Hemidakota Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 Meridian Magazine :: Myth of the Month: Coming Home in a Pine BoxSnippet...Marion G. Romney reported that his father said the following to him just as he was boarding the train to go on a mission:My son, you are going a long way from home. Your mother and I, and your brothers and sisters, will be with you constantly in our thoughts and prayers; we shall rejoice with you in your successes, and we shall sorrow with you in your disappointments. When you are released and return, we shall be glad to greet you and welcome you back into the family circle. But remember this, my son: we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue.
WillowTheWhisp Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 Hmmmm ........... I think that sounds too much like the Islamic idea of honour for me. I would rather have a live child who could repent and then live a long and happy life.
skalenfehl Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 People also had a different work ethic and sense of honor. Even in biblical times and today among the far eastern cultures. A man's word is his bond and when broken is worthless as is the person. Remember when Nephi gave Zoram his word? A man's word is his life. It is all about honor. This is why Zoram then trusted Nephi and went with him to the new world. There's a whole other discussion there, though.
VisionOfLehi Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 Wow! Honor, yes! But what about repentance and the Atonement? I'd rather my (future) kid come back home "dishonorably" than dead.
Traveler Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 I find this most interesting but I think a point would be lost. I think the real question is - if there is anything more important than staying alive? Is it more important to stay alive than to find truth, or to maintain your belief in G-d, or family, or democracy, or as this thread implies is it more important to stay alive than to keep your honor and virtue.If I am ever to stand for something – I would hope that I could stand with those that value some of the things I have mentioned; more than life itself and these I would trust honor and stand by – even unto death. I am not sure what I would do for someone that puts themself first.The Traveler
WANDERER Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 A concept of what is heroic or valiant sometimes differs. What is honor and what is honourable? I think one should put value on your life and not sacrifice it needlessly. It does no honour to anyone, least of all God if you cannot apply forgiveness to yourself or others or accept attonement and redemption. You can find your way back. It's best not to have to do that, cause it's not an easy path. But the point is, we all have fallen short and it's rather prideful to think that we have not. The ultimate sacrifice has already been given...your life cannot do that for yourself or for anyone else. Be heroic enough to live with the consequences of your decisions. You cannot run away from sin. However, sometimes you have to step and be a hero...if you're ever in that situation...the plan should always be to save as much life as possible including your own. Treating God's gift of life lightly is a sin.
Guest HEthePrimate Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 Hmmm... interesting topic. While I do believe there are things more important than staying alive (don't know why, but jumping in front of a bus to push a child out of its path springs to mind!), on the other hand, such a decision is very personal. I don't think I could bring myself to say to another person "I'd rather have you come back in a pine box than come back unclean" because it seems like placing too large a burden on them, and possibly making them feel like I don't care about them. Besides, did Heavenly Father say that to us when we departed for mortality? If so, precious few of us are following His instructions, and if everybody did, this planet would be uninhabited! HE the Primate
MrNirom Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 I think his father said to him what God has said to all of us. He doesn't tell us to "shoot" for one of the lower kingdoms. NO.. he is always telling us to strive for the ultimate gift...Eternal Life. And he repeats it over and over again. Romney is not saying to he would rather have his son dead.. He is saying he would rather have the hurt and paid of him being dead... rather than the hurt and pain of him losing his virtue, disobeying God's commandments, and coming home unclean. To spoil that innocence on some woman in the mission field rather than saving it for his wife in a temple marriage. He is just challenging him to higher goal.
VisionOfLehi Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 He can come home unclean but REPENT and RENEW his covenants and be completely FORGIVEN. Would you not want your child alive and able to repent, and spend more time in this mortal probation learning and progressing? And there are other ways to lose your virtue than with a girl, when on your mission. See the recent missionaries vs. Catholic statues incident.
skalenfehl Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 Besides, did Heavenly Father say that to us when we departed for mortality?Very likely not. We have, however, been told in the scriptures that Christ will say to some, "I know thee not" when we profess that we preached in His name." Food for thought.
Moksha Posted June 4, 2008 Report Posted June 4, 2008 Hmmmm ........... I think that sounds too much like the Islamic idea of honour for me. Sounds more Klingon to me. Bau K'Plautk!
Traveler Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 I believe the message concerning G-d to his human creations is to not come home unclean. I realize that there is repentance and forgiveness but the message is clear - no unclean thing is allowed in the presents of G-d. Repentance must be done before returning - not after.We all live and we will all die - my point is that if our life is meaningless then death will not offer anything new - this is not contrary to religion or good sense. One cannot live with meaning unless they are willing to die for something worth while.I think a principle is ignored. So I ask - what is the point of living without honor? One might say that there is still time to repent and live with honor. That is a most interesting thought that requires that a person change their reason for living if living was the trade off for honor.This begs another question – has someone in truth repented without facing a trial of the repented sin?The Traveler
Heather Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 I remember that line being used in God's Army 2. It made me sick when I heard it. Thanks so much for sharing that article.
pam Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 Years ago I remember hearing a talk from one of the Prophets who also stated...I would rather see my child lose her life than break the law of chastity. I wish I could remember who said that. I think the point he was trying to make was how sacred our chastity is and that we need to remain pure. I am like any other parent. I would rather see my child alive and allowed to go through the repentence process.
skalenfehl Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 We all see things from a limited and finite perspective. Many people mourn for departed loved ones because they think they might never see them again. On the flip side of the coin God has called people home, presumably to carry on His work in the Spirit World, or because they really were too good for this world and fulfilled their measure of creation simply by being born and gaining a body. I believe that is why sometimes people die prematurely in youth or infancy. Our minds are not God's mind and our purposes are not God's purposes. I truly believe the other side is so much more glorious, even in Paradise and for us to be plucked from mortality to return to God who gave us life might well be considered a grand privilege. My young brother in law, who died tragically in a vehicular accident left behind a young wife (my sister) and three very small children (one still on the way at the time). Obviously the Lord knew that my sister would be ok and that her children would do just fine. It's a struggle for her, but I've seen her grow strong as a result. Meanwhile, my brother in law is fulfilling his duties, whatever they may be, on the other side and has gained his reward and will see my sister and his children again one day. Just my two cents. On a side note I also saw God's Army 2 and was extremely disappointed.
Traveler Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 As I travel through life I would rather travel with someone intent and focused on returning with honor. Perhaps we should ask this question another way. If you could chose - would you trust you daughter with a young man that valued himself above your daughter’s chastity or with a young man that valued the chastity of your daughter more than their own life? Why is honor so hard to come by in today’s world of politics, religion and education? Perhaps in this generation it is not worth the bother.The Traveler
Snow Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 Meridian Magazine :: Myth of the Month: Coming Home in a Pine BoxSnippet...I hadn't seen that before but Elder Spencer Kimball said the same type of thing in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness,It's a horrible thought and completely unhelpful, and, in my opinion, out of step with the gospel of repentance and forgiveness.
Moksha Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 I hadn't seen that before but Elder Spencer Kimball said the same type of thing in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness,It's a horrible thought and completely unhelpful, and, in my opinion, out of step with the gospel of repentance and forgiveness. Wan't that something about it being better to die when being raped or something like that?
Snow Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 Wan't that something about it being better to die when being raped or something like that?The statement was that we'd rather see our sons or daughters coming home in or on their bier rather than sullied by immorality. A bier is a casket or the stand upon which a corpse or casket is placed.
WANDERER Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 The rest of what Romney had to say about it: I pondered that statement at the time. I did not then have the full understanding of it that my father had, but I have never forgotten it. I can think of no blessings to be more fervently desired than those promised to the pure and the virtuous. Jesus spoke of specific rewards for different virtues but reserved the greatest, so it seems to me, for the pure in heart, "for they," said he, "shall see God" (Matthew 5:8). And not only shall they see the Lord, but they shall feel at home in his presence. Here is his promise--the Savior's promise: "Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God" (D&C 121:45). (Marion G. Romney, "Trust in the Lord," Ensign, May 1979, p. 40.)
Justice Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 I think the father was teaching his son a very important life lesson.Circumstances are everything when you consider quotes such as this. It's not like the father's son was going off to college. He was sending his son away for (presumably) 2 years to serve the Lord. The father was telling him to have his mind focused and stay sharp, in a very impressionable manner.To whom much is given, much is expected. For a young man given the priveledge of serving the Lord for 2 years, his father was holding him to a high standard.There are quotes in the scriptures similar to this.Alma 39: 3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel. 4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.It's a big sin, yes, but to a missionary? It's even bigger.
Guest Username-Removed Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 I dont think sin is worse than death. Otherwise, why would we be here in the first place? We all sin, if we say that we dont we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
lilered Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 From Genesis 39: Joseph, prospered by the Lord, becomes ruler of Potiphar’s house—He resists the advances of Potiphar’s wife, is falsely accused, and cast into prison—Keeper of the prison commits its affairs into Joseph’s hands. 1 And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and aPotiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hands of the bIshmeelites, which had brought him down thither. 2 And the aLord was with bJoseph, and he was a prosperous man; and he was in the house of his master the Egyptian. 3 And his master saw that the Lord was with him, and that the Lord made all that he did to aprosper in his hand. 4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand. 5 And it came to pass from the time that he had made him overseer in his house, and over all that he had, that the Lord blessed the Egyptian’s house for Joseph’s asake; and the blessing of the Lord was upon all that he had in the house, and in the field. 6 And he left all that he had in Joseph’s hand; and he knew not ought he had, save the bread which he did eat. And Joseph was a agoodly person, and well bfavoured. 7 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that his master’s wife cast her aeyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me. 8 But he arefused, and said unto his master’s wife, Behold, my master bwotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath ccommitted all that he hath to my hand; 9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great awickedness, and bsin against God? 10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph aday by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her. 11 And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within. 12 And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and afled, and got him out. 13 And it came to pass, when she saw that he had left his garment in her hand, and was fled forth, 14 That she called unto the men of her house, and spake unto them, saying, See, he hath brought in an Hebrew unto us to mock us; he came in unto me to lie with me, and I cried with a loud voice: 15 And it came to pass, when he heard that I lifted up my voice and cried, that he left his garment with me, and fled, and got him out. 16 And she laid up his garment by her, until his lord came home. 17 And she spake unto him according to these words, saying, The Hebrew servant, which thou hast brought unto us, came in unto me to mock me: 18 And it came to pass, as I lifted up my voice and cried, that he left his garment with me, and fled out. 19 And it came to pass, when his master heard the words of his wife, which she spake unto him, saying, After this manner did thy servant to me; that his wrath was kindled. 20 And Joseph’s master took him, and put him into the aprison, a place where the king’s prisoners were bound: and he was there in the prison. 21 ¶ But the aLord was with Joseph, and shewed him mercy, and gave him favour in the sight of the keeper of the prison. 22 And the keeper of the prison committed to Joseph’s hand all the prisoners that were in the prison; and whatsoever they did there, he was the adoer of it. 23 The keeper of the prison looked not to any thing that was under his hand; because the Lord was with him, and that which he did, the Lord made it to aprosper. St. Marks 9: 43 aAnd if thy hand offend thee, bcut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into chell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot aoffend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their aworm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be asalted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have apeace one with another.
Hemidakota Posted June 5, 2008 Author Report Posted June 5, 2008 I believe the message concerning G-d to his human creations is to not come home unclean. I realize that there is repentance and forgiveness but the message is clear - no unclean thing is allowed in the presents of G-d. Repentance must be done before returning - not after.We all live and we will all die - my point is that if our life is meaningless then death will not offer anything new - this is not contrary to religion or good sense. One cannot live with meaning unless they are willing to die for something worth while.I think a principle is ignored. So I ask - what is the point of living without honor? One might say that there is still time to repent and live with honor. That is a most interesting thought that requires that a person change their reason for living if living was the trade off for honor.This begs another question – has someone in truth repented without facing a trial of the repented sin?The TravelerThere are always two character traits when I close my talks in a Sacrament meeting, when speaking to the military, a person most hold as a core values: Honor and Integrity.
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