CV75

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Posts posted by CV75

  1. 1 hour ago, An Investigator said:

    I have been thinking for some time about Church culture,  here in the UK we are quite laid back from what I can gather compared to places with higher concentrations of Lds.  I am an educated lady, married to a Buddhist who studied feminism at uni and is a member of the Labour party in the UK.   I find myself thinking would I have been welcome in the Church anywhere else? Would I have been able to fit in and if not do you think the Church culture is a barrier to Convert retention?  

    From my experience, I think our ability to be accepted in another culture (in this case, LDS community customs and mores as expressed within a larger society other than our own) depends on our interpersonal skills, spiritual power (humility and charity) and our own tolerance level.

  2. 47 minutes ago, zil said:

    @CV75, you can't use Joseph Smith's revelations on the degrees of glory to convince Rob of anything because he already stated that he (Rob) understands what Joseph Smith saw in vision better than Joseph Smith understood it (emphasis mine):

    In other words, he's already rejected all such interpretation of these degrees of glory, including those from Joseph Smith and found in D&C.

    Thank you; I see that, which is why I'm asking him to provide another reference that might better explain this version of the afterlife. @Rob Osborn Are you the only LDS to have ever come up with this idea; who else  has put it forth?

  3. 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

    Well, we are here in the telestial kingdom and there were requirements to come here just as there will be requirements to go to the terrestrial kingdom in the millennium.

    The scriptures are quite clear that repentance and baptism are essential to be saved from hell eternally. All doctrine must fit that principle. So perhaps we do not undeestand what telestial and terrestrial law mean. I can assure you though that no man will be saved without strict obedience to repentance and baptism.

    I have always found it interesting that section 88 refers to "those of a celestial spirit" as defining them as future celestial heirs., then referring to the glory of their bodies by what glory they are quickened with. To me this is stating that those resurrected now are done so by telestial glory, those resurrected in the millennium by terrestrial glory and then at the end of the millennium the righteous will all be quickened to celestial glory.

    Regarding your remarks on requirements and essentials, all I have to say is, “yes and no; depends.” That is why I want you to answer my questions; that will help narrow down my reply.

    Regarding D&C 88, it also defines those of terrestrial and telestial spirits, and “they who remain” as future heirs of a corresponding glory, and refers to the glory of their bodies also, according with the glory with which they are quickened. This same order (celestial first, followed by terrestrial, telestial and they who remain) is reiterated in verses 94-102 with the sequence of sounding trumps, with some resurrected before and during the Millenum, others after, and yet others long after, according to their identification as firstfruits, those freed from prison, the condemned, and those that remain until the very last.

    Now getting back to my questions: Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it? Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

  4. 39 minutes ago, Traveler said:

    Thought you might be interested to know that anciently Magog was a land or country presided over by a king that was called Gog.  What is interesting is that the land of Magog is currently occupied by ISIS and that ISIS claims to have established a “Caliphate” which is a Muslim kingdom presided over by a Caliph which is a political and religious equivalent of a Christian Priest – King.  Note that Jesus is believed by Christians to be both a Priest and King and that in his fist advent he served as priest and will return for his second advent as king.

    Islam has something similar – believing Mohamed will return and to inherit a caliphate.  Some believe that Jesus will return as a prophet to assist Mohamed in uniting Christians into the caliphate.

     

    The Traveler

    Yes, thank you. I take their New Testament usage to refer to those nations "in the four quarters of the earth" that are expected to be hostile to the saints; ISIS would certainly be a current example, and who knows what they will evolve into.

  5. 53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

    So you understand then. There isnt any scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism. So then why do we, as a church, teach that unrepentant whoremongers inheirt glory?

    I understand that you haven’t answered these questions I had earlier: (1) Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it? (2) Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

    With regards to scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism, see D&C 88.

    Verse 16, “And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul, “And the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (verse 15). The earth is designed for the celestial kingdom (verses 18-20), but: “they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.” (verses 21-24). Man can be saved in the glory befitting his ability to abide that glory, and some of those glories are for those who “are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ,” in other words, repentance and baptism.

    We are not meet when we do not repent, and that occurs by degree (verses 36-39): “All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions [i.e. the law of Christ] are not justified.”

    To reiterate (verses 28-33), “They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received [the law of Christ]. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.” Regarding these, “Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads” (verse 82).

    So while everyone receives “the same body which was a natural body,” not everyone receives the same glory, and there are many glories, each with its respective law, and some reflect laws designed for those who do not abide repentance and baptism.

  6. 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

    I am suggesting that section 76 is about being saved to celestial glory or being cast into eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels.

    I may not be following your rationale. Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it?

    1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

    This shows the straightness of the path that leads to the one and only salvation. Our current doctrine teaches it is possible to never accept the gospel and after suffering for ones own sins they can be redeemed from hell. Everything is wrong with that philisophy. Here is the exact teaching-

    "Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, ch. 41)

    This is a false teaching.

    I don’t see how anyone rejecting the gospel in the spirit world would not suffer in some way. Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

    1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

    Once we correctly understand that all must be born again, through baptism becoming His sons and daughters, we will then come to realize that the dichotomy of heaven/ hell as taught by the Book of Mormon, NT, PoGp, and D&C is spot on.

    Teaching basic gospel principles in terms of two extremes does prove that only those two extremes exist.

     

  7. 13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

    The main returning argument seems to be if it is possible to remain unrepentant and without saving ordinances and still inherit a place in heaven. It seems as if the argument centers around what degree of cleanliness a person achieves vs. whether they cabe saved at all unless they are completely cleansed.

    My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment.  

    It appears your position is something different. Is this assumption correct?

    I’m not sure I understand your position enough to comment. All you’ve posited and defended are what you consider to be ten internal contradictions in D&C 76 that I don’t see supported by the verses you’ve used, and I’m not sure we’re attaching the same meaning to the same words.

    But for the sake of conversation, I believe a person is saved from physical and spiritual death through the atonement to the degree he is obedient to the spirit and the law of the fullness of the Gospel. The degree of physical salvation is reflected in the natural body he receives upon resurrection according to the glory by which his natural body is quickened. The degree of spiritual salvation is reflected in the kingdom he receives according to the measure of ministration, in other words, the presence of the Holy Spirit, Christ alone, or both Christ and the Father. An exalted person is more physically and spiritually alive than a telestial person because he does more, and with greater joy, fulfilling the Abrahamic promise with the continuations of the seeds.

    Are you suggesting that the vision in D&C 76 shows that the telestial world is mortality, that the terrestrial world is a progressive, post-resurrection stage to the eventual, virtually inevitable entry into the celestial kingdom, that the celestial kingdom is heaven, and that perdition is eternal hell? If so, how does this view help better carry out God’s work and glory and “work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory,” where eternal (endless, or God’s) hell must have an end?

  8. 3 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    I know the War in Heaven was in pre mortality when Satan rebelled and convinced 1/3 of the spirits to follow him, and I assume the war and kicking Satan and his minions out of heaven wasn't a physical conflict, but more likely a debate and spiritual power to kick them out, but I have a question about the future war. During the Millennium Satan will be bound for 1,000 years, but then at the end Satan will be loosed for a season to fight and convince more people to become Sons of Perdition before finally being defeated by Michael/Adam. My question is how will the war at the end of the Millennium when Satan is loosed for another season be fought? Will there be a real physical battle with armies or will it be more of a debate like the pre mortal council in heaven and rebellion was? And can people who have already lived on the earth like us be overcome by Satan?

    The same forces at work after the Millennium are the same ones at work just prior to the Lord's Second Coming (they are called Gog an Magog in both time periods). My observation is that the influence of Satan (the spirit of contention) is manifest in both physical and doctrinal contentions which often escalates into violence, and sometimes translates on the large scale into ideological and physical wars between nations. I think this is why the Church is somewhat focused on religious freedom of late. The saints will take their cues from the prophets as to how to respond to these wars.

  9. 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

    1. The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

    Refer to verse 17 of this same section it says " 17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust."  Repentance is doing good. It refers here to the resurrection of the unjust as they who have done evil. These possibly cant be described as once evil beings but are now repentant. No, this must refer to them as in theier future current state as still being evil otherwise Christ would remember their sin no more. The resurrection of the unjust is also called the resurrection unto damnation which refers to those wicked people who will be cast into outer darkness.

     

    2. I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able. 

    The key word here is "cleansed" from all unrighteousness. This is synonymous with being spotless. The only way to become cleansed as 40-43 state is through the waters of baptism and the Holy Ghost.

    3. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

     

    25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
    26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.Mosiah 12:25-27)

     

    4. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus. 

    Doesnt matter. If a person dies without law they cannot be judged by law. Read Moroni ch.8 "22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing"

     

    5. No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

    If one accepts Christ and vicarious baptism  in the spirit prison they become cleansed. Read D&C 138"58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
    59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

     

    6. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

    The last resurrection as previoysly mentioned is the wicked in the resurrection of the unjust. This is the resurrection of damnation. Read D&C 29 "26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
    27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
    28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

    43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
    44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
    45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

    7. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

    Read the verse it says "88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

    A resurrected being is not a ministering spirit.

     

    8. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

     

    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ

    21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    9. They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

    Read it carefully. The verse describes only two groups- those caught up who are the church of the firsborn and these telestial beings not caught up. It describes and includes every person.

     

    10. As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

    Sons of perdition are the unrepentant at judgment. That is why they are referred in the present tense at that future state as still being liars, whoremongers, etc. Christ saves all the rest and they are not ever referred to that classification .

     

    1. Of course people can repent, both here and in the spirit world, and yet repent insufficiently to enjoy a resurrection of the just and true or the just, and only sufficiently for a resurrection of the unjust. Those of perdition do not repent.

    2. Jesus came into the world to cleanse it from all unrighteousness, but that doesn’t mean everyone accepts that, as indicated in verse 52 (“that they might be cleansed…”).

    3. People who do not join the presence of God, or the fullness, are cast off to lesser kingdoms to receive lesser ministrations.

    4. Having no law is different than dying without the law due to choice and/or not receiving the testimony of Jesus (the spirit prophecy and whoever prophesies by it).

    5. These verses do address being cleansed and receiving salvation according to their works as lived in the spirit.

    6. D&C 29 teaches what I have been saying since each order of resurrection follows that initial sounding of Michael’s trump. D&C 76 fills in the details.

    7. But a resurrected being, like man and God, are spirits, and when ministering to a lesser kingdom, are ministering spirits.

    8. Paul is clearly telling them to repent of identifying themselves in terms of religion by or in the name of any human authority. His is not addressing those he calls his fellow saints, but those he is telling are called to be saints.

    9. Speaking of two groups does not deny the existence of the third. But my other, equally salient point was that the designation of “Last of all…” refers to those of the last resurrection, or the telestial heirs.

     10. Sons of perdition are certainly unrepentant but more importantly, they are worse than unrepentant, which is why Christ saves all the rest in a kingdom of some glory.

  10. 2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

    1. Why is it that only the celestial are mentioned as coming forth in the resurrection of the just if we know the resurrection of the unjust are the sons of perdition? The contradiction here is that telestial heirs are said to come forth in the second or last resurrection which is the resurrection of the unjust meaning they are not justified through Christ to be saved from an eternal hell. How then can they be saved from hell? The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

    2. Verses 40-43 describe the ones who Christ saves and makes all spotless which according to the verses is everyone but the sons of perdition. All these saved are made spotless through acceptance of the gospel according tothese verses. The contradiction here is that according to manuals, the telestial heirs never repent. How then can they be made spotless? I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able.

    3.verses 50-70 describe the resurrection of the just. The contradiction here is that these verses, according to the BoM are the only ones who can be saved while those who fail these requirements must be cast into outerdarkness. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

    4. Verse 72 mentions one group of terrestrial heirs as being those who "died without law". The contradiction here is that the scriptures state that a person who does not have the law cannot be judged by the law and are instead made whole through the atonement. A handicapped person is but one such type of individual who has died without law. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

    5. Verse 73 mentions another group of terrestrial heirs who were taught the gospel in spirit prison and accepted. The contradiction here is if they accept the gospel and are completely cleansed and have entered into the same covenant of baptism and are born again becoming a son or daughter of Christ, how come they are denied the presence of the Father in his eternal kingdom? Have they not become the very same individual as you or I? No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

    6. Verse 85 mentions a group who will not be redeemed until the last resurrection. Thecontradiction here is that the last resurrection is the resurrection of the damned and only befalls the sons of perdition. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

    7. Verse 88 mentions there will be ministering spirits that come from the terrestrial to minister to the telestial. The contradiction here is that there are only supposed to be resurrected immortals on the terrestrial world at that time not spirits. All are supposed to be resurrected at this point. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

    8. Verse 99 mentions a group who Paul addressed in the New Testament as fellow saints in Christ. The contradiction here is that Paul must have been a liar. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

    9. Verse 102 mentions a telestial group who is the only group not gathered with the members of the church of the firstborn and received intothe cloud. The glaring contradiction here is that there are only two groups here - the members of the church of the firsborn and those telestial who are not as mentioned. But, members of the church of the firstborn who are received into the cloud are only celestial heirs. This verse describes all the celestial heirs and the rest who are not gathered up who are telestial. So what about the terrestrial? They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

    10. The most glaring contradiction of all is verse 103 which are described as all liars, whoremongers, etc. The contradiction here is that this group, as cross referenced are those who partake of the second death. The second death only happens after resurrection and judgment after the millennium. The spns of perdition are the only ones according to section 76 and other scripture who partake of the second death. So why are the sons of perdition mentioned as telestial beings? As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

    1. The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

    2. I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able.

    3. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

    4. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

    5. No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

    6. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

    7. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

    8. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

    9. They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

    10. As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

  11. 7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    I met with my stake president and talked about my worries. He gave me a blessing and in it he made the pronouncement "You are clean before the Lord and God will give you power over time to more easily recognize the Holy Ghost and know that when you feel the Holy Ghost that's God cleansing you." After I was on cloud 9 and rewatched the April 2007 Gordon B Hinckley talk "I Am Clean."

    What a wonderful way to celebrate the Season and start the New Year!

  12. 10 hours ago, An Investigator said:

    Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

    What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

     

    I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

    There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

    I think rejection (like acceptance) can be mild or strong and a matter of degree. People get baptized and still accept and reject some aspects of the Gospel to some degree. The hope is to progress and repent throughout mortality. I take mortality to include everything up to the resurrection and judgement, so that would include life in the spirit world.

    I think “second chance” is a poor description of progress in the spirit world since it is but a continuation of this world, “for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.”

    I think the light of Christ calls people to whatever light they have found to be available to them, or that they have prepared themselves to receive, and that would include the light that is found in other faiths. They will continue to progress in the spirit world where the fullness of the Gospel is available to all for all to receive, and will ultimately be judged accordingly, “for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.”

    I don’t concern myself with questions of progress after the resurrection, “for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” Every child of God is responsible for finding, keeping and gaining more of the light he has available to him. and not judging others.

  13. 3 hours ago, Traveler said:

    I mentioned the likelihood this weekend to a member friend that Jesus was born in a cave and not a stable and the friend reprimanded me for “teaching contrary to scripture”.  This surprised me a little so I asked where they thought Jesus was born and the response was a stable as the scriptures clearly indicate.  So I asked – Where in the scriptures they got that idea?  And why they believed such contrary to scripture stuff that Jesus was born in a stable.

    People ask me if I was born in a barn all the time... :)

    But if He was laid in a manger, the manger must have been located in at least a functional stable, even if it was a cave or a sheep-cot.

  14. 10 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    I'm about to sell the last of my R rated movies and have 3 M rated video games left too. Should I sell them as well since an M rated game is the equivalent of an R rated movie and they have blood and nudity. The games are Mass Effect 3 which has a sex scene that you work for to happen and lots of blood, and God of War 3, and God of War Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta double disc which has loads and loads and loads of blood, guts, intestines, and nudity and sex, including having sex with up to 12 women at once off camera to gain orbs for weapons. We are told to rid ourselved of R rated movies and Mature rated video games correct? I haven't found where it's been said but I'm sure it is. The 2 movies are Deadpool and Aqua Teen Hunder Force.

    DO IT

    https://i.imgflip.com/d41wb.gif

  15. On 12/3/2016 at 5:20 PM, Zarahemla said:

    Temples are houses of God, yet in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were just in nature and didn't worship in a temple. Another question is why were altars used up until King Solomon? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob weren't worshipping in temples and they're considered already exalted. Moses had a traveling altar with him and the people of Israel. Adam built an altar after being kicked out of the Garden of Eden. So why weren't temples come into play in the scriptures until King Solomon? Were the people before him just traveling from one place to another too much to build a stable house of worship to remain in one place, or is there a deeper meaning? Now we have 155 dedicated LDS temples in use around the world and I live within a 30 minute drive of 4 temples. Are we just spoiled today? Also, do you think there will be temples in the Celestial Kingdom?

    I'm not sure we can conclude that there wasn't a temple in the Garden of Eden (or any other time before Moses) just because it isn't specifically mentioned in the surviving texts.

    Here's an interesting article: https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/sperry-symposium-classics-old-testament/melchizedek-seeking-after-zion-enoch

    “President Brigham Young believed that there were temples in the city of Enoch. He said, “I will not say but what Enoch had Temples and officiated therein, but we have no account of it.” Similarly, concerning the possibility of temples in the city of Enoch, Elder Franklin D. Richards said, “I expect that in the city of Enoch there are temples; and when Enoch and his people come back, they will come back with their city, their temples, blessings and powers.””

    “Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived in the first century after Christ, knew of a tradition that Melchizedek, not Solomon, was the first person to build a temple of the Lord in Palestine. “Its [Salem’s] original founder was a Canaanite chief, called in the native tongue ‘Righteous King’ [or Melchizedek]; for such indeed he was. In virtue thereof he was the first to officiate as priest of God and, being the first to build the temple, gave the city, previously called Solyma [or Salem], the name of Jerusalem.””

  16. 4 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    Right but you can't do sealing ceremonies for dead people who were single because we don't know who to seal them to.

    But we do (or can, or will) know who to seal together as couples. See https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-eternal-marriage?lang=eng (which is about D&C 132), where the righteous in heaven communicate with the righteous on earth. This is especially so in the Millennium: see D&C88:100, where "above" is Zion in heaven and "beneath" is Zion on earth. The Lord certainly knows all His children, and as demonstrated with Adam and Eve, is the perfect matchmaker.

  17. 2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    But should the church be transparent with it's finances? Why or why not?

    I think transparency in religious fiscal matters and common consent (as a religious principle) in the Church have the same relationship as knowledge and faith. While it is difficult to tease out how much knowledge the Lord imparts before He requires the application of faith in gaining more (and vice-versa), the desire to believe is incipient to both knowledge and faith. In the same way, transparency (a quality and mechanism for expressing knowledge) and common consent (a quality and mechanism for expressing faith) stimulate each other so that both are sufficient. And since transparency is not the absence of color there are many multiple kinds or “colors” of transparency, often driven by the eye of the beholder in faith.

  18. 2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    I mean all churches, not just the LDS church. Churches bring in billions of dollars every year and if they were taxed that money could really help the economy. The LDS church has billions of dollars and is not taxed, while I only have thousands of dollars and I'm taxed more than I can breathe. If the church was taxed, more tithing would not be required from the members, because 10 percent is a set amount. I honestly think it would be great for the American economy if all churches that brought in money were taxed. Also, it would allow the church to openly speak out about political issues finally.

    I'm sure the LDS Church would do just fine if she were taxed (and I believe she is in some countries). The pros and cons are political and constitutional in nature. I'm sure the Church would oppose a change in tax-exempt status on grounds of the free exercise of religion of her members, in that their charitable giving is something in which the government does not rightly receive a percentage of.

  19. 2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    I want eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom, but am single and worry about if I don't get to be married in this life because I'd wind up a ministering angel forever:

    16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

     17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

     

    There's no scripture that says I'll have a chance at marriage if I die single, but there is scripture that says if I die single or don't marry in the temple in this life I'll be stuck single and as a servant for the rest of eternity, never able to have eternal life.

    The various ordinances of the temple are described in the D&C, and section 128 forms the basis for all other temple work conducted in behalf of the dead. This is seen in section 138, where we see that "vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, And all other principles of the gospel…" qualify them to "live according to God in the spirit," which explains why “among the righteous there was peace…”

  20. 41 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

    When I think preaching of the word of God, I think of Enoch and his city. This was accomplished due to the preaching of the word which lead a whole city to do that which was just enough that they were brought back into the presence of God -- a whole city (even teenagers in that city). If not for the preaching of Enoch, his city would have never occurred. If not for the preaching of Ammon and his brethren whole cities would not have been converted and we would not have had the great stories in the Book of Mormon. The Sons of Helaman, none of them died, due to the preaching of their mothers, as they exclaim, "and they rehearsed unto me the words of their mothers, saying: We do not doubt our mothers knew it." How would these sons have performed if not for the preaching of the word from their mothers? Would they have been the just sons they were if not for the preaching of the word from their mothers? No.

    Let's look at prophecies of the of Zion, "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established; thou shalt be far from oppression for thou shalt not fear, and from terror for it shall not come near thee." (3 Nephi 22)

    One of Nephi's greatest statements comes from his thoughts toward his father's words, "And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men." What caused Nephi to lead a just life and to be the man he became?

    The teaching of the word will lead more people to do justly than any other philosophy.

    Yes, Nephi "heard all the words" of his father and after was "desirous also" to have his father's knowledge. In this way, his desire -- and I believe even the most wicked have some spark of desire remaining -- allowed him to apply the testimony he had heard. Abraham says that he very actively sought the knowledge of his ancient fathers despite those of more recent generations having fallen away--evidently those who taught him were not of his nearer family. At any rate, this preaching has a more powerful effect on the mind "than the sword, or anything else" that happens to people. I think we see this in the many ways people have endured horrendous abuse and hardship and yet find the spirituality that I believe comes only from the light of Christ which penetrates all things (Viktor Frankl is often used as an example of this).

  21. 3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

    Certainly, I agree that there is a close causal connection between the preaching of the word and the saving of souls and the preaching of the word is usually a necessary precondition that must be met for a soul to be saved. However, the sad fact is that the preaching of the word usually has minimal or no effect at all on the minds of the vast majority of those who are exposed to it. I think that most returned missionaries will be able to attest to that. Of all those who they encounter and preach to, how many react to and accept their word in a positive way? How many remember it the next day and think more upon it? Some, but very few. This idea, that only very few will respond favourably to the word is suggested by

     

    (New Testament | Luke 13:23 - 24)

     

    23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?  And he said unto them,

     

    24  ¶ Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

     

    (Old Testament | Jeremiah 3:14)

     

    14  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

     

    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:7)

     

    7  And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;

     

    And of course, we have the example of the Saviour. His preaching of the word led to His execution, an action that appeared to be supported by the majority of the people, while only a small minority seem to have accepted and believed what He said. 

    Another way to look at this is the difference between having “a great tendency to lead” and having an absolute imposition. The word of God does not force or compel, but invites in such a way as to be almost* perfectly successful in drawing the hearts (agency) of the children to God, to some degree, to do that which is just, even if it is merely to bow the knee and confess. The apparent lack of success Jesus had in His mortality is most temporary and is more than offset by His actual accomplishments as “the Word” before and after those 33 years.

    I say “almost*” because while some souls can only “abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory,” the truth that every other mind is at least somewhat improved is evidenced by there being kingdoms of glory for “an innumerable company of angels,” and “inhabitants… as innumerable as the stars.” That each higher kingdom “excels in all things the glory of the [lesser], even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion,” is an indicator that perhaps the higher kingdoms have more inhabitants than the lesser! That is certainly the case with the sons of perdition…

    I would also say that almost everyone I’ve shared the gospel with, even if they didn’t fully receive it on the terms of Church membership, went away having grown, or with a better tendency to grow, from the experience (even if only to stop fighting with me).

    The scriptural accounts seem to record only exceptional cases to teach a principle; the same with parables. To me, the genius of Joseph Smith’s revelations is that they show the love and wisdom, mercy and justice of God with a perspective that transcends a division between sheep and goats. I think this helps us understand how the preaching of the word has a great tendency to lead us to do that which is just.

  22. 13 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    When Adam and Eve were created they were placed in the Garden of Eden naked and lived that way peacefully for a long time. It wasn't until they ate the fruit and Satan was the one that pointed out their nakedness. They weren't ashamed until that point and God wasn't ashamed of their nakedness. In heaven we will all have resurrected perfected bodies and perfected minds if we are in the CK and there will be no lust nor inappropriate thoughts about another person. You might ask what about all the white robes that mortals see angels wearing? Well that could be just how the angels appear to us mortals because we suffer from lusts, fallen minds and self consciousness about nakedness because of our society. What would be the need for clothes in the Celestial Kingdom if everyone is perfect and we are pure like Adam and Eve were in the Garden. If you think I'm crazy for coming to this conclusion, then why did God put Adam and Eve in the Garden naked instead of immediately giving them clothes? Wearing a white robe for eternity sounds boring anyway. But robes could be put on if Celestial beings visit lower kingdoms and people on earth.

    “And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.” (D&C 130:2) Clothes are part of that "sociality" as a key means of interpersonal communication and expression of intent, especially where the Celestial Kingdom is a material world (in a good way!).

  23. 7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

    Since I was in the primary, what's been pounded into my head is obedience, obedience, obedience to those in charge and in authority above me. The only problem with that is every great hero I can think of disobeyed obedience and rebelled. I'm talking America against the British, with the Boston Tea Party and the Revolutionary War. That was the Americans rebelling and look how that turned out. They are heroes. Just look at the movies, mainly the Star Wars franchise. You have the empire and then you have the rebel alliance who are what? Rebels. And they are the heroes. They are not obedient to the empire. Most all my favorite video games involve the heroes rebelling and being disobedient to the evil people in charge. So just how important is obedience in our daily lives, when we've seen rebellion throughout history being shown as acts of heroism. I know obviously we have to be obedient to God and Jesus, but what about others?

    I think D&C 134 might offer some insight into what constitutes the loss of legitimacy in government. I picked out a few:

    Wholesale abuse of the citizens with impunity with regards to “the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life” or abusing the equity and justice of the rule of law, should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign. Sedition and rebellion are warranted only when refused protection “in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments.”

    I think as long as we have a Constitution, we need to uphold it and work within its framework to change our condition (D&C 98:5-6).