rights (I'm talking about the English one - introduced after the Revolution of 1688) does specify freedom of speech - but it's referring to parliamentary debate, not speech in general. But I'm pretty sure the general freedom of speech would be protected as a "general principle" and an attempt by government to take it away (even if it got through Parliament) would be shot down by the Supreme Court.

    It could of course be done by stealth - removing freedoms a bit at a time, e.g. by calling them "hate speech" - and there have been some disgraceful abuses of what constitutes "hate speech". Markus Meechan* springs to mind: much as I think he's a meanie, the criminalization of what he did is a disgrace to this country, and I hope his conviction will eventually be overturned. But there have been a great many other cases where "government" (in the form of the police and CPS) have prosecuted people for alleged "hate speech" (e.g. for calling Muhammad a "war lord", or Scientology "a cult", or on one occasion for calling a police horse "gay") and the courts have sent them away with a flea in their ear. So it would be nice if we had something similar to the US constitution for the sake of greater clarity.

    Speaking of clarity though, the old fashioned language of the American constitution does leave it open to some interpretation...

    *In case you don't know the story, Markus Meechan is a Scottish comedian who uses the stage name "Count Dankula". He trained his girlfriend's pug dog to do a Nazi salute in response to him saying "gas the Jews" and posted it on YouTube. The point of the exercise was (so he claimed) that he was so sick of his girlfriend droning on about how cute the dog was, he turned it into the least cute thing imaginable: a Nazi. It was in bad taste for sure, but the worst thing about it (to my mind) was that the poor little innocent dog was being made to do things unnatural to it, and had no idea what the joke was about. Nobody complained that it was hate speech until the police started going around showing it to people and asking "aren't you offended?" I mean for goodness sake - if you think offence is a bad thing, why go spreading it around? If somebody made some poison, would police go spooning it out to people so that they could prosecute the poison-maker for making people sick? That was really what made the video go viral! A very stupid magistrate found Meechan guilty of "hate speech" and made him pay a modest fine. But it was an utter disgrace that he was found guilty at all.  I really hope the verdict gets overturned.

    The plane fact that you can be prosecuted for Hate Speech, whereby "hate" is defined by government, means you do not have freedom of speech.  You have government-indulged speech.

    And yes, I'm very familiar with Count Dankula.

  11. 9 hours ago, Plein Air said:

    I have seen websites where "christians" can find business owned by evil people such as members of our church and others so they can boycott them. There are also liberal sites calling to boycott businesses owned by "Mormon" church members.   

    Yeay, capitalism.


    9 hours ago, Plein Air said:


    A little help here - what is CFA?


  12. 5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

    There is disagreement on:

    -Whether you can dictate that I wear a mask in the privacy of my own backyard.  Or at a park.  Or other communal places where my say matters too. 

    - And how do we best treat each other with respect, even when views on this topic vary.  

    The basic disagreement is on handing over your right to wear or not wear whatever you please to the government - local, state, or federal.  There is ZERO difference between mandating that someone wear a mask for whatever reason to mandating someone wear a hijab for whatever reason.  The reason is irrelevant.  The right to what people wear or not wear rests on the people and cannot be infringed.  The most libertarian of us already believe that the mandate for people to not be naked in public is already an infringement citing nudity in Europe as having more liberty.  Going much more beyond that is an expansion of government powers that carries more risk than utility. 

    It is the responsibility of every individual to take care, or not, of your health.  That responsibility SHOULD NOT be handed over to the government.  Someone's fear of death is not a reason for the government to arrest someone else for their choice to prevent covid spread mask-free.


  13. 12 hours ago, Scott said:

    Maybe so, but let's just say that people in Denmark are punished for flying or burning flags from other nations, but not their own, because there is no law against it.

    Scott, you're not getting the point.  In Denmark, as well as in Britain, having no law against a specific form of expression does not mean your right to express in such a manner is inalienable to you.  It simply means the government indulged your manner of expression.  Just the basic fact that the Danish (as well as the UK) government can make laws to punish you for it already proves the matter.

    Canadian laws are similar in structure to British and Danish law.  The government of Canada has displayed that not only can it ban the speech of Canadians, it can FORCE Canadians to speak in a manner the government sees fit.

    This is a paradigm totally opposite of the American paradigm.

  14. 17 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

    I don't know about Denmark, but in the UK (as in the US) the government gets it's very mandate to govern from the people. Yes, the monarch does in theory play a part, but only a formal one. The monarch would not last 5 minutes if he/she acted against a democratic decision.

    (P.S. You and I have had this argument before Anatess, and I don't think we're going to agree this time any more than last! :) )

    I will give you a perfect example.  Tommy Robinson. 

    You can say all you want that the UK government gets its mandate to govern from the people.  The fact still remains, the common Brit's freedom to speak is an indulgence given to you by the government to which it can take away.

  15. 4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

    Here in Wyoming there's a philosophy of "let local people make the rules".    A few towns have enacted mask mandates because it makes sense there (like Jackson Hole where you have tons of tourists packed into a tiny valley).  Most towns it just doesn't make sense (we're naturally distanced, small head counts, infection rates are really low).  It's totally respected that you choose to wear a mask, or ask people to wear a mask on your property (including your business), but no Big Brother is going to force you to wear a mask everywhere.

    This week, Walmart announced that they were going to mandate mask wearing as part of their national (international?) policy.  And people completely swarmed the stores before they were forced to wear a mask -- I haven't seen the aisles so packed, shelves so empty, or tensions so high since this whole thing started.  The resentment of the rule is very real, and people are deferring to other stores instead.      

    I myself... admittedly I'm irrationally resentful of it.  Yes, I'll do it because you asked, but I really don't like it.  Which is strange because when I visited Denver and had to wear a mask absolutely everywhere (those are the rules there) I was totally fine with it.  But here where I'm usually the only person in the grocery aisle ... it amazed me how resentful I was of it this weekend.  

    Oh... about wiping out aisles... Walmart AND Winn-Dixie got wiped out of Goya products which, admittedly, is the reason I went to 3 Winn-Dixies and 2 Walmarts... looking for the Goya empanada wrappers.  There's a big hole where the Goya wrappers were... I've never seen them run out!

    And guess what else... I couldn't find a single appliance store in 3 counties that has freezers in stock.

  16. Well... theaters are still closed, which really sucks.  But we've been streaming a lot.

    Extraction - loved this (rated R for violence).

    Old Guard - overall didn't like it (rated R for violence).

    Artemis Fowl - disappointing

    My Spy - didn't like it

    Charlie's Angels (with that Twilight girl) - it was so bad, my husband and I quit watching not even 30 minutes into it


  17. On 7/17/2020 at 3:19 PM, Too_picky said:

    What can I do?

    Stop being a jerk. 

    You can't control your spouse.  You can only control yourself.  So you can't stop him from being a jerk, you can only stop yourself from being a jerk.

    Do things because you love your spouse.  Don't do things because you want your spouse to do it back to you.

    If you want to rub your spouse's back, rub it.  If you don't want to rub your spouse's back, don't.  Don't do it because you expect him to rub yours right back and don't refuse to do it because you want to punish him for not rubbing your back.

    Then, starting right now... get a notebook and pen and write down at least 3 things every single day that your spouse did that you appreciate.  Three things.  Every.  Single.  Day.

  18. Interesting thing in Florida.

    So, we don't have a statewide mask mandate but we have mayors that issue mask mandates in some cities.  Walmart came out and said they are going to enforce mask mandate in all their stores.  Winn-Dixie came out and said they are not going to enforce mask mandate in all their stores to avoid conflict between their employees and their customers.  Interestingly, I just happened to go to two Super Walmarts and 3 Winn-Dixies the past few days.  Walmart customers in the mask-mandated city has mostly maskless customers even as they said they're enforcing masks.  Walmart also has those "this way/wrong way" aisle markers that most people are ignoring.  Winn-Dixie, on the other hand, had mostly masked customers even after stating they're not enforcing masks.  There was one Winn-Dixie where I didn't see a single person without a mask except for the Winn-Dixie employee gathering the carts at the parking lot.

    This is the kind of stuff, we data analysts itch to get to the bottom of.

  19. 18 hours ago, Plein Air said:

    At church today, only 2 adults did not wear masks. An older sister and a visiting 20 something brother. I was pretty surprised by the older sister not masking up. Almost every kid who could walk, wore a mask of some kind. In previous meetings according to reports from other members, at best maybe 10% of the congregation wore a mask as the high number and less than 1% as the low. The deacons did a great job passing the sacrament, leaning over the empty row in front of the member occupied rows to offer the bread and water so nobody else had to touch the tray handles. With the water, they had a second tray without the cup holder top on it so people could drop their used cups into it easily, without having to reach across or possibly touch the unused remaining water cups. I don't know where the plan for the passing method originated, but I was impressed regardless.  It was my first time back to church since mid March. It lasted about 40 minutes and included 1/3 of the ward membership, segregated alphabetically into three separate rotating meeting blocks. Three hymns including the sacrament song and one talk. It was one of the most memorable I have been a part of. After the meeting, we were asked to wipe down the wooden bench surfaces with provided sanitizer cloths in the pew where we sat.

    That's great that you're progressing towards normalcy.  It's really impressive to me how 11-13 year old boys rise to their priesthood authority when called upon, especially knowing these boys and how clumsy and how much of a goofball they can be in other things.  :)  My 16-year-old got a one-day job last Saturday constructing a lean-to carport.  I asked him, "you sure you know how to build a carport?".  Anyway, at the end of the day, the guy who owns the carport sent me a picture of what he built and I have to say, I was very, very impressed!  I have learned while raising my children that children has this amazing capacity to do great things when simply given the responsibility.

    We still haven't gone back to the ward building.  I'm completely okay with it.  I am enjoying our backyard sacrament meetings.  We're going to have a new investigator with her inactive spouse join us on Sunday.  I'm excited to meet them.  Our ward (maybe Stake, because my in-laws are still attending our backyard sacrament meetings) decided not to start ward building meetings until things go back to normal.  Our bishopric, with the help of the quorum presidencies have been checking up on everybody to make sure all active members of the ward, especially the elderly who can't have missionary visits yet, have the opportunity to have sacrament with proper priesthood authority at least once per month.  I have to say, though, I miss seeing everybody every Sunday...



  20. On 7/18/2020 at 10:29 PM, Phoenix7093 said:

    My biggest hang up is baptism, I just don't know how I'm ever going to reach it. I'm absolutely terrified at the thought of the ceremony, having people look at me, being a focus, it fills me with dread but I so want the gift of the Holy Spirit I would gain from it 

    That's not gonna be your biggest hang-up, I don't think.  Baptism can be a private affair if that's what you prefer.  You only need the priesthood authority to baptize you and 2 witnesses to make sure it's done right.

    Where you're gonna have a hang-up is membership itself.  This is not a passive church.  Being a convert is an ongoing action - receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is supposed to inspire you to share the gift with others.  There are Sunday school classes, compassionate service, church fellowship activities, church callings which could include teaching and... because you're a woman, you become an automatic member of the Relief Society and will be called upon to minister other women.  You can, of course, decline all of these.  But being an active member of the church, people will be in the habit of asking these things of you.