romans8

When I look at pictures that could represent the mercy seat, it is in the shape of a rectangle. So the angel on the left could really be the angel on the right depending on which side you are viewing things from. Instead of changing your position, you instead rotate the mercy seat and the identity of the cherub changes again. Exodus 25:20 refers to the wings and faces of the cherubim. What are their faces symbolic of? The cherubs were made of gold. Are you saying gold symbolizes those associated with God and those associated with Satan, or Jesus and Satan are the gods above the mercy seat, or both of these?

I think you misunderstood what I concluding earlier. Being an heir of God makes one a joint-heir of Christ (but only if you are a child of his). Those not considered as sons are referred to as illegitimate (Hebrews 12:7-8). Those not led by the Spirit are not sons (heirs/joint-heirs). I see the "if, then, and" statement revealing only a single group of people. The part of suffering is associated with sons and daughters (the heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ).

I came across this rather lengthy article. https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/psalm-82-in-contemporary-latter-day-saint-tradition/ But I wonder if "ye are gods" means the same thing as "ye shall become gods"? Do you believe the Psalm 82 talks about one group of people in verses verses 1-2 and then another group in verses 6-7?

Thanks. I read those verses. 14-17 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. From this I see all who are led by the spirit of God are children of God and joint-heirs with Christ. There is no child of God who is not also a joint-heir. But I see from a church teaching that joint-heirs is a reference to exalted beings - those who become gods. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-3?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng This would indicate terrestrial and telestial inhabitants are not considered children of God because they are not joint-heirs. Jehovah's Witnesses believe joint-heirs is a reference to only 144,000 people ruling with Christ in heaven in some future day but this would classify millions of others, including myself, as not being children of God. Matteo

I did not understand. What choice?

I have heard that thought before. But on what basis does one believe Adam thought he would be expelled from Eden after eating the fruit? Eve did not know about her eventual expulsion until after she ate, gave some to Adam, and then heard God announcing it. When they realized they were naked, there was no idea of expulsion in their mind. That is how I see it when I read that portion.

Going back to verses 1 and 2 for context, who are the gods who judge unjustly and accept the persons of the wicked?

The reason behind the question is that I see a teaching that Adam's disobedience is not viewed as a sin, whereas other teachings say it was a sin. Not a sin: The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual - 2018 A sin: New Testament Student Manual - 2018 March 2008 Ensign article

I see the covenants as a means to becoming more Christ-like but not into becoming a God and then being worshipped on worlds that I populate with my spirit children (as like what happened with Heavenly Father of our Earth who supposedly was a man become God).

First of all, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Thank you for your kind words and invitation. I am not there yet - as for getting baptized into this church, but I am still learning. More prayer and study are in order though. I meet with the occasional missionaries with face to face zoom/google sometimes. Matteo

Who are the unclean in this passage: "Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever" (1 Nephi 10:21). Is 'cast off' a designation for the terrestrial and telestial inhabitants? Matteo

Maybe I could explain it by saying the sons of Adam and Eve were born with a fallen condition (separated from God) through no action of their own. In a sense, they were indirectly punished via the actions of their parents in that they (Cain and Abel) had this fallen/sinful nature right from their physical birth. I think the LDS Christian view might be the same in this regard. I provided Alma 42:9-10 earlier for reference.

I found these two other verses in Alma 42. "Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state" (9-10).

From verse 4, I see Mormon was concerned about their disputations. From verse 5, he says that if he has learned the truth, the truth he learned is about there being disputations concerning the baptism of little children. From verse 6-7, it looks to me that Mormon only learned that this was an abominable practice only after he sought guidance from the Lord. I do not get any sense that Mormon thought it was wrong before he sought the Lord's guidance and then received a confirmation. As for what curse was removed from little children, I also could not see that explained in Moroni 8. Or maybe the curse is described in Alma 42:9-10, which I quoted in a later thread reply.

I believe we are all indirectly punished as a result of Adam's transgression (in that we are all fallen by nature, including infants). I don't believe in infant baptism and I don't believe unbaptized or deceased infants go to Hell. In their death, they are heaven bound due to Christ's atonement. Matteo

According to Moroni 8, why did the Nephites misunderstand the atonement of Christ and baptize little children? It seemed Moroni also did not know this so he had to inquire of the Lord so as to correct the abominable practice. And what curse on the little children was taken away by Christ?

I have a question about this Article of Faith We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Can this be equated to something like: Men and women can choose to play in whatever sports they wish but not all will play baseball? Is AOF #2 comparing one fruit to another type of fruit or one fruit to another vegetable? I found this reference in the church's "New Testament Student Manual - Religion 211–212" https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/philippians-and-colossians/chapter-45-philippians-and-colossians?lang=eng “Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father. He is our Creator. He is our Teacher. He is our Savior. His atonement paid for the sin of Adam and won victory over death, assuring resurrection and immortality for all men". Does "sin of Adam" equate to "Adam's transgression" in this case? Matteo

I found a good article that explains excommunication as the early church practiced it. https://www.gotquestions.org/excommunication.html

This is the event described by the sixth seal as I see it. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? I do not see anything about a restoration of the gospel in the above verses. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1983/10/book-of-revelation-overview?lang=eng indicates the sixth seal represents the time around 1000 AD to 2000 AD, but I do not recall any great earthquake at the beginning of that time frame. Matteo

According to this article and another, the more appropriate term to use is "moral agency". From what I can see from the church's Gospel Principles manual in chapters 2&4, spirit children had moral agency in the pre-mortal life. Their choices were between good and evil there. There was a limit to progression there so they had to come to earth. "Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time" (page 10). "In our premortal life we had moral agency" (page 17). "Without the gift of agency, we would have been unable to show our Heavenly Father whether we would do all that He commanded us". "As we obey each of our Father’s commandments, we grow in wisdom and strength of character. Our faith increases. We find it easier to make right choices. We began to make choices as spirit children in our Heavenly Father’s presence. Our choices there made us worthy to come to earth". "We cannot choose righteousness unless the opposites of good and evil are placed before us". Matteo

I found the definitions on page 14 in this publication. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/content/english/manual/missionary/pdf/36950_the-plan-of-salvation-eng.pdf

Thank you for all your comments.

I saw some explanation of it on this General Conference sermon. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2015/04/the-parable-of-the-sower?lang=eng Elder Oaks mentions 3 locations: I. Stony Ground, No Root II. Thorns: The Cares of This World and the Deceitfulness of Riches III. Fell into Good Ground and Brought Forth Fruit Is there a reason why he omitted the location of the way side? He also said, "The parable of the sower warns us of circumstances and attitudes that can keep anyone who has received the seed of the gospel message from bringing forth a goodly harvest". If I were talking about this parable, I would mention one very important adversary; the fowls. "And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.". Can the birds also be viewed as negative in the parable of the mustard seed? One person's explanation is found here - https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/library/biblestudy/id/1115/parable-mustard-seed.htm I see that the parable encompasses two main groups of people: 1] those on the way side, stony ground, and among the thorns (no fruit is produced or whatever fruit is then becomes unfruitful). 2] those on the good ground (fruit is produced and remains good). I found two definitions in the "Plan of Salvation" guide. Terrestrial kingdom. People who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but who live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom. Telestial kingdom. Those who continue in their sins and do not repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom. Which of these two kingdom inhabitants encompass group #1? Matteo

@Fether God had originally created Adam and Eve good; without a sinful nature. They were created in the image of God. However, with their disobedience, sin entered into their nature. When they had children, Adam's image and likeness was passed along to his offspring (Romans 5:12). This verse also depicts the truth that sin leads to death (Romans 6:23 and Ephesians 2:1). Those who are in the realm of the flesh (or sinful nature) cannot please God (Romans 8:7–8). The Book of Mormon indicates likewise. "This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people" (Alma 12:22). "Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state" (Alma 42:9-10). "And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters" (Mosiah 27:25). "... but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins" (Mosiah 3:16). "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord" (Mosiah 3:19). Matteo

I found some mention of the brass plates at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/01/the-plates-of-brass-a-witness-of-christ?lang=eng The Brass Plates may well have been the official scripture of the Ten Tribes. It is probable that some prophets wrote on these plates whose writings may not have been recorded on the records kept in Judah. Were Zenos, Zenock, Neum, and Ezias … among them?” (Answers to Book of Mormon Questions, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1967, pp. 43–44.)