Rob Osborn

No, it's not a rubber stamp. That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that eternal marriage is an ordinance performed in our kingdom now that enables one, through obedience to God's laws, to advance and be able to receive greater blessings of exaltation.

Maybe not? What are you saying then?

I think we say the same thing.

For those interested, read and pray over 2 Nephi ch. 31 to know this mystery.

We can be eternally married now even though we aren't in the Celestial kingdom yet. Eternal marriage is thus prerequsite to entering the highest glory of the Celestial kingdom. Not only that but eternal marriage is allowed now. And we aren't in the Celestial kingdom are we? We are in a lower kingdom right now aren't we? God thus not only recognizes marriage, or "sealings" in lower orders of kingdoms but also provides means for it to happen.

I might add one more thing- If marriage is only recognized in the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom, then we shouldn't be married right now.

There is an interesting view going on here. Is this world "a" telestial world, or is it "the" telestial world? And, as such, why do we think it is different that "a" versus "the" would have different laws? My understanding is the same as the temple that we are in "the" telestial world/ kingdom. Bruce R. McConkie taught that telestial law was a carnal law. Not sure how a carnal law sanctifies. He got that wrong. In the endowment we are taught that telestial law consists of the lower portions of the Celestial law which included covenants pertaining to sexual relations with ones spouse. Telestial law regarding spouses states that sexual relations are only to be had between one spouse where they are legally and lawfully married. God not only recognizes marriage in the telestial kingdom but also recognizes and allows for sexual relations between lawfully wedded spouses in the telestial kingdom. People will say though that this telestial kingdom is not the same telestial kingdom after resurrection and judgment and as such has different laws, abilities, etc. I say, wow, that's strange. That's like saying even though we live in the telestial kingdom we aren't governed by laws of a telestial kingdom. That's an oxymoron. If one carefully reads the Proclamation they will come across this paragraph- "In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally." The family relationship, which includes sexual relationships within legally recognized marriages, are perpeptuated beyond the grave. It's part of what identifies us and within the bonds of marriage sexual relations are a holy thing that has sanctifying powers. We tend to think of sex as a dirty or carnal practice. Or, on the other hand think it can only be utilized by God's themselves as some rite of passage. God sees it differently. He not only recognizes sex as the uniting purpose in man, he commands that man and woman should be joined together in order to fill the measure of their creation. Not only that, he gives this procreative power to man in the lowest portion of the law in the telestial kingdom. It's a recognized practice and law in the telestial kingdom.

I did notice. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of "essential" and how it relates to "purpose" and thus functionality and anatomy together.

He was in error. The Proclamation makes it clear that gender is an essential characteristic of one's purpose and identity in eternity.

Love you too.

You really don't understand what the baptismal covenant means and it's part in the plan of salvation. If you did it's rather obvious why it's a paradox.

Yeah thanks for your continual condescending nature I don't really care to discuss it any further with you. Good day.

Well, if one understood the nature of repentance and baptism and the process of what happens there they would realize the paradox. It doesn't appear you want to discuss so I won't. Good day.

Whatever, have a nice day.

Well, there's certainly more to the story of Adam and Eve and Satan and the plan than we know. The important part is that laws exist and either rewards or punishment laying either way. Evil doesn't require evil to already exist for it to come into being to begin with. As such, righteousness doesn't depend on evil existing to come to pass.

I'm not sure what their ultimate fate is. For those who don't commit the unpardonable sin I believe that nothing is impossible from them changing.

No, I don't believe it's an eternal truth. I think it's a paradox.

Not yet, not yet, but in order to be saved I got to get there.

I see it slightly different. A selfish person, unwilling to obey and work hard isn't even worthy of hire and until they change their outlook and heart don't merit salvation. The ticket is that people can change and most will.

The gospel is structured in a manner in which all the covenants depend on each other and lead naturally into the next higher, and so on. The first saving covenant we make, yea, the very gate is repentance and baptism and the covenant promise we make is to be obedient to all God commands us to do (speaking of futurity). Failure of this leads to a loss of salvation because it would mean we defy Christ.

I would love to discuss but the time has passed, you slammed the door shut. You need to learn to speak with a more Christlike attitude. Take it positively, I'm trying to help you.

What section 88 isn't exactly clear on is the resurrection and kingdoms. It does speak of one recieving their body according to the glory of their resurrection. Now, we know that since Christ the resurrection has already begun. But what glory has their resurrection been with? This is the grand key in my opinion. A body is resurrected by the glory which it is quickened with. It is the earth and glory of that it posseses that resurrects. Thus, because we now enjoy telestial glory all those resurrected to this point have been resurrected by telestial glory. The key word on section 88 is where it says all those of a "Celestial spirit" meaning those living according to a Celestial law in the spirit world are able to be resurrected first and they are resurrected by the glory at that time. The earth, even though it abides a Celestial law, it only has telestial glory at this time and thus as a mother bearing children in this sense, resurrects with that glory. That said, all resurrected bodies will be quickened to terrestrial glory when Christ comes again.

How does being snide contribute to the discussion at hand?

The way I read Holland's statement is that the specific wording of this world being the telestial kingdom is the same as the temple and scripture. I'm not sure what his actual detailed thoughts are, none of us do. What we do know is that no differentiation has been explained by Elder Holland to say they are different kingdoms. I honestly would hope that he believes we are in the telestial kingdom now and progress through the terrestrial and then into the Celestial just as the temple teaches. I expect he is more of a temple knowledge master and thus understands the true meaning and placement of the kingdoms. But, he probably reserves most of his beliefs to himself.

Several recent topics have got me thinking again about truth and the plan. As was posted in an earlier post Elder Dallin H. Oaks spoke in our last conference and gave this talk and spoke about the truth and the plan in reference to both the plan of salvation and the Proclamation. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/truth-and-the-plan?lang=eng As I was reading and contemplating things this past weekend several words came manifest before my own understanding. Those words were "structure" and "axioms". These both relate to truth in the gospel. In his talk, something stuck out at me as not fitting into the structure of the plan of salvation nor did I see it as an axiom of truth. Here is the quote- "The purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ is to qualify His children for the highest degree of glory, which is exaltation or eternal life. For those who do not desire or qualify for that, God has provided other, though lesser, kingdoms of glory. Anyone who understands these eternal truths can understand why we members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints think as we do and do as we do." I bolded the part that caused me to contemplate. And so I read what the Proclamation actually says, which is an axiom of truth. Here- "..the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children...Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny...IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life." As I read this I contemplated this truth regarding our destiny as heirs of eternal life. There is no part of Gods plan that doesnt produce this end result. I cant fathom the thought that someone could enter into His plan and at some point not "desire" what we came for and still find glory in the end. Thats like saying Gods plan isnt really to give eternal life to all his children he saves but rather save them in varrying degrees of complacency and laziness. We are taught another axiom of truth that all of Gods laws and ordinances are to both save us and grant us eternal life. Another axiom according to the structure of the plan is that families are "central" to the plan of salvation. Put into action, no man is saved unless he is saved into and with his family in eternity. As I look over these axioms of our belief it helps me to understand the structure of the gospel and that when something is said contrary to one of these axioms we should not hold it as "truth". Truth is dependent on the entire structure and axioms that cannot be changed from the foundation of the world. It is my belief that no one who ends up saved from hell in the end has grown to desire a status short of godliness. Its basically saying "yes, we desire salvation at thy hand Lord, but do not desire to be obedient to thy commands."