NeuroTypical

Shooter is claiming he was attacked. People are talking about the victim throwing popcorn and swearing. The standard is "reasonable fear" - if you are in reasonable fear of your life, you can take action to defend yourself. Popcorn and swear words don't rise to that level. I guess we'll see if there was anything else involved.

Hi KountC, Do you know which leader is speaking?

*sigh*Just as a reminder of what's gone on earlier in the thread, you've already been directed to these links: Account in Scripture: Extracts from the History of Joseph Smith, the Prophet Chapter 1 Orson Pratt and David Whitmer talked about it: Orson Pratt's Call to Serve The Contributions of Martin Harris 1974: Friend Magazine: A Peaceful Heart 1992: BYU: Book of Mormon Translation By Joseph Smith 1993: A Treasured Testament - Ensign 1997: By the Gift and Power of God - Ensign 2002-present: Doctrine & Covenants Student Manual: Section 30 "Your Mind Has Been on the Things of the Earth" January 2013: Great and Marvelous Are the Revelations of God Great and Marvelous Are the Revelations of God - Ensign Jan. 2013 - ensign Current: Book of Mormon Translation mdfxdb, you're really starting to come across as a single-issue zealot here. Unable to change his mind, unwilling to change the subject. How on earth can all these links constitute "Knowingly not correcting a falsehood"? Are you looking for something more like a statement from the church that we were wrong? Maybe something like this from Oct 2013: Top Mormon Leader Acknowledges the Church ‘Made Mistakes’ Honestly, I don't get why you're so dug in to this criticism.

Well, to continue picking this nit, no he didn't. God rendered in another language, Joseph read (or felt) the English words and said them out loud. Joseph didn't gain the ability to comprehend the other language, which is necessary in order to translate - he gained the ability to see the English translation God put there for him. I basically agree here.

Anyone able to give the OP a little love here?

I enjoy a higher quality marriage, to a gay guy my wife worked with before we got married. He was bitter, depressed, and sometimes suicidal. His partner/roommate was dying of aids. The partner was dealing with his own impending death better than this guy. My wife and this guy had a series of incredibly deep conversations about the meaning of life, the nature of God, what is worthwhile and what is ultimately worthless. She tells me both of them came away with altered worldviews. Those conversations helped him gain a little more peace about things, and helped my wife lay a foundation that has been built on to include a temple sealing, a marriage in it's 2nd decade, faith, and children. I never met him, but I owe him.

Because half of the civilized world have bought into the lie that mormons hate gay people. Here's your chance to prove them wrong, by telling a personal anecdote.It's a good PR move. Sort of the same thinking behind mormons.org, and this website for that matter. Has anyone else noticed how every thread on this website has somewhere between 50-2000% more views than posts? Yeah, we pretty much never convince the people with which we're discussing, but there are endless hoards of anonymous people coming here to find out what mormons really have to say about things.

So, I actually worked for a translation company for over two years back in the '90's. I learned about how the process worked, different languages, common issues and challenges. Work hours were sometimes early or late, so we could talk to our colleagues in Japan or China or Germany or wherever. Now I only speak English, yet I got familiar enough with the process to be able to identify languages just by looking at the text. I can see if something is written in Portuguese vs Spanish, I can tell the difference between Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. Heck, I was able to tell between Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese. At the top of my game, I could even figure out where one translator stopped and another translator started working, just by looking at a block of translated text. I say all this to establish my credentials as someone who knows a thing or two about the translation process.So listen to what I have to say: In my experience of talking to thousands of people all over the world across two decades, most people are almost completely ignorant of how translation works. Most of you don't even know what you don't know. What a typical person "typically thinks of a translation process" is less than useless - it's likely a handful of baseless assumptions that have rarely risen to the level of a conscious thought. In your case, everything you figure we "typically think" about it, probably was based largely on that picture you were shown in Primary. This isn't a bad thing. It's just not knowing. We all go through life actually knowing very little of everything there is to know. Here's a very, very brief primer of what translation looks like: On the Beach, or Why You Can't Just Translate the Words After you've read it, (and feel free to show it to anyone from the t9n industry* if you doubt it's wisdom), you'll probably notice that it describes a whole lot of stuff that you've never even began to think about as what Joseph did. And, having read the accounts of Joseph's process, I'd have to agree. What Joseph did cannot really be considered translation at all. Because he didn't know how to read the text on the plates. That's right - I just claimed, in a thread where the words "translate" or "translation" have been used over a hundred times, by all parties in the conversation, that what Joseph did can't correctly be seen as "translating". If you read that link and think for a bit, you may be able to understand why. But we use the word "translate", because it's what we all think of, even though we're all wrong. Can you imagine me trying to teach any of this to a group of bored primary kids who just want their snack? So, mdfxdb, not only was that picture wrong, but the entire use of the word "translation" is wrong. God was the being doing the translating - Joseph just read the English words as they appeared (in a stone or in his mind), and saw they were written down more or less correctly. Because I know all this, I continue to be unable to rise to the level of concern you think appropriate. The church, peopled by folks ignorant of how translation works, needed a way to get across how Joseph created the BoM to it's young members, who also are largely ignorant of how translation works. Joseph himself used the word in error, having never done a day of real translation in his whole youthful life up until that point, and having still never done real translation after the dictation was all done. Nobody had really looked that closely into the accounts of how it actually happened (at least we can be pretty sure the folks who came up with that picture hadn't), so they did what you did - made an assumption which turned out to be based in ignorance. You can call that "misleading" if you like. I'll call it an innocent mistake. Regrettable? Sure. Look at what it's doing to you. Nobody wanted that to happen. When they make me emperor of the mormons and give me a time machine, I'll go back to the people coming up with that picture, and have them read the 2014 link off lds.org, and come up with a different picture. But until then, I'm just going to continue not being agitated about the whole deal, and I sincerely suggest you consider letting go as well. * t9n = translation (the letter "t", followed by 9 letters, ending with "n". Folks in the industry actually prefer L10n or I18n, because localization and internationalization are better than simple translation. Go ahead - google "L10N".)

I'm on the reclusive nutcase end of the spectrum. My cell phone is my servant, not my master. If you have information to communicate to me, voice mail is fine, email is better. My cell phone gets crappy reception where we live, and that's my excuse to keep from offending people.

Ender's game - twice. Once with kid #1, and again with both kids. The book series is all on the way for kid #1's birthday.

I dunno - you tell me: "Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [but] Any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a b*st*rd." -- Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, January 29, 1843. Source: "An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith," edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc.,1989, p. 298 Because he told us so himself. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young - Chapter 28: Exercising Self-Control "Many men will say they have a violent temper, and try to excuse themselves for actions of which they are ashamed. I will say, there is not a man in this house who has a more indomitable and unyielding temper than myself." (He goes on to explain how one can overcome their passion.) How many business ventures does one need to fail at, in the absence of any business successes, before one could rightly claim the title of "horrible business owner"? I'm really interested in a number. One? Five? "One more than Joseph"? Anyway, I suppose I can't really say I got this notion from church, because it was some of the scholarly commenting from folks like Hugh Nibley and people at FAIR who went through his history.You know, Joseph was a great leader, very charismatic, with an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and learning, and the people who knew him best (friend or foe) pretty much all said he possessed great character, honesty, and genuine forthrightness. It's ok if he stank at business, isn't it? Church, don't tell me you're now ticked off that some of this stuff wasn't covered more when you were in primary... :)

Huh. Lots and lots of stories come through here, but I don't often hear something like this.You say she's supportive of you coming back to church, you're both ok with changing the relationship to no sex before marriage, and she's still as interested in getting married as you are? I mean, I can't really tell from just one paragraph from an anonymous source, but she sounds like she might be a keeper. Distaste for organized religion isn't a deal breaker in my mind. You'd hardly be the first part-member family at church, I have several in my ward. My advice, is continue coming to church. You say you want it back in your life, go for it. You are certainly not the only excommunicated person who would like back in. I suggest you schedule a meeting with your bishop, and tell him everything. Why you're ex'd, your current living arrangements, and the desires of your heart. I'm thinking he'll probably work with you.

One more fun story, told by BYU professor Dan Peterson: Members of the committee laughed, and the committee chairman sent my lesson on up, incorporating their suggested revisions but also still including my little joke, to Salt Lake City. Where it passed Correlation. (I can only assume that each member of the committee chuckled and then passed it on, expecting that somebody else would remove it.) When I received the galleys of the lesson back for final approval just before it went to press, the joke was still there. I faced one of the greatest moral crises of my life, but finally called Church headquarters and suggested that they probably didn't really want the lesson to go out to Church members entirely as it stood. So the joke was removed. The point being that Gospel Doctrine manuals are not to be confused with authoritative divine revelations. Folks screw up and are wrong sometimes. Sometimes, lots and lots and lots of people can be all wrong about the same thing. Sometimes those people are all found in a certain organization like a religion. This is what living life on planet earth as a social human being involves. Ok, it can be shocking when it first dawns on you. Now you know.

You're supposed to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." The table/sheet thing isn't proven, and doesn't have to be held fast. Not everything you grew up believing is true. Not everything taught to you by good people is true. It honestly looks like a simple case of sinning in ignorance. The church is full of imperfect, error-prone, fallible humans, and folks who approve curriculum are no exception. I don't believe mdfxdb (or you) have a weak or a strong testimony - I don't know either of you well enough to make an informed guess.

Some things I learned outside of church through study: * Joseph Smith exercised his 2nd amendment rights (not just in Carthage jail). * He once used a swear word in a letter, when talking about men who wouldn't defend their families. * The dedication of the Kirtland temple was marked with numerous miracles, including people in different areas of the room standing up and singing a hymn, in perfect harmony, in a language that none of them knew. Things I learned about in church, but only because I was paying attention: * Brigham Young had some serious anger management issues. * Joseph was a really horrible business owner. * Stickpulls were what people did for fun before cars and internet. Stuff at least one person told me at church that I have somehow failed to accept as true: * I had a primary teacher tell us that the third part which sided with Lucifer came to earth and got bodies. So one out of every three people you meet in life is actually a demon in disguise. * A scout leader once told me that gays would destroy the country and God would allow it if we didn't stop them. * A convert who had once belonged to the Community of Christ (RLDS) told me Nephites and Incas are the same thing.

No effort?LDS.org - Book of Mormon Translation Ensign, July 1993: A Treasured Testament Doctrine & Covenants Student Manual: Section 30 "Your Mind Has Been on the Things of the Earth" Heck, it's even in a 1974 edition of Friend Magazine: A Peaceful Heart And double-heck, it's in scripture: Extracts from the History of Joseph Smith, the Prophet Chapter 1 Not sure what you mean by 'formal declaration'. You mean that stuff on LDS.org? The church is responding to common criticisms on it's website more and more. Mountain Meadows Massacre. Blacks and the priesthood. Polygamy. That's what websites are for - to make information easy to access. Don't get me wrong - the church spent a lot of time not being very internet savvy. Those days seemed to end about four or five years ago.

Look. It seems like you're coming down a very normal learning curve that everyone travels eventually. As we mature, we start doing our own research and forming our own opinions and coming to our own conclusions, independent of our parents or teachers or peers. You drop their worldview and create your own. It happens differently for everyone (I started in my 20's, moving away from my dad's political beliefs and into my own). This is a human being thing, not a mormon thing. It's important for all of us to understand what we believe, and why we believe it. As you move through life, you will find out more and more (if you haven't already) instances of stuff you were taught that you no longer believe. I predict that as years go by, you'll have much less "because that's what I was taught" as answers there. Think, read, study, pray, research, keep an open mind. (I'm not suggesting them in any order.) The church "perpetuates the picture of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry seated at a table", because that's what our church libraries have in stock, the church has a miserly restocking budget, and folks who are called to teach the youth don't know any better. There's nothing nefarious about it - nothing that signals the death of the truth claims of the BoM or restored church. The prophet is not leading the church astray by failing to purge libraries of these heretical pictures. If you're looking for historical accuracy in paintings, don't get me started. You know how many problems I have with this?:

Well, I went and googled for about 30 seconds, here's what I found.BYU: Book of Mormon Translation By Joseph Smith, 1992 It's a good summary of what happened, and mentions seer stones. And it would seem to answer your question about why your sunday school classes left you feeling uneducated. There's also: LDS.org: Book of Mormon Translation All good?

I threw away the last of my 3.5" backup disks last year. About three years after my last 3.5" drive went away. Now I miss what was on them. I can't exactly remember, but it was important enough that I made backups, so obviously their departure should leave a ragged hole in my heart.

I've never heard the term "mormon glow" before. I'm going to go with my gut here, and just reject the phrase. I want nothing to do with it, and I refuse to be associated with it in any way. I know way too many mormons who shine with something, but it ain't the light of Christ. I know your blog is mainly about landing a spouse, so as I choose to view that statement in that context, yes. But in a wider context, I feel the need to speak for the sinners and heathen and ugly people out there. They get attracted to the spirit of Christ too. And given the tone of your article, they're a little anxious. It almost feels like you'd rather they not come up to you. I'm sure it's not your intent. Your blog even mentions this as one way to radiate: Just make sure that you figure out how to treat folks interested in your glow accordingly. Can you figure out how adulterous people, athiests, ugly folk, and drug dealers can add value to your life?

We got a new computer with Win8. We do what we always do with every new version of windows. Swear at it, get mad, figure it out, use the helpful stuff, avoid the useless stuff, and life goes on. Yeah, it's trying to make believe it's an iPod touch. I don't care - I figured out how to get to my desktop and search for programs, and it can sit there and think what it wants.

Yay! He came back! I have an audio CD of his first appearance. I've directed angry suspicious antimormon Christians to his website and link to his address. Between Zacharias, Mosser, Owen, and Muow, they've probably done the best job at housecleaning in the last decade or so.

Heh - I'm an only child, who married the middle kid (and only sister among five brothers). I can relate to some of this.

I've heard the notion of "redemptive suffering", where the more you suffer, the greater reward. I've also heard the notion that you can suffer and someone else gets the reward. I pretty much reject both notions.But that's probably not what you were talking about. I'm also mindful of folks with various disorders such as depression or crippling anxiety, where sometimes it just isn't possible to feel joy or happiness due to some chemical imbalance in the brain or unresolved trauma. I don't think that "oh, you'll be much happier later because of what you're going through now" is a helpful thing to say to someone, nor do I necessarily think it's true. But that's probably not what you were talking about either. I do believe that I'm more able to appreciate and enjoy many things in life, due to hardships I've endured and resolved. I think that may be what you're talking about.

Hbdty!