Traveler

Going to church and chanting various belief incantations no more make someone a believer in Christ than sleeping in a garage makes someone a Chevy (even if their snoring resembles a Harley.) The Traveler

Some ideas and a couple of thing I noticed missing from the list. First: the conquest of Charlemagne and the conversion of Europe to Christianity. Estimated to be more than the Bubonic Plague – half the population – this was also the “First Richt” that Hitler intended to emulate in his “Third Richt”. Interesting that this is not taught or referenced in most Western History publication – the winner of wars writes the history? Second: The purges of Stalin – some estimates are double the total of WWII. BTW Russia lost over a third of the total loses in WWII. Senses data has not been provided by the Russians. I would also add that the second largest volcano in the world is at the South Pole – It is young and active and the experts say an eruption is eminent (sometime in the next 500 years – now in geological terms). If this volcano has a major eruption it will melt the southern polar ice cap and raise the oceans, world wide from 12 to 20 feet which will displace 80% of the world’s population. This will be worse than most predicted models in the climate changed of global warming and potentially the worst natural disaster since the extension of the dinosaurs. Where is Al Gore when we really need him? I believe the point by Loudmouth_Mormon is that we ain’t seen noth’n yet. And I completely agree. We ain’t into serious Scriptural natural disasters of the Latter-Days – yet. The Traveler

I am not always sure that what is involved in a relationship with Christ is understood very well. Again is not about what someone gets but what they give. (see Matt 25:31-46) Having a personal relationship with Christ is having a personal relationship with those around us that me deal with everyday. Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of his brouthern - you have done it unto him. The Traveler

I would add one of my favorite non-scripture quotes from Gandhi and is best understood from the background of the quote. Gandhi was traveling and at a village where he stopped he was pressed to give a sermon. He refused and was pressed the more – to which her continued to refuse. Finely in desperation the people pleaded asking: “Have you nothing to say to us?” Gandhi then responded, “I am my sermon”. It is also said – “What you do thunders so loudly, I cannot hear a word you say”. It is good to be able to quote scripture - it is greater to live and be scripture. The Traveler

Wanderer: You and I are similar but at different points of journey. Tom has posted some useful things concerning values. A value is something you own. I would point you to observe one thing of G-d as something of value. That is -> What we tend to desire and get for ourselves feeds our selfishness and in reality is of little value (including salvation). When we labor to serve it feeds our concern and compassion of others and is of greatest value. In short: to get for one’s self – though attractive and alluring, is shallow and an illusion to give of one’s self – though less attractive and less alluring, is deep and of great substance and worth. G-d gives of himself and the only to know him and have faith in him is to give of one’s self. The Traveler

Iggy: I would like to talk to you about the grace and love of G-d towards you and your husband. Tithing is not a test or challenge as much as it is a means to blessing. I will start with a short story. While I was serving a mission (North Western States – USA) I came upon a boy in high school. He was very poor. His mother had died when he was small and his father was a hopeless and abusive alcoholic. He left home about two years before I met him. He lived in what was worse that a one room prison cell. He worked for minimum wage at a small family grocery store (owed by LDS members , not well to do – which is why I met him). He was only a junior in high school and had been on his own for 2 years. His cloths were all given to him or found in the garbage he was in every sense of the word struggling. He avoided the state because of abuses in foster care. This young man embraced the teaching of the LDS church but felt he could not covenant to pay tithing. In our discussion I asked a simple question. “Would you rather spend a dollar on your own or 90 cents with the L-rd’s help?” He decided to covenant with the L-rd for tithing. This young man was able to finish high school, pay for his mission, obtain graduate degrees and only received less than one year of financial assistance from anywhere (church and government). Now my point – do not attempt to burden yourself more than is necessary. G-d in his mercy does not even want such a thing. But decide now – today to covenant concerning tithing. Forget about your past, don’t at this time, attempt to make up your tithing for the whole year – just from now on. Should things change you may consider other things but understand G-d does not want your money. He wants your love and joy. Do not make tithing a burden (do not run faster than is necessary) but make tithing a covenant. You cannot make up for lost blessings. The time past has past and those blessings are lost but the greater blessings looking forward are before you. This is part of the principle of repentance and the atonement of Christ. You can repent of the past and covenant with G-d moving forward. You can from this moment pay your tithing and be a Saint in the house hold of G-d. It does not require that you change the past – just put it behind you. And I for one have been uplifted by your heart – your story is a joy to me. The Traveler

Tithing is more a spiritual principle of devotion to G-d than it is a monetary sacrifice. The wonderful thing I love about tithing is that your humble mother-in-law is as able to demonstrate her love and obedience to G-d in her tithing as is a billionaire is with their enormous donations. In the Gospel of Christ not only are we allowed to serve according to our desire but we can also be served according to our need. The Traveler

One common mistake in the debates of works and grace is the understanding of covenants. I will try to assist 1. There are no works acceptable to G-d that is outside of the covenants one has made with G-d. 2. It is by the grace of G-d that covenants are offered to man from G-d. It is true that all things come through the grace of G-d but it is also very important to note that the scriptures have always upheld the necessity of remaining loyal to G-d through obedience to sacred covenants. It is only by covenant that one loves G-d with all their heart, might, mind and strength. Those that break their covenants by lending their heart, might, mind and strength to deeds contrary to covenants have broken the covenant bond that G-d established through his grace – thereby denying both G-d and his grace. May I state the concept in another way – It is not enough to claim belief in G-d and be passive to his covenants. To be a believer one must covenant with G-d and become free by loyally submitting to G-d’s direction and doing as he has commanded (John 8:31-32 The Traveler

All temple covenants are the same and have not changed - I am thinking at least 1967. I regret that you lack understanding of covenants, especially the sacred covenants of the temple that comprise the endowment. Some of the temple symbols have been misused by those that have disrespect and contempt for such sacred things – I personal find it comforting that G-d has inspired that certain symbols be characterized differently to give greater and deeper understanding of truth to those that seek righteousness and to avoid confusion from the intent of conspiring and evil influences determined to lead astray those that are not serious about keeping their sacred covenants and that seek to create confusion and doubt among those that are trying to keep their sacred covenants. (I am now thinking Matt 7:15-17) The Traveler

Tithing is not about money though many think it so. I cannot express to this forum how the windows have been open and what great things have been and that I have been part. My wife and I were once trying to figure out our tithing through a business that had lost money and another that was doing very well. Though the government allows deduction we decided to have a different attitude with tithing. Some say tithing is on our increase - how then, do we tithe our health, our friends, our children and grand children and those that serve us as well as those we serve. I am glad and rejoice in the opportunity to give back a little. Even if I never recieved any good thing ever again I could not repay the blessings that have already fallen all around me. I believe that a person is that loves the L-rd will with joy and gladness give tithes and offerings - even if it is their last penny. I can understand difficulty - we all experience such things but what I do not understand is someone that does not believe, love or trust the L-rd to offer what-ever they can in tithes and offerings. The Traveler

May I add to your beautiful thought. It is not just living by his covenants and commandments but finding the greatest joy and happiness possible in so living. I am convinced that the degree one believes in G-d they will be an example of what it is to believe in G-d. I have wondered if some were to stand trail for believing in G-d if there would be enough evidence to convict them? (espically when they point to others to declair them as non-bleievers to creat a standard) The Traveler

I am saddened when some define heaven around them - what they will get and what will be done for them. So let me put this another way. I believe that if you are expecting what G-d will do for you - I think you will be greatly disapointed - I do not think heaven is about you and what you will get. I do not think heaven is about what G-d does for you - I believe heaven is all about what you will do for others. but as I have said many time - I believe we will all be very happy in the heaven of our choice. If we expect everything to be given to us or if we expect to give all to others. The Traveler

In case I quote them wrong I will let the forum look them up: OT - Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 NT - 1Cor chapter 13 - the entire chapter BofM 1Nephi 1:1-3 This is a perfect example of an ancient Egyptian poetic form placed at the beginning of a document common at the time of Lehi that was not known in modern times until over 100 years after Joseph Smith. It is both a witness and testimony that could have only be explained through the divinity of the Book of Mormon The Traveler

I think there may be much more - Tell me what you think after you research Aaron and his staff. I believe the staff is prophetic and symbolic of Christ. and another Bible question - how does one male Bible scholar tell another male Bible scholar that they are unziped? --- they make the reference Isaiah 6:5 The Traveler

In the thread Forever and Ever a statement is implied about the temple endowment. Because of the sacredness of the endowment specifics should not be discussed – I understand that many ignorant and antagonizing elements intend to take this to their advantage. This is a most unfortunate misunderstanding concerning covenants. Without going into specific details I will point out for those that may have been mislead or deceived. There has been no covenantal change to any of the 5 covenants concerning the temple endowment. The Traveler

It would appear from the post that follow that it is still not understood how covenants, laws, commandments and ordinances are linked. I am convinced that covenants are not well understood – even among LDS. I would point out that a law is worthless without covenant. The Traveler

Why Aaron's staff? - was there reasons or coinsidence? (according to the Jews)The Traveler

This thread is intended to be introspective not a means of accusation. For this reason I would first like to set the stage with reference to the Gospel of John and the exchange between Jesus and the Scribes and Pharisees. In this exchange the Scribes and Pharisees claim to believe in the G-d of Abraham. They claim to have a personal relationship with G-d. They claim that their society and culture was formed around 2,000 years of unparalleled tradition dictated by the mouth of G-d in their sacred scriptures. In essence the Scribes and Pharisees claim to have all the correct elements and claim that their belief in G-d is without question genuine. In response Jesus tells them that if they believe in the G-d of Abraham that they would do the will of G-d as Abraham did. I read this to say if someone is a believer in G-d that they are not like other people. They are different. So I ask the question – How has your belief in G-d made you different? Are you different in the manner of the Scribes and Pharisees or are you different in the manner that Jesus was different? The Traveler

Many people are confused with a great number of ancient things that pertain to “Kingdoms”. In our modern society we struggle with the concepts of a Kingdom. We need to tie all things together. This is done by a understanding of a kingdom and the covenants and laws associated with the citizens. The center is the covenant. With each covenant there are one or more laws. With each law there is one or more commandments. For example the law of tithing and the law of the Sabbath are both associated with the covenant of Baptism. A commandment to attend church on the Sabbath is part of the Law of the Sabbath. With each covenant there is also an ordinance, the laws of the covenant, the commandments of the law, the promise (The blessings that are given by obedience to the law or laws of the covenant) and a warning (that will occur if the laws and commandments are not obeyed). Some important lessons to be learned by history and by the ancient scriptures that have come to us as the Bible and the Book of Mormon: To covenant there must be a proctor that stands as proxy for the Suzerain of the Kingdom – for the kingdom the Suzerain is G-d (Jesus Christ) and the Proctor is a Priesthood holder authorized by the Suzerain within the structure of the Kingdom.A covenant is considered broken if the laws of the covenant are broken or if the covenant is made through an unauthorized proxy. Both are acts of sedition and treason against both the kingdom and the Suzerain. The general understood punishment for breaking the covenant of membership to a kingdom was both loss of sight and hearing. Anciently eyes would be burned out (as was Sampson) and/or the ears cut off and hearing destroyed. The statement “he who has eyes to see and ears to hear” is a direct reference to those loyal to covenant laws.Only by covenant and obedience to the covenants of G-d can fallen man have spiritual eyes to see and understand the things of the Kingdom. Though we debate scripture it is not necessary. Only those that by covenant seek the kingdom will be given power to understand. It is the obligation of the proxy servant of G-d to speak with his name and those that are the “sheep” of G-d will respond. The charge of a proxy is not to convince or settle arguments – only to act as a source of light for those seeking such light.The Traveler

Two points - first about a seer stone and mormon myths. For someone to be a seer they must by covenant have access to a seer stone. All of the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 are seers - which means they all have access to a seer stone. Concerning the stone box that contained the Book of Mormon. According to the covenants given anciently the sacred records of the Nephits (house of Joseph through Ephraim) and the Jews (house of Israel through Judah) are joined. See Ezekiel 37 pay particular attention to verses 20 - 22. The Traveler

What a person believes is so interesting. I do not think it possible to believe in what you cannot understand. Let me give and example. Many think they believe in good management of money and understand the principle of interest. How do we know when someone is telling the truth when they say they believe in good management of money and understand the principle of interest? Simple, if they pay or recieve interest. That is why I made the above list. I believe it was Gandhi that once said that those that believe in Jesus are truly wonderful people – and someday I would like to meet one. Me too. The Traveler

Those I think will enjoy living with G-d Those that are working to make progress to conform to G-d’s will.Those that continue to seek truth.Those that feel badly about their sins and even though they know Jesus suffered and died for their sins as well as for all sins they are ashamed enough of their sins to stop doing them.Those that when they hear the word of Jesus say, “Not every one that says L-rd, L-rd will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Ask their L-rd with a broken heart and contrite spirit (as did the Apostles) – “L-rd is it I?”Those that love and care about others (especially non-believers) and every night plead with tears to G-d to have mercy on them – then all day long they do kind deeds (often rejected) and say kind words of encouragement. Those I think may think they would enjoy G-d but error in their thinking. Those that are not really making an effort to conform to G-d’s will.Those that have found all the truth they need.Those that think they are believers but have a few favorite sins they think do not really matter – they think the grace of G-d should be enough for them but they are sure they know of others whose sins are not covered by G-d’s grace.Those that when they hear the word of Jesus say, “Not every one that says L-rd, L-rd will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Interpret the scriptures so they can blame someone else for falling short for what-ever reason but think the L-rd would never address them in such a manner (As did the Scribes and Pharisees) .Are so caught up with themselves for being a believer. They really do not care about others (especially non-believers) any more than to tell them they are going to hell. In their heart they are glad the others are going to hell and that they can live through eternity without them around.Perhaps there is more but hopefully the point has been made. The Traveler

I learned all the principles from my father but I have several copies of this book. When people ask me for help I require that they read the book first then I sit down with them and make a plan - then we discuss any money help. The Traveler

I see this as nothing more than a game of words. How can anyone say they accept Jesus and not his commandments - and how can they say they accept his commandments and break them?Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer. You can play any word game you like but his greace is enough for anyone at anytime that desires to be with G-d in heaven. I stand by what I have said both in saying it and helping anyone regardless of who had turned them away or for what. Nothing is impossible to G-d and it is never too late - there is a "way". But if you do not want to be with those of us that have errored (what ever the error - including denying G-d) but yet now desire his grace having experienced your sin - that is your choice and I will not fault you for making it public. But it does not chang my resolve. Thanks anyway The Traveler

Where does the Bible talk about Baseball ----- In the Big Inning Where does the Bible talk about tennis -------- Where David served in Saul’s court. Where does the Bible talk about cigarettes ---- Where Rachael lit off a Camel. Who in the Bible had a motorcycle -------- Isaiah – the roar of his triumph could be heard through out the land (I have a neighbor like that) According to the Bible, what stretches more skin or rubber – never mind I will skip this one. Where in the Bible does it tell us there will be no women in heaven? -- Revelation 8:1 And now the question for the experts and extra credit. Tells us the Babylonian name of Daniel or the Hebrew names (not the common Babylonian names) of his three friends thrown into the furnace. And one from the Book of Mormon – Name the 4 sons of Mosiah. (without looking it up) The Traveler