Behemoth

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  1. Like
    Behemoth reacted to zil in Mad at Modesty   
    No, really, it is.
  2. Like
    Behemoth reacted to SpiritDragon in Mad at Modesty   
    I should add that I believe because he said so it is a commandment, or counsel, but that we do it to show love for Him. 
    I'm partial to this line of reasoning because any number of other reasons that haven't been directly revealed can change, or at least appear to do so. For instance, If I only lived the word of wisdom for health benefits I might easily be swayed by a scientific study that suggests that drinking wine is good for my heart or drinking coffee will improve my athletic performance. If, on the other hand, I simply do so to show my love for the saviour, then I've got a solid foundation of a reason. Of course it doesn't hurt to have multiple other reasons, just as long as they are not what one's faith is based on.
  3. Like
    Behemoth reacted to SpiritDragon in Mad at Modesty   
    I think there is a lot of food for thought here.
    On the topic of why we keep commandments:
    My first impression when confronted with the idea of "why" we have any commandment is first and foremost because God has said so. Other "reasons" beyond that are not likely, in my opinion at the moment, any more or less important than others. Should we dress modestly because it shows respect to god, ourselves and our fellow-humans? Sure. Should we dress modestly because it can help protect us from the elements? Sure. Should we dress modestly because it is more professional? Seems like a good reason to me.
    Take the Word of Wisdom as an example: Should we follow the word of wisdom to be healthy? It would seem so. Should we follow the Word of Wisdom to avoid making fools of ourselves in a drunken state? Sounds reasonable. Should we keep the Word of Wisdom because our spouse (insert whomever you like) is struggling to do so and when we don't it creates temptation... Hey now, that's not why! It seems as good a reason as any, really. 
    Ultimately, according to my understanding, God gives commandments that he knows will bring us happiness in the long run. I'm sure we can ask almost any forum member about one of their most challenging sins to overcome and how they wish they'd never been caught up in it in the first place, since wickedness never was happiness.
    On the topic of being our brother's keeper:
    Let me indulge in a little parable of sorts - I have a sweet tooth and absolutely love to eat XYZ treat. My best friend also has a sweet tooth and finds XYZ treat nearly irresistible. I'm blessed not to struggle with weight, but my friend is several pounds overweight and would very much like to reduce (maybe for health reasons, maybe for self-esteem, maybe vanity, doesn't matter). While trying to reduce with the approach of moderation in all things, my friend discovered that XYZ treat sets him/her off on a feeding frenzy, just a look at this treat and his/her best intentions are utterly wasted and junk food is going down the hatch. Knowing that my friend has this struggle I choose not to eat XYZ treat in his/her presence. This doesn't mean i can never do so, it just means that I have learned that in regard to this friend it isn't a helpful or nice thing to do. Sure I could be selfish and eat it in front of my friend, and tell him/her that s/he really needs to just get over it, it's not my problem, but that seems terribly un-Christlike. So I enjoy my XYZ treats at appropriate times when it's not causing my friend strife.
    I don't really think the comparison needs to be spelled out just now, so I'll leave it at this.
    On the topic of where do we draw the line:
    This one for me seems really reasonable, we already have counsel on what is acceptable dress. Simply follow the counsel. If you're dressed as modestly as the church guidelines dictate and someone is still having trouble keeping their thoughts in check, you can at least be confident that you have done your part not to exacerbate the problem.
     
  4. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Jojo Bags in Mad at Modesty   
    "... Modesty is the foundation stone of chastity."  Ensign, April 2007.
    I guess it must be pretty important after all.
  5. Like
    Behemoth reacted to NeuroTypical in Mad at Modesty   
    It's your responsibility as a PERSON to dress appropriately.  This isn't a woman/man thing (although there are absolutely gender aspects to it).
    It's just as inappropriate for a woman to walk around in skimpy attire, as it is for a man to do so.  Behold:

  6. Like
    Behemoth reacted to zil in After we are judged and sent to whatever we deserve, then what?   
    @BJ64 posted a quote from the King Follett sermon in another thread.  In that sermon is this quote:
    When we combine that with Moses 1:39:
    That, IMO, is the answer to your question.  All who have inherited any degree of glory will work with God "to save the world of spirits" - to help them progress as we did through pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal existence.  Certainly there will be different details depending on the glory you inherit, but the work [ETA: the purpose or goal of the work] itself will be the same.
  7. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Fether in The tokens already appear   
    Putting aside temple jargon, tokens tend to be physical manifestations of truth. “As children of Zion, good tidings to us”. There are plenty of tokens, or physical manifestations, of this truth.
  8. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Luke in Does anyone have an answer to this haunting question?!   
    I thank the two of you that I actually responded to my question.  I don't see any further benefit to anyone to continue this conversation thanks for everyone's participation.
  9. Like
    Behemoth reacted to SpiritDragon in Are we not doing modesty anymore?   
    I thought you were making an allusion to this:
     
  10. Haha
    Behemoth reacted to Fether in The Mesoamerica Model's Setting For The Book of Mormon, Its One Major Flaw   
    The Mulekites found coriantumr ALIVE (Omni 1:21), So there may have been some overlap. This was 277-470 years after Nephi and his family left Jerusalem.
    Dude, I don’t know x) I apologize for any poohing I have, I try to keep that to the bathroom. My thoughts and ideas are coming from probably only a grand total of 30 minutes of watching videos and thinking about the topic.
  11. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Traveler in The Focus   
    The problem with a really good post in a forum like this is that there is not much that can be added - pro or con - that will not in some way distract from the initial message.  Often if one wants to get a lot of comments going - you need to say something a little more on the stupid side.  For sure that will generate lots of interest.
     
    The Traveler
  12. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Luke in Does anyone have an answer to this haunting question?!   
    Let’s start with the assumption that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, Joseph Smith Jr was a true prophet, the BOM is true, etc (and I personally believe these things to be true):  Even assuming this, there is one thing, one terrorizing possibility that I don’t see that even the restored gospel has a good answer for.  What if there is a truth or a fundamental reality which will ruin even the joy of exaltation?  And please, don’t tune out yet….my concern is REAL and let me explain with one possible scenario that concerns me:
    Imagine you are the parent of a family with 10 kids.  The parents do the best they can but only 1 of those kids really does his best to live an excellent life and achieve his potential.  3 or 4 are of the most evil, wicked rebellious sort and commit crimes so heinous that all of them are condemned to a sentence worse than death:  life in an awful prison where they are tortured every day and only kept alive so that they can continue to be tortured.  The other 5 or 6 children are not real bad or real good, but disappointingly mediocre.  
    When you as a mother or father reflect on your children….are you going to feel good or feel bad?
    If it was me, I would feel distraught ALL the time….especially to think of the 3 or 4 being tortured.
    This scenario seems reflective of our Heavenly Parents situation.  How do they not feel a constant, inescapable depression (or at least, how could they ever feel a FULNESS of joy) to know that a third of their children are in a constant state of torment worse than the worse hell that even Dante could fathom?  Or, is there a way, once a child of God is irreversibly lost as a child of perdition for the parent to cut those heart strings….I mean, what good does it do to love them at that point?! 
    Anyway, this is one of many real possible scenarios of why heaven and even exaltation may not be the happiness we imagine.  
    Some others include:
    - Perhaps God does lie.  I know the scripture tell us that He doesn’t.  But God inspired the scriptures…I don’t quite see how we can independently know if God is telling the truth.  Not only that, D&C 19 actually seems to imply that God does intentionally deceive us, though perhaps His intentions are benevolent.  The following thought is extremely repulsive to me because I have had many experiences where I felt the Spirit and I cherish those experiences....but what if The Spirit is lying to us?  How could we ever know?
    - What if heaven is boring?  The typical Christian conception of Heaven sounds as boring as…well, Hell (pardon my literalism).  But perhaps after so many billions of years, even exaltation brings an unfathomable boredom.  Exaltation and the man-god doctrine of eternal increase address this concern much better than any other religion I’ve studied….but I’m not certain they completely eliminate the possibility of eternal boredom.
    - What if God is actually evil and delights in tormenting us?  Now, I think this scenario is unlikely, but the one thought that gives me pause is the following:  it would seem that the most awful torment includes false hope…to raise someone up to believe something wonderful and beautiful and then drop them…the higher you lift them up, the farther they can fall.  There is a Twilight Zone (or was it Alfred Hitchcock episode?) that captures this:  This guy is betrayed by his girlfriend and ends up spending years in prison.  When he finally gets out she is terrified he is going to get vengeance, but instead he shows up and pretends to forgive her and even gives her money to set up a business, etc.  And just when things are going wonderful for her, he shows up and tells her it was a set up so that he could make her feel the way she had made him feel before her betrayal….and then he kills her.
    But I really haven’t explain my concern fully.  I am going to attempt another way of saying this, but this is so hard for me to put in words…here goes:  It seems clear that there are laws that that even God cannot break….a reality that even God cannot change.  That said, there doesn’t seem to me that there is any reason to assume that reality and reality’s “superstructure” has to be benevolent toward humanity.  While I believe the restored gospel has the best argument and evidence for a benevolent God, I don’t think we can necessarily assume that reality is benevolent towards humans.  It would seem to me that God must operate in the structure of a reality that predates hims (by predate I don’t necessarily mean chronology but prior in order).  What I am trying to say is that we know from the scriptures that there are rules that even God cannot break…how did those rules get there?….and in a sense then God is not totally omnipotent.  He is bound by these rules.  So, what if there is a law or a fundamental fact of reality that results in an inescapable misery and doom for all.  And perhaps we are here in mortality for a period…and the veil’s purpose is actually to temporarily screen out this terrible fact from our consciousness….if only temporarily.  Perhaps God plugged us into this matrix called mortality to temporarily hide us from a hellish truth.  But this bubble of parental protection can not protect us indefinitely from this chilling reality.
    One of the things that makes me think there is something going on that God is not telling us is the following:  If we lived in an eternal premortal state before coming to earth and we will live for all eternity after, what i the probability that we would currently live in mortality?  Well, any number divided by infinity is zero...how improbable that we currently find ourselves in mortality!....so, is there something else going on here that God isn't telling us about?  Is it possible we are caught in an infinite loop?  In some ways, the non-LDS doctrine of reincarnation seems to address this problem better.
    It is not my intention to be sacrilegious.  But I believe in freedom of thought…and it does seem to me there are some scary possibilities out there.
    I understand if what I said above doesn’t make sense…I really have a hard time explaining my concern.
    In the end, though, my concerns don’t result in any change in my behavior or faith…because I have no control of the structure of reality.  I will continue to live my life with the assumption that all the things the church teaches are true and that doom is escapable by obeying God and relying on the merits of our Savior.  I suppose the truth of all things will come out after mortal death.
    But I am curious:  Does anyone have an answer for my dilemma?  If there is a flaw in my thinking or something I’m missing, please point it out.  This has been haunting me for more than a decade.
  13. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Just_A_Guy in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    To be fair, @BJ64, I believe you initially said “scripture” and later narrowed your definition to “canonized scripture”.  
    There are a number of divine proscriptions that don’t appear in the canon.  The elucidation of “hot drinks” as being tea and coffee is extra-canonical; as is our prohibition on beer (the text of D&C 89 actually permits “mild drinks” made from barley).  
    In the loosest sense, “sin” is any act that violates an expression of God’s will for us; and there is no requirement that that will be expressed in canon, in scripture, or even through official Church channels.  The issue isn’t whether God jumped through the proper legislative hoops; its whether or not we know darned well that recreational masturbation is an unholy/impure practice.
    And, legalistic gamesmanship and disingenuous know-nothingism aside; we do know that. It’s not on par with the gravity of porn use or fornication, to be sure; but nor is it divinely approved.
    From one standpoint, the mental gymnastics and self-justification we go through to convince ourselves otherwise may perhaps be more spiritually dangerous than the act of masturbation itself is.
  14. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Grunt in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    Just because you break the Law of Chastity doesn't mean everyone does.  I certainly don't.
  15. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Grunt in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here.  Everyone faces temptations.  I don't know a single natural man who doesn't.  Some temptations are easier to control than others.  

    When I speak of the Law of Chastity, and I may be way off on this, I speak of the physical acts.  Even though in Matthew we learn that lustful thoughts lead to transgressions of the heart, most of what is taught refers to the physical transgressions.  I imagine we all succumb to inappropriate thoughts at times and struggle with resisting vanity.  However, we are specifically warned in teachings about the physical sins in the Law of Chastity.  THOSE are conscious decisions when they are broken.
  16. Like
    Behemoth reacted to Anonymous1101 in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    To all of you who have suggested that I stop I want to rephrase what I said, what I should have said is this, i used to frequently masturbate and look at pornography, since then I have talked with my bishop and talked with therapists about it at this point in my recovery I don't relapse very often however they do happen because it is a very strong addiction and the last time I did it was about three months ago however I was wondering if it broke the law of chastity, also thank you all for your concern and answers.
  17. Like
    Behemoth reacted to chasingthewind in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    Bad news: Yes, it does.  
    Good news: As a former porn-addict, I can testify that breaking a porn-addiction is a wonderful opportunity to experience the enabling power of Christ!  By submitting myself to Christ, I made progress resisting pornography I didn't think was even possible!  My testimony of the enabling power of the Atonement is now unshakable!  And Christ will do the same for you!  Remember, God never gives us a commandment - such as the LoC - without first providing a way for us to fulfill it!
    Good luck on your journey, brother!  Check out reddit.com/r/nofapchristians/ if you need a online support group.
  18. Like
    Behemoth reacted to JohnsonJones in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    ALL sin is serious, is there a reason one would choose to make this one more serious than...say...assault and battery?  or murder?  Or grand theft?  Or maybe not keeping the Sabbath day holy?  Or taking the Lord's name in Vain? 
    Sin is serious, I agree.  Focusing on one sin and making it the bogeyman above all others, especially if it is such a minor sin comparatively to many others, in my opinon, is not helpful or encouraging to someone to try to repent of the sin.  Making mountains out of molehills only scares someone from walking over a molehill easily because they think it is a mountain instead.
  19. Like
    Behemoth reacted to JohnsonJones in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    All sin is serious, but sometimes we like to focus on minor sins like this to the point that people forget that there are a lot more serious sins out there that are far more damaging to the individual or others. While I agree the individual involved needs to take action, there is no need to frighten them needlessly.  What will happen if the Bishop is told, most likely (I can't guarantee anything TBH) is something VERY minor, and in many instances I find it is FAR less (if anything) than what the individual THINKS will happen or occur.
    If I told someone that was traveling 5 miles over the speed limit that they were breaking the law and going to go to jail for the rest of their lives if they ever were caught and to stop it...most would think I was going a little overboard. 
    On the otherhand, if I said to someone breaking the law by committing grand theft and murdering the store owner that this could lead to life in prison and possibly execution in some states..
    The two aren't really comparable.  Both are breaking the law, but one has a much heavier punishment affixed.  The focus for many police will be speeding, and the speeding tickets.  The first is FAR more prevalent and applicable to more people when discussed.  If more people wear seatbelts and follow speed limits, the number of deaths would probably go down much farther if the first is enforced, than telling people about the second one.  The second is still enforced by the police, but with the amount of time and tickets, the first probably takes more time in discussion and otherwise.
    The same would apply in the discussion.  The sin discussed in this thread is perhaps the most prevalent in the church from my perspective currently.  It is one that probably affects every member in some way, either because a family member is committing the sin, or a relative is involved with the sin, if not the individual themselves.  This should mean that the leaders of the church address such a prevalent sin at almost every conference or general meeting in many instances.  It is as bad, if not worse, than any plague.  The numbers of members involved with the sin, from my perspective, is staggering.  Anyone involved with it, is absolutely not alone in their suffering. 
    However, it is in no way comparable to how hefty the punishments (at least in most cases, there are exceptions, as I've stated previously) are for other sins of a more damaging form for both the individual and others.
    The very first thing I would want someone to understand is that they are not alone.  That it is very easy to repent of, if they WANT to repent.  And that they should not despair.  There are MANY I've met that have given up all hope of ever overcoming this sin when they meet with me.  They have already condemned themselves in their minds...there is no reason for us to reinforce such things.  The message I would bring is that of repentance and that they can repent, and in many instances will be FAR EASIER than what they've made it out to be in their minds. (though that does not mean it will necessarily be EASY...just easier than what they may think...and it may take a long time to over come as well.  But it is possible, and with faith in the Lord, their burden maybe made light).
  20. Thanks
    Behemoth reacted to Jersey Boy in Does anyone have an answer to this haunting question?!   
    If you had truly felt the indwelling influence of the  Spirit of God in sufficient measure, you wouldn’t be racked with such pervasive doubt. It appears you have experienced inklings of the Spirit. 
    The answers you have been searching for are found in 2 Nephi 2. It appears you either haven’t taken the time reread it, or if you have reread it you haven’t comprehend Lehi’s inspired words. For your convenience, I will post Lehi’s answers to your questions here:
    10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—
    11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
    12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
    13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)
    The possibilty for boredom in the eternal world that you fear does actually exist. But the potential for boredom in the eternal world only exists because the polar opposite of boredom also exists in the eternities. In the eternal world, there is a state of mind that exists in which one chooses to be aloof, disinterested and disengage from all that life has to offer. Conversely, in the eternal world there also forever exists a state of mind one can choose in which he will find endless possibilities for anxious engagement in activities of intense intellectual, emotional and physical enjoyment. If it were not so, boredom would not exist. 
    Lehi testifies to us that God promises the faithful they will obtain “a state of happiness that has no end,” but God can only make that promise because there also exists a diametric opposite to the state of happiness that has no end, even a state of endless unhappiness that will continue unless one chooses to exercise faith in Christ and repent. So if in the eternities you end up possessing a state of mind that’s cynical, doubtful and bored it will be because you chose to be that way, in spite of the fact that you could have chosen to be otherwise.
    Those who choose to be cynical, bored and disengaged in the eternal world will likely end up that way because the natural man takes a grim satisfaction in being a naysayer. I suppose that in the eternities there will be those who, even there, will continue to postulate that God could very well turn out to be a liar and all those who are then presently happy will finally end up being bored out of their minds, even if it takes a trillion eternities to arrive at that place. And God will allow them to engage in their endless naysaying because Christ’s infinite and eternal atonement has given them the freedom to choose to be eternally happy or miserable, for the states of happiness and misery will forever be eternal realities. Ss there is no need to ever be bored in the eternal world because a state of mind that chooses to be unbored will always exist in eternal opposition to the state of mind in which one chooses to be bored and disengaged from the active pursuit of an interesting and meaningful existence.
     
  21. Like
    Behemoth reacted to zil in Does anyone have an answer to this haunting question?!   
    Probably because they know that some people have problems with use of the word "know".  I do the same (I say, "I testify..." or I just make a flat out statement) and for that reason - Group A get upset when Group B claim to have knowledge that Group A don't believe Group B can actually have.
    One person being a dork is not evidence that all people who claim knowledge are being dorks.  One person mindlessly imitating does not prove that all people who claim knowledge are mindlessly imitating.
    So if you understand that there are multiple correct uses of the English word "know", why do you find fault with those who use it, as if you knew that they were using it incorrectly?
    First, why do you avoid the more important point, which is acknowledging that you do not have direct access into another human's brain and therefore cannot know what's in there, and therefore ought not to find fault with others' ways of expressing what's in there?  So far, rather than accept that there are things beyond your knowledge, and that other people might have experiences you don't understand, you've doubled-down on the idea that yours is the only valid understanding of the word "know", and that no one else has the right to any other, nor to have knowledge that you yourself don't have.  Is it really that hard to simply acknowledge that your experience is different from other people's experiences (and that their experiences vary widely)?
    As to your question, yes, I am 100% absolutely certain that the Church is true.  But unless you can be sufficiently humble to recognize that yours is not the only possible experience in the mortal realms, I think I'm done with this topic - you've had witness and opportunity enough.  More would be worse than pointless.  Please note, I fully understand your point about the type of knowledge or this usage of the word "know".  I comprehend the logic which says that this particular type of "know" cannot happen short of omniscience.  I find no flaw in that particular logic within its scope.  I also see nothing at all wrong with your questions, wondering, or even doubts.  My sole problem is that you deny that others might have experienced a reality beyond your own - not just the possibility of it, but their witness of it.  Having denied that, there's nothing left to discuss in that particular realm.
  22. Like
    Behemoth reacted to BJ64 in I Cant Wrap My Head Around Men Becoming Gods   
    I guess I have a hard  time thinking like a woman as far as clothing is concerned. I can’t predict how women feel in various clothIng. 
    As far as formal wear is concerned, there are no formal events ever in my part of the country. I haven’t worn a tuxedo since my wedding thirty years ago. 
    I’m not sure what you mean by being attracted to the spiritual. Basically I don’t allow myself to be attracted to women other than my wife. 
    As far as the speedo is concerned I really think it’s to even worry about whether or not such a thing is modest or not. It could be said that no swimwear is modest on either men or women. However swimming is a sport and activity that has its own “uniform” so to speak. A speedo is appropriate for swimming just as a football uniform is appropriate for football.   Either would be inappropriate at the mall. 
     
  23. Like
    Behemoth reacted to unixknight in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    As a comment on the effects of porn on the adolescent mind...
    I recently learned of a study where young men are experiencing widespread chronic ED because of the impact porn has had on their brain when it was developing during adolescence.  Interestingly, older men in their 40s have fewer ED problems. 
    Why?
    Because men in their 40s and older went through adolescence before the rise of Internet porn.  So it looks like GenX will be the last generation of men to have normal sexual function (generally) because, at least until The Savior returns, easy access to porn is here to stay now.
    I have never felt so grateful to be older before.  I'm 44 next week, and will do whatever I have to to keep my kids away from porn.
    Sin is sin not because it harms God, but because it harms US.
  24. Haha
    Behemoth reacted to NeedleinA in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    Oh boy
  25. Haha
    Behemoth reacted to Vort in Does masterbation break the law of chastity?   
    Thread title checks out.