mgridle

Yes, yes they do. I stand by what I said given the information I had at the time. Given how the story at that point was relayed, the Branch President (or Bishop, I can't remember b/c it's been changed around), was being an idiot. To set not offending new converts/investigators above proper decorum in a church meeting so individuals can actually hear is idiotic and is being an idiot. Because kids unproperly disciplined will cause a ruckus and will disrupt the meeting. Now the story has changed, that's fine. No big deal. I have no opinion on the matter now b/c the story has changed I'm no sure what the situation really is (is it Bishop or is it BP, is it US or foreign) I don't really care.

I should say all more too common. I would say what has become more all to common is the lack of willingness to stand for something for fear of being offensive. When was the last time in sacrament you heard a talk about women being stay at home moms? Nope, too offensive. What about disciplining children effectively? Nope, too offensive. What about appropriate sexual mores (outside of generic chastity)? Nope, too offensive. What about how to really effectively keep a marriage together and how divorce is bad? Nope, too offensive. What about how to deal with spiritual issues like depression, anxiety, etc.? Nope, too offensive and it doesn't belong in Church it belongs somewhere else. The Gospel preached at church in many ways has become very bland b/c to actually tackle the hard, important topics in today's society requires risking offending people and we can't have that now. So the talks either go into very bland, very generic talks backed by scripture or talks that aren't based in the Gospel.

Now you are just parsing words, if that is the message he is convoying then yes he IS BEING an idiot for conveying that message. People convey messages, if the message is idiotic then the person who conveys that message is conveying an idiotic message and is making themselves out to be an idiot. Like I said again, this is pointless . . .trying to disengage . . . .

I agree. Like I said, I really don't like the hero worship in the Church; I'm not for criticizing leaders, but it is okay to not agree with and to even think some of the things they do are dumb.

You see it as boorish, that's fine. I see it as calling a spade a spade. If a BP is telling parents, don't worry about your kids making noises in sacrament, just pay attention to the message, I say that it idiotic to convey that message. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but I think it is idiotic to do. That's not "boorish" behavior. But whatever, this is pointless. Moving on.

I am respecting of others beliefs, but sustaining doesn't mean someone is perfect (I really hate that in the modern Church, so and so was called as a Bishop, so they are perfect human beings who never make mistakes and therefore are always exempt from any third-party criticism). I'd suggest you not take sides and stay out of a two party conversation, if you want to have a respectable conversation. I can have great respect for MY Bishop and still think he can do things wrong, not be correct, even be an idiot on certain issues-that's the price you pay for leadership-someone ain't gonna like your leadership. I have learned how to disagree with someone's decisions (even vehemently in life) yet still respect them.

Yes, thank you for calling me on it. 😋 .. . it's just so hard . . . ugh oh well.

Why are you personalizing the BP as an extension of you? He is random to me.

I daresay this is becoming all too common in Church. When I give talks I go heavy scriptures, generally at least 5-10 scriptures with several GC quotes. We all have our own philosophies, but at least if I've got that much back-up, I'm much less likely to deviate from God's word.

And you didn't explain. I'd love to listen if you would explain. You didn't mention windows until after my first response. First you said Bishop, then you corrected to BP, etc. That's fine, but please don't blame me for not listening when you didn't explain. Like I said for the 3rd time (I will now disengage), I have no desire to get into an argument with you.

?? Okay No it is exactly why. Constitution and family values go hand in hand. As the family values structure has fallen, so has respect for the Constitution. The Constitution can only work for a virtuous people. Yeah other cultures and people want the Constitution, but they don't want the values that it took to make it happen, hence they don't have a Constitution and hence why we are losing ours. Yes Asians dominate in education b/c in general they are naturally genetically predisposed to have higher IQs. It's that easy. Like I said, I've upset you; I'd be more than willing to carry on a conversation, but not at the expense of civility.

I've upset you. Okay, I'm bowing out. Not a fight worth fighting.

Thought you said Bishop, my fault. Maybe the BP should have a separate room where children can go during sacrament. Point being it's not appropriate to have kids running up and down in and out during sacrament. If the objective is to keep adults focused on the talk-that alone will distract adults-hard to hear the talk with a bunch of kids making noise.

There is a reason why American culture came to be so dominate. It was in the strength of how the youth was taught. Respect your elders, have manners and decorum, personal responsibility, take care of your own problems, etc.

Okay, you are choosing to take offense at it. That is your choice take offense-you can certainly do so if you wish. I don't know him. He could be a great guy, but in this instance he is being an idiot. Idiot means "of low intelligence", he is being of extreme low intelligence to claim that children will simply observe their parents sitting quietly listening and therefore they will do the same when they are grown when no individual or adult has actually taught them how to sit still and listen through discipline. He is being of low intelligence when he claims that it is more important to not offend new converts and investigators by allowing their kids to rule the roost and run around the chapel like hooligans. He is being of low intelligence to in effect set the presumed needs and wants of new converts and investigators (i.e. they will be "offended and will NEVER come back" if we tell them their kids can't act like monsters in church) above the needs of the ward. Which he clearly did. He clearly had an item that has been brought up before him as a concern from ward members (children behaving like monsters), and he set the presumed needs of a few above the needs of the ward. He may still be a great guy, man called of God, etc. but in this instance he is an idiot. That's okay, Bishops are allowed to be imperfect and to be idiots from time to time-it happens.

And we wonder why people don't want to have kids anymore. I really dislike the accommodating stance for anyone and everything these days. Sorry your Bishop is an idiot, "He even said that the kids may be running up and down the aisle at sacrament meeting but they are learning through our example, as they see their parents listening attentively to the talks they will remember this and when they get older they'll want to sit and listen attentively too like their parents do." No they don't. Yes, kids learn by our example about how we behave ourselves and how we expect them to behave also. No, what happens if parents are listening attentively and children are running up and down and being hooligans is that children learn they are "special". One rule for everyone else and a different rule for me. They will grow up thinking, well my parents listened attentively, but I don't have to because I'm special. I swear . . .raising the next generation has gone down the tubes-especially when leaders don't lead, they allow themselves to be lead. So inconvenience the entire ward, make everyone in the ward suffer and even condone it! b/c he is afraid of "offending" a new convert or investigator. Except that if I'm a new investigator and I see a bunch of kids running like wildmen up and down the isles in and out of church-honestly I don't want to be a part of that organization-why b/c they don't have their crap together-it is an "anything goes" "let's just be nice and kind and not offend". God's House is a house of order, not of Chaos and condoning little children running up and down in and out just promotes Chaos. You can easily as a leader stand up and say, we understand and empathize with parents who are new, who have young children, or who have misbehaving children. We ask out of consideration for others when you have a misbehaving child to please reverently take that child out of the sacrament area to a location where they can be disciplined to allow the rest of the congregation the opportunity to clearly understand the talk. Simple, easy, clear, no offense. I swear modern culture . . .

Amen! I do the same with my daughters. And actually having kids is really NOT that expensive, it's really quite cheap with the added benefit that you get free labor from ages 3-18. It's beautiful!! Really, you have to be nuts not to see the benefits . . .you mean for about 15 years for one child I get access to free labor . . .awesome!!! You get free labor and you get to raise an adult at the same time, what could be better! What can be better than telling the kid-Go mow the yard! beautiful. Want a clean house? hey kid here is a dustpan-go make yourself useful! When they are little, they are still pretty cheap, 50-100 bucks a month extra in diapers/food. When they get older you just buy in bulk and make big meals (big meals are more economical too-leftovers are great!). They destroy (or will destroy) just about anything they touch when young, so buy used clothes off craiglist or a couple that is done with kids. As for toys, too many toys and they get overwhelmed and become ungrateful little snots. We do a maximum of 3 toys for Christmas and one toy for birthday-the rest . . .shoot they can figure out how to entertain themselves, take a cardboard box and make a fort-they have an imagination-make them use it. With small kids-never buy new-they just don't need it, notice it, or care. And they will probably wreck it anyways.

Yeah that is a battle not worth fighting. What a lot of people don't understand in marriage, is that they think they always need to make joint decisions. Nope, total hogwash. You may need to make joint decisions, but what works really well is giving each person an area of responsibility that they have total control over. Your wife will change the majority of diapers, so she gets authority to make the decision what kind she wants, pretty simple. Don't be egalitarian in your marriage-it doesn't work. Fulfill the roles you were meant to have, you as husband first father second, her as wife first and mother second. You do that and it works out, you don't and pain is coming. The "patriachy" or whatever feminists want to call it, is just the natural God-ordained order of things, anything else just leads to chaos, pain and suffering.

Except now that tons of kids are raised by the TV or in day-care, and lack of classes like home economics in HS, homemaking being looked down upon, etc, you have a generation of women who absolutely have 0 clue as to how to actually raise another human being into adulthood. It is actually quite sad.

I disagree to an extent. The first thing is what is the purpose of a Church talk. Is it to be entertaining? Is it to teach doctrine? Is it to uplift? I don't go to Church to be entertained; so to me a typical non-boring talk might be totally inappropriate and I'd get frustrated at listening to some clown in Sacrament (even if it was "entertaining").

Why are you abrogating personal responsibility in this whole mess? Is it the Church's responsibility to provide good talks? Absolutely not. It is the individual who is giving the talk who has the responsibility of giving a good talk; the problem is that many people see a talk as something they are just required to do, but not necessarily a responsibility. The key to a good talk is preparation, the rest is just mechanical-but it all boils down to preparation. And it takes a good bit of time to actually prepare a good talk. Last 15 min-20min. talk I gave required about 6 hours of preparation, sure it is actually really easy to give a 15 min "talk", that amounts to extemporaneous speaking, I can do that in a couple of hours, maybe an hour. But to give a well-prepared, well-thought out, scriptural based talk takes time. The Church does provide a wonderful template for talks, it's called General Conference, it's called Stake Conference, etc. Everybody loves GC talks, but do individual members actually take the time to make their talks GC like?? Coaching will do nothing if the individual members don't take the personal responsibility to make their talks well prepared.

Nerd has nothing to do with it. You already know what the problem is: so get off your tush and do something about it. Yes, your "big fear" is not a fear-it is truth that you are unwilling to admit to yourself, so instead of confronting it and dealing with it you couch it in emotional terms of "fear". Scriptures tell us that we are to leave our mother and father and become one with our spouse. What exactly have you done to demonstrate to a prospective wife that you are not only willing, but able and ready to become one with your spouse. Like it's just going to magically happen; you meet the woman of your dreams and poof all the sudden you stop living in your parents house? Come on that's ludicrous. Right now the only type of woman who will marry you is one who sees you as someone who she can easily control and manipulate. You don't want to move until you find something that requires you to move? Come on man, that's not someone who is in control of their own life-that is someone who wants, needs, expects others to control them. Now if you want to be controlled by a manipulative, control freak the rest of your life continue on your current path and if you are lucky you might just find one. Otherwise recognize the only one who really requires things of yourself is you- i.e. you are the one who is in control (only of yourself mind you, but you are in control). They aren't loving you, they are enabling you. My guess is they were highly involved in your decisions and/or process to become an Eagle Scout and RM-they probably filled out paperwork for you, pushed you along, etc, they probably saw those accomplishments as metrics on whether they were "good parents" and thus they did everything they could to get you to earn those things (at your expense by-the-way). They were selfish (even if they didn't understand it) and set their own emotional needs (i.e. look at my son, what a great son he is and look at us aren't we great parents!) above your own (by forcing you to take charge of and be responsible for your own life). I'm glad you said self-confidence vs. self-esteem they are two vastly different things with vastly different consequences and vastly different ways of gaining. Self-esteem is thinking highly of oneself (look at me, look at how great I am!), most people who have high self-esteem are massive jerks that only think of themselves. Self-confidence is the ability to be independent and responsible for your own life and your own actions. Self-esteem comes about by having others tell you how great you are. Self-confidence comes about by you yourself doing things to improve you life, yourself, your situation. Self-esteem requires that people tell you how great you are when you royally screw-up. Self-confidence requires that you honestly admit how bad you royally screwed-up, but that screwing up and failures is just a part of life and it's a way of learning how to be better and a way to grow and gain more experience and knowledge. Unless there is a noble reason for living with your parents (i.e. they have massive health problems, taking care of them, etc.), you will NEVER gain what you are looking for until you take ownership of your own life, empower yourself, move out and be responsible for your own life. When you are responsible for your own life-then you will find the women who you want to date will become available to you. If you don't, you will marry someone who will do to you what your parents are doing to you, enabling you and controlling you. Self-confidence can only come about by doing things and accomplishing things yourself. There is no other path to self-confidence, it requires actually setting goals of things you want in life and then by doing things by yourself.

Weird is something that is abnormal, uncommon, or unusual. If you put up a poll on how many men would enjoy going shopping, going to the salon, being "in touch with their feminine side", the results would be vastly against you. I.e. by definition it is weird, I didn't say bad, I just said weird. That's fine you've never seen the appeal in being macho. However, for men who are macho your behavior is giving off very, very bad signals-especially when it comes to other men's wives. Again you don't have to like it, but you do need to recognize it.

Agreed, however I can definitely sympathize if one is a non-homosexual effeminate male-it is going to be hard to find male friends who are not homosexual with whom to bond. It's entirely possible, but it is going to be challenging. Therefore you will go with what is comfortable, i.e. developing relationships with women.

Well this has taken a turn for the interesting. Generally speaking when a man does things like go to the hair salon, getting nails done, etc. i.e. doing customarily womanly things that generally indicates the dude is not a straight shooter so to speak. I'd say on the bell curve of statistics sure there are some men who enjoy that stuff who are straight shooters, but there are probably statistically speaking a lot more men who are homosexual who enjoy that stuff then men are aren't who enjoy that stuff. You are getting married to a woman, so I assume you are simply are the small, small percentage of men who aren't homosexual who enjoy that stuff-fine dude whatever. Being that as it is, you need to recognize that most men do not associate that with normal behavior. It's okay to be weird as long as you understand the norms around you. Any man who is married who's wife goes with another man to the salon, to get her hair done, nails done etc. the married man is going to think one of two things, either a) this dude is trying to move in on my wife or b) this dude is homosexual. You don't have to like what the married man thinks, you don't even have to agree with what the married man thinks, but you do need to recognize what he will think. If you like to do that stuff, great fine, wait till your married and go with your wife. Part of being married is recognition that when you get married life changes and some behaviors that were perfectly acceptable prior to marriage are now no longer acceptable. Otherwise it's not a marriage-just two people living together.