Traveler

Having spent some time trying to talk with some liberal friends – I have concluded that it is unlikely that a contest between Trump and Biden will in anyway calm the troubled waters brewing politically in this country. If anything, I believe it will boil over. I doubt that we will reach November without open violence and an impossible political divide. I do not think either party has the means or desire to deal with the opposition that is building. Though I believe the Democrats to be the more wicked of the two; I am also convinced that the Republicans are more the buffoons that are clueless and unprepared. I wonder if the stupidity of the Republicans is somewhat by the design of their leadership. At this point, I cannot say I trust any political process. My hope is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I had hope of the religious community of America coming together but since that community still cannot (as a whole) accepts us as Christians – I am very concerned for how much longer G-d will protect this government. For now, I will support anyone or anything that can delay what seems to me to be inevitable. I believe the Democrats will not only win but will win by much more than the Republicans (and other conservatives) can possibly imagine. The Traveler

Just a note. With all the divisions within the Community of Christ it has been a surprise to me that few of those leaving have joined with us. And then even the few – it seems to have been the next generation to find itself joining with us. Perhaps it is the past bitterness. The individual I met with seemed to have a defeated presents – I would think somewhat like Moroni experiencing the end of the Nephits. I did feel that he was a good person expressing a sincere sorrow. Typical to my problems with little compassion I did tell him he has a home with us. His grace precedes mine with his thank you. The Traveler

It is not uncommon to give familiar names to places. I know of a few cities called Paris, London, Main, Portland and Bountiful just to name a few. I have given up attempting to determine the land of the Book of Mormon – thought I have thought to have figured it out a few times, only to realize problems with the narrative within the Book of Mormon. I have concluded that there are a number of places that Jesus most likely visited in the Americas – as well as several other places in this world. I believe that there is sufficient evidence to convince me of visitations to many places other than the Americas (including in India, Persia and Northern Japan). As a side note – does anyone know why Japan has a flag denoting the land of the rising sun? The Traveler

The Church is already the single largest owner of property in Missouri. There are two temples in Missouri. One in St Louis and one in Kansas City. There are several temples (24 – mentioned in your link) that will be built in Independence. My personal theory is that none of this will be built by the Latter-day Saints but will be either returned or constructed by the Saints of Enoch when they return as prophesied. I speculate this will be at the same time that Melchizedek returns with his Saints to restore the temple to what is now Jerusalem. The Traveler

It was never completed. The Traveler

Just a little bit of history – as I have experienced. In my college years I, with a few return missionary friends, embarked or a Church history vacation one summer. Our encounter with our religious LDS neighbors was bitter and disappointing and left a very bad taste in my mouth. In my youth, I blamed everything on who we called the Reorganites. Over the years this bitter relationship has softened. One of the doctrines that has sustained some bitterness has been our stand on the priesthood being exclusively for men. The Community of Christ currently has women apostles. There was some bitterness over blacks and the priesthood. Not so much concerning the blacks and the priesthood but the Community of Christ suffered a great division over women and the priesthood. They have never been solvent economically since that division. The LDS Church has financed the Community of Christ to maintain our common interest in historical properties. It was never sustainable – especially for the Community of Christ. A few years ago, my wife and I (with some local friends) again made a trip through Church History. My personal encounter with the Community of Christ was like meeting with beloved long separated family members. I spent a day with one of their general authorities (president of the 70’s). I was privileged to go with him through their private vault of artifacts accumulated form the beginning and dating back to the time we were not separated. With their new focus on “The Community of Christ”, he tearfully confessed to me that they did not have the resources to maintain the artifacts of history. It was not just the finances but the human resources as well. We openly discussed the possibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints carrying this baton to the finish line when the Messiah comes. The bitterness between our religious institutions seems to be the one factor no longer a concern. I am grateful that our brethren in Christ have carried this burden so well and nobly for so long. I am grateful that the properties will now be restored to what they need and ought to be – a treasure for the Saints to enjoy during the millennial reign. The Traveler

This thread is to highlight what posters are learning from their current study of the Book of Mormon. I will begin this with 1Nephi 5:16. Here Lehi learns that both he and Laban are direct decedents of Joseph. Thus, Laban inherited from his father the right to “keep” the records. As a direct descendent of Joseph Lehi was next in line to be a keeper of the convent – Nephi becomes the first son (most noble) and therefore the keeper of the covenant which explains why Nephi was instructed to behead Laban and take possession of the brass plates. This fulfills the prophesy that a remnant (righteous branch) of the house of Joseph will be broken off (See 2Nephi 3:5). The rest of chapter 3 prophesies that all this will commence the great work (from those that receive the Book of Mormon) in the last days to prepare for the Messiah. I understood that the Nephits carried the covenant of Joseph until their fall, but I never saw the symbolism of the beheading of Laban like unto the fall of the Nephits and the transfer of the covenant to Nephi symbolic to the transfer of the covenant to Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Traveler

There are two things that come to my mind. The first is that it is possible that there are individuals alive today that know where artifacts associated with the Book of Mormon are. They may even have access to them. However, if such is the case that knowledge is as carefully guarded as the artifacts themselves. The second I would relate to a spiritual manifestation I received as a youth concerning the divine origin of the Book of Mormon. For much of my life I have thought that experience to be sufficient testimony. More and more I am realizing that this sacred work (marvelous work and a wonder) is not an end in and of itself. That it is necessary to study and ponder the Book of Mormon to be spiritually ready for things happening currently in our day. Study and ponder does not mean to read and read hundreds of times. Our prophets have testified on many occasions that we need to (as individuals) carefully study and ponder the revelations and prophesies in the Book of Mormon – including the inclusions in the Book of Mormon from the great prophet Isaiah. Though there are many good people with good intensions is all the religions I have encountered – there is nothing on earth like or comparable to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No other society or individuals have greater access to divine purpose and calling than the Latter-day Saints. Key to our calling and mission as Saints in preparing for the coming Messiah is the Book of Mormon. We ought to and must become spiritual experts in the great secrets and revelations contained in the Book of Mormon as well as all our standard works and words spoken by our prophets. But the Book of Mormon is paramount. This year under the instructions of “Follow Me”, all the saints worldwide are encouraged to study, ponder and openly discuss with one another what we are gleaning in our study. In all honesty I do not believe that speculations of where artifacts are currently located is contributing to anything useful. The Traveler

After listening to what Putin had to say – I thought to look a little deeper into things. Of great concern to me was the Civil conflict (note that I did not call it the Civil War) In Ukraine in 2014. It looks that the then president of Ukraine was quite corrupt. He was cited as being a puppet of Putin, but he did not always go along with Moscow. Seems he liked some things about the West. However, he was not a good friend to the West. It seems to me that Ukraine was both politically corrupt and as in who should hold the reins of government as the USA currently is. It also looks like the West, primarily influenced by the USA gave strong support (lots of $$$ and perhaps arms) to the Nazi National Socialists (self-proclaimed Nazi, white supremacist) that were the most violent sector in the 2014 conflict. For many reasons this did not go well with Russia that took the most deaths in WWII at the hand of the Nazi Party in Germany. Since the civil conflict things have not been settled in Ukraine. It would be hard to say with conviction that Ukraine is a democracy. In addition, Ukraine is not known for dealing well with its own internal corruption. And whatever efforts were made internally to deal with corruption have a direct link to Biden family corruption and direct link to actions taken by President Biden – then vice President – to keep his son on the payroll for the corruption being investigated. NATO has not helped much with the problem with Ukraine in that nearly every treaty that NATO (USA) has made, has been deliberately and openly broken with Russia. The conclusion that I have come to is that Putin has as much right to violently be involved in the overthrow of the government of Ukraine as the USA and NATO does. Sadly, there are innocent Ukrainian citizens (especially women and children – the actual genetic kind) caught in the middle of this and not all of them support the current president of Ukraine. Most importantly – I am not pleased with our news service – including Fox News – for coverage of the whole matter. I honestly believe this current bloodshed could have been easily prevented – it seems to me that this current war is the result of either carful evil planning within our own government or possibly incredibly stupid policies from both political parties for at least a few decades. I do not know where to put my trust. The Traveler

Even the Democratic appointed justices agree that the Democratic Party is more of a threat to Democracy than the Republican Party when it comes to properly interpreting the law. This should be of great concern for those hard core members of the Democratic Party that cannot even consider voting republican – let alone going to lunch are being a friend to a MAGA Republican. But not to go overboard with embarrassment; stanch Republicans are seldom embarrassed when they politically come down hard of the wrong side of good sense and have trouble realizing that the USA really is intended to stand for the UNITED States of America. The Traveler

I have been pondering this thread and decided to post some more thought about spiritual influences. I avoided using the term visitations because I believe the connotation of the word visitation is misleading. I can only speak of my own experiences – realizing that there are differing spiritual gifts (Moroni 10) – it is possible to some do not recognize ministering of spirits. There are two distinct kinds of spirit influences. One being the influence of light and the other that of darkness. I believe it is extremely easy to decipher certain dark spirit influences of anger. Some may say “you make me angry” but I strongly believe anger only comes through the ministering of a dark spirit. I also believe that such influences are limited and that we as individuals must give ourselves over to anger before anger can be realized. We cannot be forced to be angry – only tempted, influenced or coerced. I believe in the subtle influences of spirit. Sometimes listed as whisperings. For me such influences come as distinct thoughts. I have learned to identify thoughts that are uniquely my own and thought beyond my understanding and abilities. Jesus talked of eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear. I believe he was spinking of spiritual influences and ministering. It is my experience that the subtle influences of a spirit of light are most difficult to recognize if someone is not loyal to their covenants. It is also my experience that anger is a unmistakable indication that someone is being influenced by a dark spirit. As a side note there is a poster on the forum ( @prisonchaplain ) that I have never seen influenced to anger. This is a strong witness to me of his devotion to be faithful to his promises and covenants to G-d. In the Book of Mormon, the brother of Jared, because of his faith, saw the finger of G-d during an occasion of spirit influence. This indicates to me that visual encounters are rare compared to strong spirits of light ministering. Preceding his first vision, young Joseph Smith encountered a powerful influence of a dark spirit the bound him and caused great fear. Yet, Joseph did not see what was binding him. My point is that we can be visited by spirits, both spirits of light as well as darkness and not see or hear anything with our physical eyes and ears. I do not think I can even count the times that I have felt the influence of a spiritual being in my presents, but only twice have I seen and heard anything with my physical eyes and ears. One such occasion was while I was in the Celestial room of a temple during the dedication of that temple. Many of us are worried about the influences of darkness in the world around and about us. My main purpose for this thread is to raise the awareness that there are more and greater influences of light on the side of those that see light during these last days before the return of the Messiah. If this is hard or difficult for anyone reading in that you are not experiencing comfort – I would suggest you recommit yourself (through behavior) to covenants of righteousness. The Traveler

I attended Roots Tech here in Salt Lake City and came away quite inspired. I have attended Roots Tech several times. Jimmer (BYU basketball star) was there, and I had a chance to chat with him and his wife. But that was not what inspired me. The main purpose of Roots Tech is to inspire making connection to our ancestral roots and providing records for our posterity. There are some things I do not talk much about. With the emphasis on ancestral roots and posterity I thought to open a discussion about angles. I have experienced the influence of angles. I feel somewhat restrained and would point out that it is not uncommon that such visits are for the purposes of correction rather than congratulations. My experiences are mostly centered on warnings. I am the name’s sake of my great grandfather that died shortly before I was born. There were a number of times I encountered the assistance of a guardian angel. On one particular occasion I inquired who it was. It was my great grandfather who’s name I carry. That particular occasion was the last time I encountered him. A few years later I encountered my brother that was lost to an accident a couple of months after completing his church mission. There are strong connections to families. As I understand, the influence of our family members in our lives that have proceeded us is quite common despite the possibility that their influence is or may be often unrealized – including not realizing that many such influences are family relatives. Sometimes our prayers are answered through various family relationships. So I will stand as a witness that we do live in an age of angles. I have often wondered if there are occasions where important encounters are with angles that we do not know other than a stranger we encounter during a time of need. I am inclined to believe that such encounters are not limited to member of the LDS Church. The Traveler

As I understand a conspiracy requires the basis of two elements of group intent – in essence, intent derived by two or more individuals. The first is an element of secrecy. The second is the element of unlawfulness or harmfulness. Both of these elements ought to be clear and without ambiguity. Keeping something secret does not require that the secret be directly hidden. Secret, in my opinion, includes lying or not divulging the entire truth of a matter. There is another element of misdirection that has many possibilities including gas lighting efforts to highlight or divert attention to something else. This element of misdirection is very popular in religious and political conspiracies. The second part of unlawfulness or harmfulness, though seemingly easy to define can become clouded. Especially attempting to determine what is harmful. When I was working for the Defense Department, I encountered a lot of classified information that seemed to have no other purpose beyond keeping the citizens in the dark about what was really going on. One could easily argue that no harm was intended and too much information would be confusing. Often when an error is discovered or committed by accident there is often and effort to correct or cover up the error to prevent unintended consequences. Very often the effort to coverup or misdirect is more harmfull than the initial action or intent. Perhaps it is possible that conspiracies are created to diminish the unlawfulness or harmfulness or to focus or channel minimize what one thinks is harmful. There have been some on this thread that use the notion or term denoting conspiracy theories. I am inclined to think that especially in religious and political circles – denoting something as a conspiracy theory is an odd characteristic in that without proof of what one is claiming to be theory (fantasy) without proof – the logic of label without proof is no different from what is being criticized. There is one last problem concerning what is proof verses evidence and who is allowed to stack the deck of proof and evidence. I do believe that under the law – individuals should be considered innocent until proven guilty. However, when it comes to any group keeping secrets – I believe that it is best to assume guilty (harmful intent) until innocence is proven or demonstrated. The Traveler

I understand that many are striving to do good things and I do not want to criticize any efforts, but the truth is that the only true and living coat tails capable of bringing soles (even their own) into heaven are those of Jesus Christ. The Traveler

I will add what I have come to believe to this thread – for what it is worth. I believe that the logic for one true and living church is no different from the logic used for the doctrine that there is only one true and living G-d. There are, in my mind, many misconceptions both in attempts to explain what is true and living as there is in understanding what is and what divergent thinkers say on the subject. Here is my effort. If there is a true a living G-d – that being is the supreme Suzerain of law and order, especially the law and order of the kingdom over which that being resides. Note that the term “Kingdom” is not my term, but the term used in scripture to describe that which G-d defines as his standard for his realm. I understand that we are flawed beings and therefore have flawed understanding of things. Especially things pertaining to G-d and his kingdom. It is my understanding that because we are flawed beings what happens between birth and death of any individual is not sufficient to understand or prepare for that which is eternal. This is a primary reason why I understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and temple work and worship to be the only true and living church on the earth. It is the only church doing work to redeem the dead and seal on earth that which will be sealed in Heaven. It is also the only church I have encountered that has a good grasp on why there must be a pre-earth life existence as there needs to be post-earth live existence to prepare for eternity (though some come somewhat close). There is one other principle in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I believe demonstrates why it is the only true and living expression of the true and living G-d on this earth and realm of fallen beings but that is another discussion that ties into this principle that I have already presented. Such that if one is doubtful of what has been described thus far – there is no logic to continue. The Traveler

We then agree that there was no failure in the plan. The all the events and outcome was exactly what G-d desired and intended – not the slightest variation from what was needed and had to be. I would like to hear your version. The Traveler

If I were to bet on the election – I would bet that the Democrats out smart the Republicans in the coming election – especially if the Republicans elect Trump. The argument that the world will end unless our party wins – always works much better for the Democrats (liberals) than it does for Republicans (conservatives). The Traveler

There has been a discussion about the military that I feel I should add to. I believe my opinion is much in line with captain Moroni. That the military of a free people has a basis of liberty and reflects the attitude of its citizens. I believe to be free a person must, out of responsibility and obligation – be prepared (out of strong desire to be free) to serve in the military. I believe the most effective and dangerous military is made up of free individuals that love their freedom more than their life (just like the song). Free people do not ever leave such things to others. I do not believe in the draft or a voluntary (mercenary) for the military. I believe military service is mandatory to freedom – that any desire to not serve is because love of liberty and country are missing from such citizens. I believe we have raised a generation of privilege selfish individual’s incapable of preserving liberty and freedom. I do not know how this happened – not even my children nor grandchildren desire to preserve freedom through military service. Even as I talk to the youth in the church – I see no propensity towards serving in the military with purpose. It is not worth their effort. Not for pay, going to college without debt or any other compensation – we have a generation that does not believe (with very few exceptions). Perhaps they have come to the conclusion that the government (both officials and citizens) care less about freedoms and liberty than they do??? The Traveler

Sorry for the delay. As I engage with Traditional Christians the conundrum concerning G-d that I encounter is that evil (Satan) outsmarts G-d and causes G-d to reconsider all his works (creation highlighted with the creation of man) and create a plan B. This especially arises in the interpretations of the symbolisms of the Eden epoch. That Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent, rebelled against G-d and were forced from Eden and for this crime mankind became fallen. The conundrum is that G-d and his creation plan failed despite his brilliant intelligence, ability to know the future, His love, compassion and mercy. I believe that all that transpired was according to G-d plan and that what resulted was exactly and preciously what G-d desired, wanted and intended to happen. In essence that G-d, because of his brilliant intelligence, love, compassion and mercy – wanted and intended that man (Adam, Eve and all mankind) obtain the knowledge of Good and Evil. That such knowledge was intended and why G-d created man – to have knowledge of Good and Evil the same as He did. There was no plan B. Eden and the fall was His plan from the beginning stated in the opening revelation of Genesis. It was evil and Satan that was outsmarted and forced into a plan B – Which will likewise fail. It is evil and Satan that should not be trusted. The purpose and design of evil will always fail in the light of G-d and his goodness – that never fails, is never surprised nor outsmarted – Ever!!! We can trust G-d’s plan because it has unfolded exactly as G-d designed it to and exactly as He wanted it to. There is no conundrum concerning G-d and never has been – only that Satan attempts to deceive – corrupting the truth and confuse the notion that G-d separates that which is light from that which is darkness. That what was begun in the beginning is ended in the what revelation calls the final judgement. The Traveler

To answer the question a best as I understand. In this mortal existence we have a physical body, but it only belongs to us in this mortal state. We get our physical body through a process that is completed at our birth - we lose it when we die. I believe there is something else that defines us – our spirit or ghost. We do not know much about our spirit, but I believe we can have a sense of it. It would appear that G-d also has a spirit. Even scripture speaks of the spirit of G-d. It is our spirit that contains all our uniqueness and defines us. I cannot say how much of our spirit are characteristics that are learned or what has always been or existed – I suspect both. Our will is one spirit characteristic I believe to have always existed. I speculate that there are other always existed characteristics. But as the scriptures say – we see such things though a glass darkly. I believe you are experiencing a conundrum concerning G-d. A conundrum that is ignored by most Traditional Christians (and many other religions) that Lucifer exploited to divide the kingdom of heaven that resulted in his (and those angles – a third part – that agreed with him) being exiled from the most advanced and intelligent society to exist, the kingdom of heaven. To understand this conundrum, we must turn to the scriptures and deal with the symbolism of the Eden epoch – in particular the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – and its fruit. Also, why a Messiah (Christ) is necessary to redeem sin and not just the individual that committed the sin to meet the demands of justice necessary to resolve sin. I will likely have difficulty posting for the next 3 weeks – so if there are delays responding – please be patient. The Traveler

We really are not that different in our beliefs. The question is where does our will come from? We both believe that our will is not a product of G-d. I will put this another way. Our individual uniqueness is a product of something G-d did not create. The question is why? I believe that our uniqueness (will) as an individual has always existed and cannot be created. In short it was something that existed before G-d’s creation and defines us after. That G-d created something for that uniqueness to act upon and become a being in the image and likeness of G-d. Of course, there is a lot more to this than what we have discussed but for the core or our discussion this is important to understand before diving deeper. I see this statement as somewhat problematic. To explain, let’s be a little more dramatic. Instead of using the example of your money let us use someone else's life. This should make the point a little clearer. - - -> If you know your sister will kill someone and you do nothing to stop that murder – you are culpable. Under our law (that I believe on this point your culpability is just) you are an accessory to the crime. It is my belief that there is a divine solution to this – but to get there, I believe we have to understand justice and what it demands. Again thanks for allowing me to express my concerns and understanding. I can suggest that you copy the text uxing the + sign. Then you can make several blank lines in your post and put the material copied with the + anywhere you want. There may be other ways - I am not 100% sure of your question. The Traveler

I believe that Jesus Christ (Jehovah) was exalted in the pre-existence (first estate). Several reasons – here are a few: The name or title of Jehovah implies exaltation as does the title “The Son” as a reference to one of three exalted entities of the G-dhead. We are also given understanding that the creation was carried out by G-d which is spoken of by John as the “Word”. Nephi gives witness of the condescension of G-d to come and walk among men to suffer even unto death to redeem mankind. The Traveler

First off, I do appreciate your opinion and attempts to answer. I am having trouble with your logic. Police did not create anyone’s ability to drive or speed. Obviously, G-d created many creatures, and no other creatures are condemned or rewarded by G-d for their choices – good or bad. The only way I can conclude that G-d is not responsible is if there was something over which both he did not create and does not control. Some may argue that G-d could create something that he did not control so he is not really responsible. But there is another factor in that G-d knows exactly what his creations will do and what the result is so the argument that He has no control over the results mute. The reason that I have difficulty accepting the standard Traditional Christian doctrine of G-d and creation is that the logic of faith in something that is not responsible for what they alone do and think it just makes no sense. I do not like or adhere to the arguments of modern apologist that claim that they are only what G-d made them to be. The argument would be valid and G-d responsible, if creation was from nothing. On the other hand, if each individual’s uniqueness is something that G-d does not control nor create – then and only then is G-d not responsible. I would add something after re-reading your quoted statement above. You say G-d did not create free will that chooses poorly because that would be predestination. How then is it possible thatd anyone chooses poorly? Why are some able to choose better than others? What was created to cause a difference? and by who?

In essence you would be waving a magic wand if you believe that G-d created everything from nothing – including the free will of man to choose between good and evil, and then judges man for choosing poorly. The magic wand would be that G-d creates some with free will to chose better than others – and yet G-d is not in any way responsible for creating individuals with a free will that chooses poorly. Like the person that says that 12 + 13 = 20 because if 12 + 13 = 25 they are stuck with an answer that does not fit their narrative. The Traveler