mgridle

Not really. They have probably only been discussing it at the Q12 and FP level for a couple of years. They probably first started talking about it after 2013 and had informal or formal discussions about it since then. But I highly doubt it left the Q12 or FP level. With MormonLeaks out there, I just don't see it possible for formal discussions to be had outside of the Q12 without that information being published. People can't keep a secret these days so . . . They probably have some high-level ideas at the Q12 level, but to actually implement a program like this requires a significant amount of work-that includes committees, representatives, printing materials, deciding what materials to print, leadership structure, etc. etc. etc. It's a lot of work. I guarantee you the moment they start to actually do the nitty gritty work required to actually develop a program, rumors would start to fly. As soon as rumors fly then the current program is toast. It's kind of like hiring a new football coach. The administration has high level talks, puts out feelers, etc. but the moment it goes beyond that rumors fly and the current coach is toast. So the administration always professes support for the current coach until they pull the trigger. It has to be that way. So the Church couldn't develop the finer details until the formal split. You watch, YM for the next 1.5 years is going to be trash, why invest a whole lot of time and energy into it when you know it will change in 1.5 years. I feel bad for the boys for the next year-but it was going to happen at some point. If the Church did in the background develop a really fine program, then the rumors would fly and they would have to make an announcement as soon as the rumors flew. Let's face it, the Church was never going to leave BSA until Monson passed away. He was a silver beaver, highly integrated and respected in scouts. Less than 4 months after he dies, Church splits ways. Easy to see, sure admitting girls was the last straw, but it should have been done in 2013, then in 2015 when they let homosexual leaders in, then in 2016-2017 with admitting of transgender. Anyone could see this coming a mile away.

Now this is interesting: http://theforumnewsgroup.com/2015/07/29/gay-is-ok-in-the-bsa-sort-of/ New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman announced a settlement between his office and The Boy Scouts of America after its National Executive Board voted to overturn its ban on gay leaders and employees. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/four-women-accuse-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse https://nypost.com/2016/07/24/the-boy-scouts-are-thriving-after-ending-ban-on-gay-adults/ "In April 2015, the NY Councils played a key role in the BSA policy change, defying the ban by announcing the hiring of an 18-year-old gay Eagle Scout to work at one of its summer camps. Soon afterward, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman’s office opened an inquiry into the BSA’s membership policies and influence over local councils’ hiring decisions. " Hmm, maybe God has a sense of humor after all. The rat turd who had a key role in the BSA policy change gets taken down in the #METOO movement. Lol . . . Now, I don't like false accusations and I think everyone should get their day in court, but this just couldn't happen to a better guy. Glad God is finally smacking this rathole down a few notches.

Yeap, they never grew up or developed the proper characteristics-they have no one to blame but themselves. Unfortunately, my guess is they won't take responsibility for it upon themselves and that is precisely one of the reasons why they never got married-they refused to be responsible and take ownership of their own life. To each his own-I don't feel sorry for them, I feel sad for them, but not sorry for them.

Well there is more to life than just righteousness, morals and kindness, I don't see why everyone else needs to only be concerned about those things. I have very good kids, they are very righteous, they have great morals and they are very kind (besides the occasional squabble), but no reasonable person would say they are ready for marriage or marriage material. We do a really big disservice to the rising generation when we don't teach them about how the world works and there is a heck of a lot more to it than just being nice and kind (i.e. righteous, moral, kind). That has a significant portion to do with it-but it ain't the whole enchilada. There are other attributes that are extremely desirable in a mate, like responsibility, independence, duty. I really am trying to help you here, if you want to get married then you need to develop additional qualities besides just righteousness, morals and kindness. You can either be in denial that the world doesn't work the way you want it to work, or you can recognize how the world works and change yourself so you can capture a mate-your choice.

2013 when they let in the homosexuals. It went from this: to this: They lost their way and no one stood up for truth and right as they lost their way, so now they will die.

Yeap, now BSA can go and die. The executives "claimed" they did this to "increase" membership. When the facts point out to the exact opposite, Scouts Canada went this route years ago and have been consistently and continually dropping in membership. When you fail to stand for something, you stand for anything and no one really wants to be part of an organization that stands for anything. 20% membership of BSA gone, gone are the financial access to Church funds (which was significant). After the Church leaves, the Baptists will leave and so with the Catholics. I personally believe it was a conspiracy . . .ever since BSA got Bob Gates as CEO-he was/is a one-worlder, globalists, marxists, former CIA director-horrible BSA let him in.

LDS Church and BSA are done! Finally, let that organization rot in its putrid corpse (never thought I would say that-former Eagle Scout).

There are different levels here. 1a) Support for SSM expressed privately; 1b) Support for SSM expressed publicly-Facebook, twitter,ett., 1c) Support for SSM as affiliated with groups like Affirmation. Support for SSM b/c 2a) They don't believe government should be involved in the marriage business, 2b) they believe there is nothing wrong with homosexual unions-Mormons don't believe it but no big deal. 3a) Support for homosexual activity expressed privately, 3b) Support for homosexuality expressed publicly--Facebook, twitter,etc., 3c) Support for homosexuality expressed in with groups like Affirmation. I have perfectly fine with a Stake Clerk who does 1a,2a (i.e. it doesn't leave family or extremely close friends, you know private). Fine people hold all sorts of varying opinions-doesn't make them right, but no one else except the individual knows about it, so fine whatever. Let's recap what this individual said: "Therefore if gay members choose gay marriage that is between them and the Lord. It is not for me to decide what is best for others". When someone expresses this publicly, however it is a different matter. I absolutely agree with the Apostle, no one should be subject to Church discipline for holding an opinion. However, discipline is a far cry from holding a position of leadership. No position within the church is a right, no position in the Church is required for exaltation-holding a leadership position is a privilege and a responsibility-not a right. If a man was called to be Bishop, yet he publicly advocates for abortion or makes it widely known that he favors this-I would not sustain him. Why is it different for leadership? Because when someone is in leadership-they are called to lead and if a leader publicly advocates for abortion to be legal say-they will lead the flock astray. I will not be lead astray-I will not sustain anyone who attempts to lead me astray. Period. It's not bashing, bullying or any other sort of nonsense-it is a very matter-of fact non-emotional, rational course of action. If you are a Stake Clerk-you are in a leadership position. And I'm not questioning your faith, I'm simply stating as a matter of fact-based on your comment you aren't Christian. "If someone murders another human being that is between them and the Lord. It is not for me to decide what is best". That's not a Christian position. You may claim you are Christian, that is fine, you may believe you are Christian, that is fine, but your attitude does not conform Christ's words that there is "one way, one path". It is as simple as that. It's not bashing, it's non-emotionally stating what is a fact. As for actual discipline, I would argue 1c and 3c are ground for revocation of a Temple recommend. And I would also appreciate a direct response if you are referring to me-not a passive-aggressive swipe. Just directly address it. As a sidenote, what I think has really happened that has caused much consternation and the Church really hasn't figured out how to deal with it, is the plethora of ways to publicly state your message these days. 15 years ago if you had a position that was out of step with Church teachings, no one really knew about it. Today you can post a "private" facebook/twitter message and reach 100s or even 10s of thousands of people-that's not private. The Church for each ward used to (maybe still does) have a media relations department. But with social media members in leadership positions can advocate for things 100% out of step of the Church and make the claim they are "only doing it in a private setting" and that's a bunch of horse dukey. They can claim they aren't part of any group that teaches contrary to Church teachings, yet they have a megaphone that reaches 1000s of people. If you are in leadership, best thing to do is keep your mouth shut on social media-or be anonymous so that people do not confuse your opinions with your position.

Carb, You have to look at the message " It is not for me to decide what is best for others or force them into compliance". The bolded is the message. It is a way to look good without having to actually take a stand; "I don't know what's best for others". It's the new non-judgemental, God is just about love, message. In other words, there is no right or wrong, there is no best path, or best way, it's all up to the individual. Which is completely at odds with what being a Christian is all about. Christ says "I am the way, the light, the truth". The whole point of being Christian is that we know there is a best path, we are taught it, we learn of it and we advocate for it. Sorry, but this stake clerk (supposedly b/c well it is the anonymous internet afterall!) is no Christian-b/c no Christian would say, whelp it's not for me to decide what is best for others. Totally false-we do know, it is the only true path-following the Savior and following the laws that He set out through the scriptures and by His servants. With those who go down this path, there is no fence around their thinking, no bounds that will eventually not be broken, b/c you see they don't know what is best.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. And people say, no, no it's not in the Church . . .lol whatever. You are wrong in your opinion and one day you'll find out just how wrong you are. Don't worry, though-I'm wise to these shenanigans-if you were in my stake and I knew about your opinions and they were public. I wouldn't sustain you and I'd raise my hand in opposition to you.

Exactly, it won't stop until everyone accepts that homosexuality is good and just; it has never been about "rights", it's always been about normalization and 100% acceptance-if you don't agree then you are the bad guy. It won't stop until you can't even say homosexuality is bad. Illinios just passed a law requiring public schools to teach about the wonderful, glorious contributions of homosexuals to our life-i.e. it is about normalization of homosexuality. Sure right now they claim it's inborn and something you can't change. But that is already starting to shift. Want to know where this is going? I encourage everyone to read this: For the Strength of Gay Youth (specifically targeted toward LDS youth) https://affirmation.org/teens/for-strength-of-gay-youth/ This is an organization supported by some active members of the Church (and some local leadership). Some wonderful falsehoods taught here: " Again, it is important to understand that we all travel different paths in life. No path is more correct than another and we should never judge a person for the path that he or she travels. " " if you have been involved in sexual activity with the same sex, it is up to you to decide if this is something your Church leader should be made aware of. " "As a missionary, you will be with a same-sex companion twenty-four hours a day. It’s not uncommon to hear gay returned missionaries joke about being attracted to their companions, but in fact that kind of sexual tension can be highly stressful. A mission is a time of intense same-sex bonding " " The biblical writers have never contemplated a form of homosexuality in which loving, monogamous and faithful persons sought to live the implications of the gospel with as much fidelity to it as any heterosexual believer. " " Regardless of your sexual identity, having good friends is important. Choose friends that can support you, no matter what your opinions, views, or choices may be. " " Each person’s sexuality is a personal and private matter. No one has the right to pass judgment on another person’s sexual practices. Nor does anyone have the right to tell you how you should or shouldn’t express yourself sexually (unless of course you are breaking the law or harming another person in the process) " " As you learn about your own sexual self, be sure to keep an open mind. Sexuality is not something that can be explored freely while holding on to preconceived ideas. You don’t have to accept or believe the things you’ll learn in your exploration, but be open to new ideas and be careful about passing judgment on those whose sexual practices you may not agree with " " realize that doing something sexual with another person doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world. Even if you are active in the Church and wish to remain so, life will go on. We are human beings and human beings are sexual beings. God created us this way, so even He understands that humans will be sexual, even at times when they don’t expect to be. " And on and on and on. Hmm . . .I thought they liked to proclaim it was inborn, innate and unchangeable . . .glad we can clear that up now that it's not inborn b/c you need to learn about and explore freely your sexuality. That doesn't sound very inborn and immutable to me . . .guess I'm just not "enlightened" enough to "know better so I can do better" It's quite sad that some members are taken in with this sophistry and deceitfulness.

That's a cop-out and you know it. First off, you can't be a member and choose homosexual marriage-you will or should be excommunicated-i.e. no longer a member.

Ah, I'm just not as "enlightened" as you are. Got it. No, I'd be sad for them-it wouldn't affect me in the least bit, but I would be sad that they have chosen a path that is not approved by God. Look my 9 year old son saw this heading of the poll and he immediately said wow, Dad that is pretty sad-it should be 0. We have never explicitly taught him this-but he gets it. Love of man over love of God, that's what it amounts to.

Yes, the data points it out. Something like 80% of Individuals who support LGBTetc. believe right and wrong is situational, they believe in God, but basically believe that everyone will be saved-i.e. it doesn't really matter what you do. It is a great scourge.

Yeap, it's called the infantilization of society. Statistically speaking, crime today is lower than it has been for 30 something years, statistically speaking there are no more percentage-wise children who are abducted, sexually abused, kidnapped, etc. than happened in the 1950s. What has changed is the perception of danger. There are plenty of dangers that are more real today than when I was growing up, but being kidnapped, abused, etc. is not one of them. Take for example sexual abuse of children. Sexual abuse happens b/c the predators instinctively know the child doesn't have anyone to turn to, and that no one would believe them. It's not that the child doesn't have people they could tell-just that the child doesn't have anyone safe who they could tell. The parent is probably invested in their own emotional drama so much so that the predator instinctively knows that there is no way the child would tell the parent. It's why having a parent in the Bishop's office for interview is absolutely stupid and will actually do nothing to actually solve the problem. Really, if you've got a solid parent-child relationship, the very second the predator tries something squirrelly one of two things is going to happen-either the child immediately tells the parent or the parent is going to have their radar so highly attuned that they will notice immediately something is wrong. Sexual predator grooming isn't so much about the child, it's about the child and the relationships the child has-they are very smart sons of blank-blank. They scan the relationships, pick out a vulnerable kid and then work that kid-the kid is vulnerable in the first place b/c the proper relationships with a trusted adult isn't in place. It's why I don't worry one whit about sexual predators, b/c one I ensure I have a proper teaching to my children (i.e. no one should do xyz to you-if they do come tell me, if they make you feel uncomfortable at all, come tell me)-i.e. I expect you to be responsible enough to come talk to me when there is a problem and here is how you recognize a problem. When you recognize a problem, come talk to me. And two-I have a scan radar up where if any adult does something funny-I remove my kids. Anyone who claims, well I didn't know there was nothing I could do, somebody else should have protected my child, my child was just helpless . . .yeap exactly right and that's why your child was abused and mine is not. Seriously, what kind of a mucked-up message to you send a child when you must be present for an interview with the Bishop. The message you immediately send (which they will remember for their entire life), is authority figures are not to be trusted, the Bishop is not to be trusted, you can't trust other people. Which is a totally false message-you can trust other people, Bishops, authority figures, etc. the key is to understand the signs of an individual who can't be trusted. If you teach a child that the Bishop cannot be trusted-you are opening them up for a world of pain in life. B/c they will be scared little indoor cats their entire life, instead of recognizing the signs of who can be trusted and who can't be trusted. People who say, well who would have know, nope that's just a cop-out, it's an excuse for not being aware, you can detect predators if you get close enough to them, sure from a distant you wouldn't know, but if you get close enough, I guarantee you will be able to detect who is a predator and who is not.

I guarantee you it's not a heated exchange. It's a heated one-sided exchange; but there is absolutely 0 reason for the parent to engage in and feed the petulant child's response. That's part of the problem-for the undisciplined unruly child the parent makes the decision to become embroiled in the child's drama, and become emotionally invested what the child does. It takes two to tango. For the disciplined child, the parent doesn't care about the child's feelings. The parent may be stern, may be firm, may give the child "the look", but done properly the parent is in no way, shape or form emotional invested in the child's drama. I guarantee you (if done right), after this little display of petulance, Vort could easily stand up and give a solid testimony, or laugh with a friend, or teach a class. Just look at his response " Okay, you're allowed to hate me. But you're not allowed to say it.", that is a very calm, reasonable, rational, non-emotional response. It tells the child-look you can get all emotionally invested in this act, but I'm not going to be, period. As a parent, I really don't care about my child's feelings; I care about training them right and teaching them how to properly behave in the world. What I care about is that they figure out how to properly regulate and control their feelings, which is a big difference. And that proper regulation involves not being involved in their drama.

Very good point. It is unfortunate that most families you know do not have children who are properly disciplined. A very sad, sad state of affairs. It's weird, it wasn't this bad when I was growing up, sure some families were better at it than others, but today it is rare to find a family with properly disciplined kids. Too much of the world influencing families-sad situation.

Nope-works for all who have children who are properly disciplined. I don't get power struggles with kids. You are the adult-you have all the trump cards, period. The kid didn't go out and buy the phone, the kid didn't work for it, the kid doesn't pay the bills on it, no Dad did (most likely). So who's phone is it really? Dad's. If I pay for it, I can just as easily stop paying for it too-Be the Authority Figure. This is why most kids are entitled snowflake, must have a cry room for college wussies. No one in life told them the greatest word for a kid. No! Kids need lots of Vitamin N-No. The more you give your child heavy doses of Vitamin N (and actually stick buy it), the easier giving Vitamin N becomes. It's a piece of cake; parents (especially mom's) these days are so "overwhelmed", yeap you're overwhelmed b/c you let the kids rule the roost and don't tell them No and mean it.

Exactly, certainly some children are more obstinate than others, but if you teach them properly they will recognize that they have the freedom to be obstinate and consequently their life will be worse than it could be. If they choose for it to be worse-that's fine, their choice, but I'll make sure they know it ain't a good choice. I don't run a democracy in my household-you want your own rules-cool go live on your own, until then my house, my rules-deal with with.

Same wavelength, man. It unfortunately took me longer than it should have to realize how to actually be an authoritative parent-and that it was the best way. But man, when you get it-it makes life soooo much easier.

If you raise your kids right, it shouldn't be a battle-if it is you've got bigger problems as a parent.

Yeap exactly. That's why I don't do disclaimers anymore, I don't soft-pedal things and my ward knows, when I'm asked to give a talk-I'm bringing the wood. It's very scriptural and doctrinal based, I don't mess around and I tell it like it is. It's unfortunate that more people don't realize how drastically the world has shifted and changed-especially in the last 10 years. There are major, major shifts afoot (inside and outside the Church) and now's not the time to be a wall-flower. There is a war going on and it has become very, very intense. So far (thank God!) the worst wound you will get is that you lose your job. But I guarantee you, that's not as bad as it can potentially get; b/c if people don't start standing up and pushing back against this insanity; you'll eventually stand to lose your life and the life of your family. And you might think I'm using hyperbole-I'm not at all. I just read an article where a former lesbian, recorded a video where she recants her lesbianism, says it was sinful several years ago, then is looking to be hired for a job as a coach last fall. She gets the job, they are working on the onboarding process, closing the deal and the hiring individual abruptly halts everything and says she needs to remove the video otherwise she can't be hired. What worse is people proclaim Hate Speech isn't protected by the First Amendment and therefore b/c she is using Hate Speech it's totally cool to not hire her (it was a state university). And for people who say, yeah but the Supreme Court . . .look the Supreme Court is more a reflection of the culture vs. anything else. They declared slavery legal, come on, it's not really a check. The only real check is the people themselves. And when you have supposed Americans blasting through twitter, facebook, etc. that Hate Speech is not Free Speech . . .lookout buddy. What annoys me the most is that it's not honest (the types of conversations you highlight above), it's just a lie of a conversation, b/c you actually aren't communicating you are saying what you think the other person would like to hear, not really what you think. When you have to put disclaimers that you "aren't judging" every where, what it really means is that you aren't having an honest, open conversation-it's just a shell filled with lies, b/c you are more concerned with saying what the other person will find pleasing rather than actually communicating.

Like I said she has set the world above raising children. What are you going to do, squeeze breastmilk out of your breast? Coo a sobbing child? You aren't female, you never have been, never will be. You don't carry a child for 9 months-she does. This whole junk about "we're pregnant", no, no you aren't your wife is pregnant-you are not.You do realize that a child intimately knows the mother in the womb, right? It hears her voice, is used to it. It's why a mother's voice can actually sooth a child better than a father or stranger. B/c the child has actually heard every single thing the mother has said for almost nine months! And that's just one, just one example. You can't replicate that . . .ever. So what if she has greater intellect than you, you can't be a mother. She and only she is uniquely qualified to provide the best care to your child for the first several years-nobody else. But I guess you think she'll be the greatest scientist that ever lived. That's fine, go chase your golden calves . . .at the expense of your child. I'm telling you now, you will regret it. And your father? Where was he? My guess is totally absent (dead, divorced, etc.), which is why you don't have a clue as to what fatherhood looks like-if you're only example is your mother, of course you think it'll be fine. Dude, you don't have a clue. Danger, will robinson, danger, danger, danger to above. You can't "always ensure" your child is happy. In fact, that is false and from the devil. Your purpose as a parent isn't to ensure your child's happiness. You aren't responsible for it's happiness, only he/she is. Your job as a parent is to a) ensure the survival of the species -i.e. they don't kill themselves when they are young b) teach them the necessary skills so that they can live their life on their own, independent of you. And part of life is learning to deal with the absolute crap that comes with being alive. Learning to deal with the fact, that you will not always be happy, not everything will go right and you can't get everything you want in life. "Ensuring our child is happy" is an absolute sure-fire way to raise a self-centered, narcissistic, needy, piece of trash human being. No, I have learned, you want your children to struggle, you want them to face unhappiness, to face hardship, b/c life ain't all sunshine and roses and you better learn when you are young. The world don't owe you jack, b/c the only way to keep a child happy is to give them everything they want. If your goal is to "ensure they are happy" you will necessarily end up giving them everything they want in life without them learning to do it for themselves. And this is exactly why we have a piece of trash culture right now, people complain about kids these days, no respect, etc. etc. etc. Whelp, it all starts in the home and when mommy thinks her job is more important than raising her child-this is what you get. Pretty simple. This is why we have freaking "cry rooms" on college campuses these days . . .ugh. I'll be glad when we get to the burn-down phase of this modern culture and then people look back and realize, wow that was really, really dumb what we did. Never before in the history of mankind have we actively encouraged mothers to leave their children immediately after they were born . . .wow that was really dumb-let's not do that. Maybe it will take 50 years, hopefully I'm alive when it happens. We have have an utter collapse and then a rebirth! Look man, I get it. You are two highly intelligent steeped in the world people. Your wife (and you) has been brainwashed into believing in order to do good in the world, she must be a STAR!!! She must be in the workforce, or she doesn't have value! But I'm telling you man, you will be doing her a cruel joke to encourage her to be in the workforce after the child is born. Things happen when a woman is pregnant, there is a bond that occurs. Ask any man alive and he will tell you about the "nesting" phase-it's actually quite cool, and amazing to watch it in action. That bond between mother and child is something a father can never have; we have other bonds but not that one. If you encourage her to be in the workforce immediately after birth you are doing her a cruel favor. Sure, she might resist you and she might be convinced she needs to be in the workforce. But I guarantee you, man, it will come back to bite you in the rear-especially b/c you could provide for her and ensure she doesn't need to be in the workforce. If you could have been in the workforce providing for her while she nurses, nurtures, etc. for the child she carries for 9 months and you don't do it. She will hold a grudge about it . . .oh she might not say anything, it might be totally cool-, now, but one day, man, I promise you one day, she will make a comment and you will sit and think to yourself . . .boy did I screw up there.

"You are making excuses for staying with mommy and daddy. Time to shed the old you and leave that life behind. Show the world that you can make it." Amen brother! It's actually quite sad what has occurred in today's society. Men have so much to offer the world, so much talent, potential. Men built the entirety of the physical structures we have around us. There is so, so much that they can offer and the world needs strong, confident men! And yet they have been shoved aside and infantilized to where a 31 year-old male is scared to step out into the big wide world. What a blooming tragedy. All the potential, all the things he could do and be, lives he could impact but he's too scared to make it one his own . . .so, so sad.

Hopefully then, when the next one hits, it will be delayed also and you'll have time to see it coming.