Jersey Boy

In my considered opinion, I believe every address I’ve heard thus far in this session of conference is inspired of God enough to be included in the Standard Works of the church. It’s also very evident to me that that the Lord has a very “deep bench” of dynamic spiritual leaders who could be called upon to become apostles.

The original question you were pondering is how is it possible that a highly intelligent spirit son of God, one who was also a major participant in the council in heaven, could not know the mind and purposes of God in relation to the creation of man and the fall? I addressed your question by highlighting verses from Alma 12 that teach when a man descends into outer spiritual darkness due to his total rebellion against God, that man loses whatever portion of divine light and knowledge he once possessed, and, as Alma testified, ultimately gets to the point where he knows nothing pertaining to the mind, will and purposes of God. Lucifer is most certainly the prototypical example of a once spiritually enlightened individual who descends into total spiritual darkness and loses the any and all ability to rightly discern between good and evil. The interesting point to ponder with regard to those who suffer the total loss of God’s light is to consider how a human mind might process thoughts after a complete absence of divine light is removed. A human mind totally devoid of the influence of the light of Christ is hard to imagine because how many of us have actually met a son of perdition (a man in whom the uplifting and enlightening light of God has been totally extinguished)? Nevertheless, I would say that those few who actually do become sons of perdition must have a very defective and warped way of processing their thoughts because their minds are utterly devoid of God’s true eternal perspective on all things, and a human mind utterly devoid of divine light must therefore be totally blind when it comes to properly perceiving and understanding the things of God. Therefore all bets are off when it comes to just how blind, delusional and distorted the thought processes of the sons of perdition might be.

The following verses found in Alma 12 appear to be particularly applicable to this situation. Apparently it’s possible for a man to possess some degree of the knowledge of God through inspiration from the Almighty, but if that man hardens his heart against the knowledge of God he has thus far received, and continues to remain in that hardened state of mind without remorse of conscience and repentance, he will eventually forget what he once knew in what appears to be a state of spiritual amnesia. It seems that once the spirit of revelation is lost through rebellion, clarity of thought ends and all that remains to be perceived and understood emanates from a bottomless pit of lies and distortions of truth. 9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. 10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

The expression “all things shall become subject unto him” is not necessarily referring to exaltation. In the end, at the time of the final judgement, all the sons of men, with the exception sons of perdition, will eventually come unto Christ in faith and accept him as their Lord and Savior, willingly becoming subject to his rulership. This is evidenced by the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 which are speaking of the inheritors of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory… 106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; The above verse is pointing to the fact that those wicked individuals, who are thrust into the spirit prison at the time of death, will, sooner or later, eventually seek deliverance from their imprisonment and suffering, in the full realization that the only way to bring their agonies to an end is to come unto Christ in faith and accept deliverance and a degree of salvation at his hand through faith in his atoning sacrifice, as these additional verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly bear record… 109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; 111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; 112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (Doctrine and Covenants 76) From the above verses we understand that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of heavenly glory will 1) Confess to God the Father on the day of judgement that Jesus is Lord and Savior. 2) Through their acceptance of Christ, they will be made worthy and fit to enter a mansion of heavenly glory that Christ has prepared for them. 3) Through their travails in the spirit prison, and their eventual deliverance through repentance, they will become spiritually transformed enough to become servants of God in eternity, though they will not dwell in his immediate presence. To encapsulate: becoming subject unto Christ is not necessarily synonymous with receiving eternal life.

With regard to your question, what follows are 2 excerpts from the Standard Works that may help you to reconcile the two seemingly contradictory verses that you found in the Doctrine and Covenants. 38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, IT IS THE SAME. (Doctrine and Covenants 1) In the above verse the Lord testifies that his appointed messengers, whom he clothes with great power and glory, are enabled able to preach the gospel in a manner so powerful that it’s tantamount to hearing the gospel preached by the Lord himself. One of the most powerful examples of this kind of divinely empowered preaching is found in the Book or Revelation, wherein an angel speaks to the Apostle John in the first person, as if he is the Lord Jesus Christ himself. This mighty angel appears to be so much like the risen Lord that the Apostle John, someone who knew the Savior most intimately, was confused and about to bow before the angel and worship him, but the angel forbade to do so, making it clear that he is but an angel. In the following 3 verses from Revelation 22, this angel first speaks to John in the first person, as if he’s the Savior. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keeper the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. This amazing principle of divine empowerment is referred to in the restored gospel as “divine investiture of authority.” It’s by means of this principle of divine investiture that the Lord Jesus Christ occasionally speaks in the scriptures in the first person, as if he is God the Father. With this mighty principle of divine investiture of authority in mind, it’s not hard to imagine that the spirits in prison had a very powerful encounter with the redemptive power of Jesus Christ, even though he wasn’t personally there with them.

The ordinances of the temple reveal great in plainness the role of exalted women as forever brides, exalted mothers, queens of heaven, and holy priestesses in eternity. If any fail to see and comprehend the perfectly obvious teachings of the temple (sacred things that aren’t as yet revealed with equal clarity in our present-day canon of scripture), then I imagine they will have to prepare themselves to continue grouping around in the darkness for answers that have already been graciously given unto them in simplicity. The key here is to understand that eternal progression is one eternal round, and that God the Father was once a man who was sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to a faithful woman who became our Mother in Heaven, and that they unitedly overcame the fallen nature and obtained exaltation through faith in the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of God, the great offering of Spirit, heart and soul through which all things exist. But I guess there should be no surprise in the fact that many fail to see what is so obviously placed before them because “looking past the mark,” and unnecessarily overcomplicating things, has always been one fallen man’s most common failings.

The unsaved (meaning the sons of perdition) have great reason to fear the resurrection from the dead due to the fact that while they are dead and languishing in hell they are at least cut off from the immediate presence of God, and nothing brings more terror into the hearts of the sons of perdition than the thought of being brought out of hell and placed in the immediate presence of God through the resurrection. Why? Because as resurrected beings they are placed in a state wherein they will be able to experience the full brunt of the second death — or death of the spirit; for as Mormon testified, when they see the glory of God the holiness of Jesus Christ it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon them. Simply put, to the unsaved the resurrection is the ultimate curse because for them it will be as if there were no redemption made. For the sons of perdition, being lifted up to the presence of God while in their filthy, unsaved state is a worse hell than being in hell. 16 Yea, behold, this death (of Christ) bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual. 17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord. 18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness. 19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death. (Helaman 14)

And here are 2 more verses from the Book of Mormon that even more graphically reveal why those who remain “filthy still” at the time of the resurrection and final judgement will be filled with such terror at the mere thought of having to come face to face with the Lord: 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. 5 For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you. (Mormon 9)

In the following verse, Alma the Younger explains why some fear the resurrection; the reason being that the sons of perdition would rather hide away forever from the presence of them Lord, in regions of spiritual darkness, rather than undergo resurrection and have to behold God’s holy face at the final judgement in heaven while they remain in their filthiness. 31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye. (Mosiah 27)

The following observations on this subject are from the Prophet Joseph Smith: “After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his Sins & is baptized for the remission of his Sins & recieves the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands,) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God hungering & thirsting after righteousness & living by every word of God, & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted, &c. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & find that the man is determind to serve him at all hazard then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to recieve the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the Saints as is recorded in the testimony of St. John in the XIV ch from the 12 to the 27 vers note the 16-17-18-21:23 verses Now what is this other Comforter it is no more or less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself & this is the sum & substance of the whole matter that when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time Even he will manifest the Father unto him & they will take up there abode with him & the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him & the Lord will teach him face to face & he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God.” Discourse, between circa 26 June and circa 2 July 1839, as Reported by Wilford Woodruff, pp. 32-34, The Joseph Smith Papers.

I believe it’s very likely that, much like Alma the Younger, the penitent thief’s sinful journey through life had finally brought him to the point where he was genuinely sorry for all the wrongs he had done, and that when he cried out to the Lord in faith he was deeply sincere and in a state of authentic contrition. No doubt the Savior keenly perceived the thief’s profound remorse of conscience and passionate profession of faith in him, and for these reasons it could very well be that the man’s change of heart was felt deeply enough to spare him the fate of being cast into the spirit prison with the unrepentant thief. As a consequence, it’s possible that immediately after he died the repentant thief was brought to a place in the spirt world where he was far better off spiritually than the unrepentant thief who was cast into the spirit prison. So at least when compared to where the unrepentant thief ended up after his death (hell), the repentant thief was, spiritually speaking, very likely in a far better place than hell, a place and condition where his opportunities to fully embrace the gospel would be greatly facilitated. In a manner of speaking, it might very well be that the penitent thief was in a place in the spirit world that’s much closer to the paradisiacal state than to the spirit prison. It’s also possible that the Lord granted the thief the special privilege of actually being able to enter paradise itself, where the Savior was about to preach the gospel to the spirits of the righteous dead who were gathered there in the joyous anticipation of his arrival. What better time, place and condition for the repentant thief to hear the gospel preached than by the Son of God himself immediately death? After all, the Lord promised the man that he would be with him in paradise, not separated from him. It appears that it would be somewhat disingenuous and misleading for the Lord answer the penitent thief’s heartfelt plea to “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom” with “today shalt thou be with me in paradise,” when what he actually meant was ‘today you and I will be in the spirit world, but I will be in paradise and you will be in hell.’ I believe that in all likelihood the penitent thief was fully sincere in his repentance, and for this reason he escaped the condemnation of hell in the same way that Alma the Younger instantly escaped the condemnation of hell after coming unto Christ with full purpose of heart. It’s often said in the church that there’s no such thing as deathbed repentance, but isn’t that tantamount to what happened to Alma the Younger when he was delivered from the pains of hell instantaneously, immediately after crying unto the Son of God for deliverance? Therefore in answer to your question, the Savior’s heartening promise made to the repentant thief very likely is close enough to the spirit of the actual truth for us to be able to rightly leave the verse just as it is.

The expression “they are one God” in verse 4 is referring specifically to Christ in his simultaneous roles as the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, the Creator (Father) of all things in heaven and earth when an unembodied Spirit, and the Father of salvation through the atonement to all who believe on his name. Hopefully, the following annotated verses will help make things clear… 3 The Father (Christ is here being referred to as the Father of our of salvation) because he was conceived by the power of God (I.e. Christ was endowed with the divine power needed in order to successfully offer an infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice while in the flesh); and the Son, because of the flesh (the same person whom we call the Father of heaven and earth and the Father of our salvation is also be called the Son of God because he is the literal earthly Son of Elohim); thus becoming the Father and Son (the Father because he is the Father of heaven and earth, as well as the Father of our salvation through the atonement, and he is also the Son because Elohim is the literal Father of his earthly body). 4 And they (i.e. the Father of heaven and earth, the Father of our salvation, and the Son of God in the flesh) are one God (in this particular instance the prophet is speaking of only one personage, namely Jesus Christ), yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. (Mosiah 15) These seemingly inscrutable words of Abinadi become clear when it’s understood that in these verses the prophet is speaking of Christ in his dual fatherly role as the Father of heaven and earth, and even more especially as the atoning Father of salvation.

There is no “probably” about it. The Lord makes it perfectly clean that the intelligences that existed before the organization of spirit bodies had free will, and if it were not so nothing could exist. 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

What do you think you will gain if you decide to believe there is no God? I’m being quite serious about this. I’m very interested to learn how you think you might benefit if you decide to surrender to unbelief?

I largely agree with the second paragraph. The only problem is that in order for the fair-minded concepts of the second paragraph to be fulfilled there can be no room for accidental and/or untimely deaths that prematurely thrust those who haven’t been given enough time to believe and repent into a state of existence where they will automatically be barred from entry into the celestial kingdom because, as you said, the spirit world requires less faith to believe.

I’ll respond to the thoughts in your second paragraph later, as I have something I presently need to do. But I’ll take a moment to say that if one of the reasons why it’s not possible for those who take advantage of their “second chance,” by embracing the gospel in the spirit world, to eventually obtain the celestial kingdom is because less faith is required there to know the gospel is true, then we’re right back where we started! How could it be considered fair and just if someone who rejected the gospel in the flesh at age 25, but then is shortly thereafter killed by a drunk driver, to be placed in a state of existence that will necessarily preclude him from obtaining the fullness of salvation? Meanwhile, if the same man had lived to the ripe age of 85 he would have had a much better chance to accept the gospel before death and strive with his might to obtain eternal life. If God truly is fair and just, it appears patently unreasonable that someone would be deprived of his opportunity to strive toward exaltation due to unfortunate circumstances that were not his fault.

Why do those desperately wicked and rebellious souls, like Alma the Younger, who at first reject the gospel message but later receive it while still in the flesh, have a pathway open to obtain the celestial kingdom, while the not so not desperately wicked, who receive the gospel after death, can only hope to obtain a terrestrial glory? What’s so magical about death that a balanced application of mercy and justice no longer seems to apply after one’s mortal body is laid down the grave? If Alma had died during his exquisite spiritual suffering, before thinking to cry out to the Savior for mercy, would he have only been able to obtain a terrestrial glory as well? If so, why? It seems terribly unfair that an untimely and/or accidental death, something that one often has no control over, could mightily change one’s spiritual destiny forever.

You seem to fail to take into consideration the fact that the atonement of Christ is infinite and eternal, extending forever backward and forever forward in one eternal round. If it weren’t for the fact that the atonement is infinite and eternal nothing could exist, including the elemental intelligences (the free agents Doctrine and Covenants 93 calls the “light of truth”) that existed prior to being organized in heaven as the spirit sons and daughters of God. In point of fact, if it weren’t for the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ nothing would or could exist. The only reason why agency and free will exist in any of the realms of existence is because of the foundational reality of the infinite and eternal atonement that replaces nonexistence (chaos) with existence. The atonement of Christ is the very glue or binding agent that allows all things to exist and consist, and without it agency cannot exist. Why? Because without the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ all things would be a compound in one, without sense or sensibility; in other words, nothing would exist. Until it’s firmly understood that the atonement of Christ is the very foundational matrix upon which all reality, element, intelligence, thought and action exist, the erroneous idea that intelligences and things can exist outside of the atonement of Christ will begin to sap the mind of light and truth. The Book of Mormon even goes so far as to say that if there were no atoning Christ even God the Father himself could not exist! 7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. (2 Nephi 11)

Context is all-important when it comes to gaining a correct understanding of the word of God, and by presenting the above verse in isolation and out of context.you misunderstand the actual intended meaning of the words. The verses that precede Mormon 9:5 make it clear that Mormon is speaking of those who will remain in their sins as implacable enemies of Christ at the time of the final judgement. In other words, Mormon is speaking of none other than the unbowed and unrepentant sons of perdition who remain ‘filthy still,’ even after the resurrection. Doctrine and Covenants sections 76 and 138 makes it clear that all will eventually come unto Christ, receive a remission of their sins, and inherit a blessed kingdom of heavenly glory befitting their degree of faith and diligence, except for the sons of perdition. 1 And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ. 2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that agreat day when the bearth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall cmelt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God? 3 Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a aconsciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your afilthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the bdamned souls in chell. (Mormon 9)

Yes, because denying the Holy Ghost is not only a turning away from God and an abandonment one’s sure and certain spiritual testimony that the gospel is true, but it also amounts to a rejection of the Holy Ghost’s witness that exercising faith in the redemptive power of Christ is the only way to receive forgiveness of one’s sins and thereafter obtain an inheritance in one of the three kingdoms of heavenly glory.

In accord with your correct understanding of Doctrine and Covenants 19, the reason why the suffering for sin of the sons of perdition truly is endless is because they utterly refuse to exercise faith in Christ and repent of their sins. The ‘unpardonable sin’ is the steadfast refusal to come unto Christ to obtain pardon.

Christ’s intercessory prayer makes it clear that his disciples had not yet received the Holy Ghost, even though it was at the end of his earthly ministry, and he told them that they wouldn’t receive the Holy Ghost until sometime after his resurrection. On that holy night of the Last Supper and his entry into Gethsemane, the Lord instructed his disciples that as long as he remained in mortality they could not receive the Holy Ghost, but that he would send forth the Holy Ghost to abide with them soon after his resurrection. In fulfillment of this promise, the resurrected Lord’s disciples did receive the Holy Ghost soon thereafter on the Day of Pentecost. What this indicates is that Judas had not received the Holy Ghost and it’s therefore unlikely that he’s a son of perdition.

Why don’t you spend some quality time in a sincere attempt to learn what the Latter-Day Saints actually believe instead of asking silly, ill informed questions that make it obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about? Rather than spoon feed you the correct information, I suggest you read, study and deeply ponder Doctrine and Covenants 138 and you’ll get the information you need to be set straight as to whether or not the inheritors of the lower kingdoms of heavenly glory will have a covenantal relationship with Christ. But I’ll cut you some slack because, in all honesty, most Latter-Day Saints are clueless when it comes to what Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 actually teach.

And the fact that it was also widely known that courageous Jesus was also a worker of many mighty miracles, including the raising of the dead, had to have added to the trepidation of those who were sent to arrest him.

The way the narrative unfolds makes it a virtual certainty that it was the enemies of Christ who fell backward, not the Lord’s disciples. And why wouldn’t Christ’s enemies be fearful, as it was common knowledge that Christ was a worker of great miracles, including the ability to raise corpses from the dead? Christ had also only very recently demonstrated himself to be an extraordinarily fearless and intimidating figure, as he had only recently aggressively thrown the money changers out of the temple in a justifiable demonstration of divine outrage. In light of these things, I would imagine the band who had come to arrest Christ were filled with great fear and apprehension, dreading the possibility that he might use his miraculous power on them to their overthrow. Their nerves were likely already at a hair-trigger when he was asked who he was, and when he calmly and boldly answered them “I Am,” they blew a gasket.