Carborendum

As the Sunday School teacher, I get a pretty good sprinkling of what kinds of notions people have without proper background. I do my best to straighten them out. But often it really is no use. I know this will sound pretty pompous, but it is difficult to be patient with a lot of the stupidity that I hear from the class sometimes. So, the fact that people just don't take the time to think about it in the right way is no surprise to me. I tend to believe that this was the reason the Bishop called me to the position. There was too much false doctrine that people actually believed. And he knew that I'd dispel as much as I could. Yes, and I would make every effort to do the same. Endure. But (I'll repeat myself) there would come a point where I would realize that I had no hope of making any impact, and there would be a great danger of me and my family being consumed by the apostasy. I'd be forced to flee the ward/stake that has become Sodom and Gumorrah. Yes, I saw @zil2's post. And I agree. That would be the first option that I'd look into. I'd beg and plead for help from the Lord. But (AFAIK) selling the house and moving would either have been untenable or ineffective for @old. AFAIK, "going to the cave in the mountains of Zoar" seemed to be the only option for him. And if I didn't receive clear direction on how to proceed, I may have done the same thing to save my family from being consumed. I disagree. See Zil's post above for my response as well. Again, if I could not see any other tenable solution to the predicament, and I wasn't receiving any divine guidance otherwise, I may have done the same thing. Maybe it could be considered missionary work.

Yes. This is pretty frightening, isn't it? I wonder sometimes whether Pres Nelson's message of "it will be impossible to spiritually survive... without the .... witness of the Holy Ghost." was meant to cover circumstances when even our ward and stake leaders have gone over the edge. What exactly are we to do if that happens? The impression I got was that if he stayed and fought against those who were promoting apostasy, the bishop would have excommunicated them nullifying all their ordinances. That's not something I'd want to happen. I'd rather go to a different church.

I don't see anything that I disagree with in that post. Yet, I'm in an area where staying in the Church does not put my children at risk of being exposed to Sodom and Gumorrah. You did. I was hoping that this difference was the only thing that drove you over the edge. But (and I hope I'm misinterpreting) it seems from your tone, there is a lot more going on in your mind and heart that has not been in mine. Feel free to correct me. I can't read your mind, only your words.

That may be. But it wouldn't be the first time people mistook a prophet's words for license to continue in sin. And it seems pretty clear to me. He who must be commanded in all things...

I agree with your philosophy which you outlined (the correct one). But I disagree that the Church's position is at odds with that philosophy. The last quote above is not what you seem to think it is. We never say that it is ok to ruminate on it. In fact, that is what the Savior warned against in Matt 5. So, let me clarify what the Church's position is. While I'm not an official of the Church, I've heard and read enough commentaries from Church leaders that I believe I can give a good summary. The fact that we all have weakness and tendencies that are not in line with the Lord's will is obvious. It is why we need the Atonement. Some weaknesses are an underlying motivation to do that which the Lord condemns. We need to bridle our passions. We need to do everything we can to prevent these tendencies from turning into action. Dwelling on those tendencies and thoughts is the first step to actually committing the act. So STOP dwelling on them. Many heterosexual men will look on a woman who is drop dead gorgeous and have a physiological reaction that we don't really have a lot of control over. And if that man is married, he should do all he can to bridle his passions in that case. Let's say he is successful in shaking it off and moves on to think on other things, do we take Matt 5 literally? Is it the same as actually committing adultery? NO! If it were, I believe 95% of all men would need to be excommunicated. Committing it in his heart is a step further than simply having a reflexive reaction. The dwelling and fantasizing is a sin. But it is not actual adultery. The warning is that if you keep dwelling on it, the act is not far behind. The same goes for homosexual thoughts. The "reaction" may be something that will take a LONG time to change. But the command to bridle one's thoughts and passions is still given to those with SSA and others. It is the same standard. The fact that many tend to interpret it as you do, does not make it a correct interpretation of the Prophets' counsel.

You've just improved my vocabulary.

Oh. I was looking at the chart in your OP.

We skipped Ch 6? I was just looking at numbers and gematria recently. And I found something that may or may not mean anything at all. But it is interesting. In several verses, we see that the armies were in groups of 10,000. It is unclear what the maximum number was in ancient Hebrew. Modern Hebrew can go up to infinity. Ancient Greek the maximum number using gematria was 10,000. Ancient Latin allowed for 100,000. Egyptian heiroglyphics actually went up to 1 million. And they also had a number for zero (which was a phenomenal feat for the era of their prominence). So, when we see the sizes of the armies being repeatedly 10,000 that may have been a limitation of their numbering system. This means that each army could have been somewhat larger, but there was no way to number them.

I believe this is the biggest concern. Specifically, if people were to sue the publication of such data as defamation, that would be a big sacrifice. Who's willing to make such sacrifice? I think that the big advantage that the woke mob has over "responsible citizens" is that when you have nothing to lose, there is no sacrifice. It is one thing to keep your values in your home and family. It is another to have "public virtue." Most people don't even know what that term means. That should tell you how infrequent we find such a trait in today's population.

As I said, I don't blame you. I still disagree (as I said about the Brethren vs a single ward, or possibly a stake). But if there really is no option to keep your children safe from such apostasy, I would probably do the same thing. That is interesting. I have heard of some governmental episodes like that in a red state's rural area. But it is an absolute shame when this is coming from Saints who have agreed to abide by the Law of Chastity and claim to revere the family as the fundamental and most important unit of society. That's just a dang shame. BTW, a former forum member (Anatess) had similar experiences in her ward and stake. And she lives in Florida. They're certainly struggling. I don't know if moving is even an option for you. But some part of me believes that your faith in the gospel and of the covenants you've made are still there. You're just in a situation that prevents you from worshipping the way the ward should be worshipping. If there is any way for you to do that... Otherwise, staying in the wilderness may be your only option.

I can't speak for @old. But I'll speak for myself. I wouldn't go so far as Old, for one ward going astray. But I would do so if the Brethren did. We believe that the prophet and all the apostles are inspired by God. Joseph Smith said that the "key that will never rust" is to follow the majority of the 12 and the records of the Church. As such, when they say that there is a change in practice we abide by it. This also includes a modification or change to doctrines and beliefs. The Church has to be centered on Christ. If that center changes, there was nothing to the faith to begin with. Different denominations will say "this is Christ" or "here is Christ." Lo here. Lo there. But what is Christ? It is one thing to give it a name, it is another to give it a definition. Whatever Christ is or is not, the idea is that He will deliver us from evil/sin and open the path to heaven. What is heaven? For us, the Celestial Kingdom is all about Eternal Marriage & Eternal Families. Admit it or not, if sealing and eternal families are not part of the actual "core" (as Christ is) then it is pretty dang close. So close, in fact, that the "records of the Church" (mentioned above) can only mean the records of ordinances. And the most important ordinances of all, are those of sealing eternal families. You take eternal families out of our faith, then we're no different than any other Christian faith. Take that out and what is wrong with going to any other orthodox faith? There is no meaning or definition of our faith that provides anything different than any other Christian faith. Only the power to seal families for eternity. And as I stated earlier, the LGBT ideology is completely at odds with that doctrine. So, if something so fundamental is being tampered with by the Brethren, then we have a problem. I could not in all my soul go along with such a fundamental change unless I had a vision and theophany on the order of the First Vision. It is simply too basic, too fundamental.

Similar. Not quite the same. The picture he provided is more like what my sister had. They were wrapped up with gift wrap. And there was a pulling mechanism (somewhat like the mechanism that party poppers are based on. But it was like pulling apart a wishbone. If you pull it apart and it pops, you get your wish. If it doesn't pop, you don't get your wish. At least, that is what my sister did. And she said it was a tradition in the UK. But I'd depend on an actual Brit @Jamie123 to verify that.

My sister once had a party where these crackers were on each of our plate. She described the tradition. No one's crackers actually "popped." We kinda wondered if there actually was any mechanism in them to make a pop, or if we just got gypped.

My theory is that it is largely autobiographical. But he had some embellishments. And some of those embellishments may have been from other people's legitimate stories. The reason I chose to point that out was largely for the same motivations as what @Just_A_Guy and @Vort had spoken about. This essay/diary is not about sharing one's personal history to share the ups and downs of one's life. It was to write a puff piece about why we should celebrate his SSA. A real diary would have, or at least SHOULD have talked about ANYthing he did to actually overcome this trait and walk towards God. But he didn't. It was all about getting sympathy (even approval) for someone who has to deal with SSA, and why we should be understanding that he simply CANNOT overcome it. Well, maybe he can't. But the Lord can. Where in any of this entire account does he talk about reaching out to the Lord to help him overcome this? Was there any degree of repentance over this issue? One thing I've thought about a lot recently is that it is hubris to think we can overcome sin on our own. I the LDS faith, we tend to emphasize works a whole lot more than any protestant faith, and possibly more than orthodox faiths. But we need to remember that God's grace is real. And it is only through that grace that any of our works will ever bear fruit.

It is definitely a location driven practice. The more liberal your area, the more woke it will apply gospel principles. I live in Texas. We're pretty insulated. But we have three or four very liberal families. They do what they do. But they are not allowed to do what @olddescribed because no one would let them get away with it. One of the women of said families was asked to give a Sunday School lesson. They tried to say some defense of LGBT+ ideology. Several people pushed back. Unfortunately, the ward that Old described didn't have enough people who were of the correct mindset, educated in the defense of traditional families, and had the ability and will to defend the faith. Those few who remained probably got shot down by the overwhelmingly woke ward members. Nothing you can do. Yes, moving may be an option (as @zil2 indicated). But I don't blame him for just going to a different church. Here's why: It seems that his heart is still with the basic tenets of the faith. He probably still holds his covenants sacred. But like Lot and his household, he couldn't stay there lest he be consumed by their apostasy. So, he chose to go out into the wilderness. There was no other refuge immediately available to him. What else is he supposed to do?

I just got criticized because I followed the instruction I was given. An email sent to me said "See Attached." I downloaded the attached files and recognized them as documents I'd already reviewed. So, I considered my task done and moved on. Two weeks later (today) I got another email because the boss wondered where this email trail went. The guy who sent it to me responded that he had sent it to me (gave the date). I responded that, yes, he had sent it to me. I read the docs. He informed me that I was supposed to do what had been outlined 10 emails before (at the bottom of the email trail). Jump ahead: Apparently everyone in the office believes that "the email trail below" is included in "attached." It is interesting to note that everyone else in the trail said "See instructions below." But not him. He just said "See Attached." Am I the only one who was not aware of this?

Interesting article/commentary. https://mylifebygogogoff.com/2022/12/the-two-reasons-byus-spiral-into-wokeness-has-not-been-corrected.html I am not connected enough to BYU right now to reasonably comment on this. But it seems to be a reasonable assessment.

As a missionary, no it is not acceptable behavior to "celebrate" his SSA anymore than one should celebrate porn addiction, gluttony, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc. These are all weaknesses that various individuals have which the Lord tells us to overcome. And most people try to overcome them and change. But for some reason SSA is not something they believe they can change? It is not something to be overcome? This past couple weeks in Come, Follow Me have covered the first few chapters of Revelation. I would submit that Chapters 2 & 3 are the MOST important chapters of that revelation (for this past decade, and possibly the next). The interesting thing is that most people don't ever talk about these chapters. Those are the chapters that read more like a section of the D&C than a prophecy. I couldn't help but recognize that the word "overcome" occurs four times in one chapter, and (I believe) five more times in the remainder of the book. And we keep reading in that chapter about the sins of sexual immorality as being the issue with the churches that are addressed. This is not widely known because people don't know the background of various terms. One cannot overcome that which is celebrated. We need to feel remorse and a desire to rid ourselves of ANY tendency which will tempt us to deny the Lord's will.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I hear you. Some interesting things happening elsewhere. My wife has received some really interesting news from our extended family. Big family -- she's 4th of 7 children. A WHOLE BUNCH OF BAD STUFF is happening. Some dysfunctionality that we were already aware of getting worse. Some disfunction that we were NOT aware of. Some trials that come to all. And even righteous living is not a complete immunization from all "bad things." They have their trials to teach and help them grow, just as all of us do. When my wife informed me of all this, I felt heartbroken. Her family is one of those families that you have to wonder "why does all this crap keep happening to them?" They do so many things right. And in so many ways, they are simply model families. They're all the types of homes that everyone trusts with their children going over to play with them. But by the grace of God, they've been blessed with relief from some of it. The rest of it... they're coping. Since most of the family lives in the same state, they tend to keep in contact. But living a 16 hr drive away, we don't necessarily get filled in on all the details. And we haven't visited physically in several years. We're heading there the weekend before Christmas. When we spoke about this to a couple of our kids, I couldn't help but express to them "Be thankful for having a normal life with a normal family. Maybe it's boring at times. But looking at all this stuff that has happened to people so close to us, sometimes boring is good. But be sure to include them in your prayers." One possible good thing to come of this is that her SIL is proposing that we could let her daughter (who is the same age as, and very close to, one of our daughters) come live with us. There are various conditions that make this a decent idea for both our households. Neither household is dead set on it. But we're discussing it. If it is a go, she could be driving back with us from vacation. Our home will be completely full by then. If we take any more, Empress will have to give up her sewing room... or I'll have to give up my office. BTW, I'm being courted by a couple of companies that are offering me a position that may entice me to give up my consulting business and go to work for them full-time. I'll really need some divine guidance on that decision. If that happens, I could give up my office. We'll see how that pans out.

I only made it through chapter 6. I have no idea where this was going. And life is short. While I believe this story is somewhat representative of many homosexuals navigating the life he describes, I don't believe this was truly autobiographical. The style and flow and certain pieces that don't fit into a single person's experiences. Possible? Yes. Likely? No. I believe someone else wrote it. Therefore, it could be the author's amalgamation of stories from multiple individuals. Regardless, I'll look at this story as it stands as a fully autobiographical piece. I'm glad that it showed a very common reality that when those suffering from SSA come out to family and friends, there really isn't a lot of anger or hatred. It is usually some form of acceptance (whether it is "we love you anyway" or "we'll try to help you through this" or or possibly "cool, dude") rather than rejection. I had a problem with his exchange with Elder Rasband. I find it difficult to believe the response was an accurate depiction. We have been told in the Proclamation that It is important to note that in MULTIPLE articles on the topic, the Church has CLEARLY stated that "gender" in this sentence refers to biological sex at birth. (Yes, there are the extremely rare exceptions of intersex, Klinefelter Syndrome, etc. But we at least start with the rule, then discuss the exceptions later.) If exalted, SSA would be fundamentally incongruent with the nature of eternity and of eternal marriage. Perhaps there is an argument for lower kingdoms (which I tend to disagree with). But to say we have no revelation on the fact for (at the very least) Eternal marriage? Not buying that.

Yes and no. We believe he was changed somehow. But Jesus pointed to the fact that the claim "he would never die" is not entirely accurate. We all will have to die at some point. But he was allowed to "tarry". We know of a state called Translation. This means that a mortal man will be raised to a Terrestrial state of being. We don't really know what this is. But it is a higher state than we now experience. Yet it is not a resurrected Celestial state. They have not actually died. The spirit never separated from the body. But at some point they will have to experience death "in the twinkling of an eye." So, essentially, an instantaneous death (separation of spirit from body) followed by a reuniting of the spirit and body with a Celestial glory. What some debate is this additional state of tarrying. Some say this is translation. Some say otherwise. We, today, live in a mortal telestial world. Those that tarry live in an immortal state with Telestial glory so they can wander on this earth and blend in. We don't know if John tarried or if he was translated. I don't know if it really matters. For all practical purposes, they seem to function the same as far as we know. They are ageless Don't need food or rest. They are free from disease or physical harm. They feel no pain except sorrow for the sins of mankind. So whether that is two states or the same state doesn't really make much of a difference.

Alum. No, not the hydrated salt of aluminum. The word that used to be an abbreviation for alumnus, alumna, alumni, alumnae. Now "Alum" is the standard, gender-neutral word for individual alumni of all stripes. I found this out because the BYU Alumni financial aid office is using this word in their application process. My family then informed me that several professors have been openly preaching that the Book of Mormon is not meant to be taken literally. It was basically just a huge metaphor. None of that stuff really happened. I've already heard of certain professors advising all students to get with the woke program or they'll be fired from their jobs. But it seems to be getting into personal lives and testimonies now.

Gold = When gold was given as a gift, it was usually to royalty. (Recognition as King) Frankincense = Incense used in the Temple. (Recognition as Spiritual Leader) Myrrh = Used in embalming. (Recognition that He would die & conquer death for all) King, God, Savior.

This New Yorker article published just last month asks whether it is morally acceptable to have children in a burning drowning world. Not a new thing, I know. But I see this as becoming a more mainstream ideal that will be a "cancellable" offense in the coming years, unless things turn around. I just wanted to highlight one of the introductory phrases of the article which, I believe, encapsulates the feelings, intent, and mentality of the green-to-human-extinction mindset: I want to point out that the word "crystalline" may mean one of two things in this context: structured clear I gotta ask: Is it clearly structured or is it uncertain? Certainly clearly structured uncertainty is an oxymoron. And isn't it a bit redundant to say a "structured uncertainty to the structure"? Yeah, not really. This kind of self-contradicting reasoning is what is driving the ideology. Do they even listen to themselves? Apparently, it is now considered irrational to have children. This has always been the center of the whole green movement. Yes, it also includes many other aspects that will (if left unchecked) destroy the world as we know it. And the new world order will not be pleasant. I'd say that if they really believe that having children will actually destroy the world, then let them go on without having children. We'll have children and raise them with good sense, work ethic, time-tested morals, and faith in God. That's the way to win.

He still has a shot at being correct. If Biden is removed from office (death, impeachment, resignation, etc.) the pattern appears to be correct. If that doesn't happen, then it apparently was a false interpretation. We don't have too long to wait.