romans8

If it was good to them, why did they feel fear and shame?

All the dispersed Ukrainians we met had a profound sadness in their eyes. They left homeland and husbands/fathers. While we provide food, shelter, and comfort to them, they still yearn to return to the only home they ever had and to hopefully be reunited with their loved ones. As Ukraine survived and recovered after the second World War, let's hope the recovery happens again. It will take time, prayer, and God's provision. I especially note the strength and resiliency of their children with all they have gone through. It is almost like they are battle hardened with everything that has happened throughout their history.

I was away for a while dealing with family matters in lieu of what is going on in Ukraine. Things have settled down a bit but we are still doing hospitality work with the hurting.

In Exodus 25:18-22, I got the impression that you believe the cherubs really do not have wings but that wings is symbolic of power or authority and that face to face means their are not in unison but in opposition. I will assume you believe Jesus has more power/authority than Satan. If you look at the construction of the mercy seat as described in Exodus, what would give you the impression that the two cherubs were unequal in power or authority? Would you always be able to tell which left or right cherub was the advocate cherub as you faced the mercy seat from the other side, assuming it was rectangular?

Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article. "While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways". "During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it. However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish". When God gave the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, did he only have procreation in mind or were Adam and Eve being fruitful and multiplying by taking care of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden? Can this commandment be applied to married couples or single people who do not or cannot have children or who remain single? Matteo

That makes sense. So it sounds like the man can have as many marriage covenants as he has wives whereas each wife has only one marriage covenant. Is there any type of covenant between each of the wives to each other or between the first wife to all the other wives?

No need to apologize. I connect every week or two so I am in no rush.

I agree. But we have no indication in scripture where becoming one flesh is with a man and his spouses. I also believe that marriage is as much about the man cleaving unto his wife as it is a woman cleaving to her husband. Exodus 1:24 says "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (ESV). As the man leaves his parents, so does the woman also leave her parents. It is not a condition solely put on the man. I do not see the concept of a primary responsibility or a secondary responsibility placed on Adam and Eve in this case. In another unrelated incident, maybe you feel God put the primary responsibility to eat from the forbidden fruit on Eve and the secondary responsibility on Adam.

I'm leaning more towards the comments made in https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/mercy-seat-god I do believe Jesus and Satan are in opposition, but I do not view Jesus as a cherub. Neither do I see any indication in the Old Testament description of the mercy seat that the cherubs are in opposition to each other.

From reading Galatians chapter 4, I would say law (applied to the Israelites) versus grace (applied to first the Israelites and then to all peoples). "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But as then he that was born after the flesh [Ishmael] persecuted him that was born after the Spirit [Isaac], even so it is now ... So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.". I am of not from any of the literal tribes of Israel but I would consider myself a child of the free.

I don't know if Latter-day Saints consider polygamy as a man and his wives becoming "one flesh". I could only find a scriptural reference for monogamy.

I was just commenting on your interpretation of the two cherubs. When I read the Old Testament account of the mercy seat with the cherubs, there is no indication that they are face to face as if they are in battle with each other like hockey teams trying to beat each other in a game. Face to face can also mean agreement and cooperation, not opposition. In a previous post, you did not indicate how the High Priest could look at the mercy seat and say "this one here is the accuser cherub" and "that one there is the advocate cherub". Since the cherubim are both made of gold, it is very unlikely that gold would represent both Christ and Lucifer. Jesus is not a cherub. https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/mercy-seat-god has a good discussion about this. Let me know what you think about it.

I am aware of that scripture but do not see anything about a man and two or more women leaving their parents and becoming "one" in marriage.

I mean no offense but the question stems from trying to follow the implications of eternal families when it comes to all the gods and goddesses and their spirit children that are believed to exist in your church theology. You should not conclude my trying to understand the concept of eternal families then asking some hypothetical questions as absurd or ignorant. If you are uncomfortable with some hypothetical answers, then I cannot help you there. I have a hard time trying to understand how God has always existed as God and nothing less than God.

I view Jesus as God, not a god. For god, I would apply the term given to Satan, Moses, and some judges (2 Corinthians 4:4, Exodus 7:1, Psalm 82:1-8).

This would imply that Heavenly Father participated in an Atonement on some other world and married a woman whom he atoned for on that world. I do not see Jesus following the path that he saw the Father do when Jesus is God before taking on human flesh and Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.

Suppose you have a God who had two sons and two daughters. Those two sons and daughters become Gods themselves and procreate two spirits sons. One of those sons becomes the God and Heavenly Father of our planet Earth. Is this Heavenly Father of Earth considered part of the eternal family of only the children he procreates on Earth or is he also part of the eternal family of the other Gods and relatives in his lineage before him (where they all live in the same Celestial kingdom)? Or do you have multiple eternal families, which each God and his wife is separated from all the other families in their own Celestial kingdom?

I do not get any indication that the cherubs on the mercy seat are in direct opposition or in a game to defeat the other. How does the power and direct involvement of the accuser cherub on the mercy-seat represent mercy?

What do you mean by a God who creates humans ex nihilo? I find it hard to grapple with the mercy of God and his judgment. Especially when I read the parable about final outcome for the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31. God does not desire suffering or wickedness, but he has allowed it to happen. It all originated with the fall.

You said in a prior post "Remember, God accepts all his children for who they are. He has even prepared a place for all his children who choose to live according to "who they are" (naturally) rather than according to who they are spiritually. God accepts his sons and daughters who live a life fit for the Telestial kingdom. God accepts his sons and daughters who want to live a life only for Terrestrial glory. I do not see Deuteronomy 1:35 and Ezekiel 23 reflecting those people going to a future place of glory. Maybe this helps explain what I wrote.

Exodus 25:20 says "The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be". What do wings and faces symbolize? Why do both cherubs look towards [supposedly the middle of] the mercy seat?

A little introduction about the origin of Islam would be helpful. A friend of mine has done a lot of research about it (and available on Amazon). Qur'an-Bible Comparison: A Topical Study of the Two Most Influential and Respectful Books in Western and Middle Eastern Civilizations by Ami Ben-Chanan | Feb 4, 2011 Muhammad is said to have met with an unidentified spirit and he was so frightened he believed he had a demonic experience. Muhammad met with his wife and she tried to convince him that he was wrong in thinking it was a demon who visited him. She did not succeed. Then Muhammad met with Waraqa, a blind man, who affirms him that his wife was correct but Muhammad himself was wrong. He was finally able to convince Muhammad that it was the angel Gabriel who had actually visited him. There are three stages to this story in the Quran. 1. Muhammad and the spirit 2. Muhammad and Khadija, his wife 3. Muhammad, Khadija and Waraqa Waraqa was able to convince Muhammad by comparing the Moses' experience at the burning bush with the experience of Muhammad. The biblical story of Moses also has three stages. 1. Moses and God 2. Moses and Aaron, his brother 3. Moses, Aaron and the elders of Israel We have some differences. In stage 2 he met with Aaron and convinced him; later in stage 3 both of them met with elders of Israel and convinced them. In Muhammad's experience, Muhammad was sure that he had met a demon in stage 1. In stage 2 he told everything to Khadija and she tried unsuccessfully to convince Muhammad. In stage 3 both of them went to meet blind Waraqa, and finally he was able to convince Muhammad that it was the angel Gabriel sent from God. And Moses told Aaron all the words of the Lord who had sent him, and all the signs which he had commanded him. And Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the children of Israel: And Aaron spake all the words which the Lord had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people. And the people believed: and when they heard that the Lord had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped (Exodus 4:28-31). Moses was convinced by God in stage 1. Muhammad was convinced by Waraqa at stage 3 and Islam was created. If Muhammad had had an encounter like the Ethiopian eunuch with Philip, the religion of Islam may never have been.

I believe the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, etc) all begin with a personal choice. Then the person who wishes to maintain this lifestyle shifts to a belief they were born (or made by God) that way to try to soften any guilt, pain, or reason to repent. After reading some passages like Deuteronomy 1:35 and Ezekiel 23, I do not see God accepting all his children for who they are and however they live their life and then preparing a future place of glory for such.

If God is the father of both Christ and Satan through procreation with a heavenly mother, then there should be no cause for concern for they would indeed be spirit brothers.

My viewpoint differs from LDS theology. I believe there will be only 2 destinations. The Kingdom of God and the realm where God is not present (i.e. outer darkness - Matthew 8:12; 13:42; 13:50; and 25:23). "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also". I believe "where Christ is" is the Kingdom of God, not a kingdom made up of 3 heavens or degrees and two others (called Terrestrial and Telestial).