Coming Home in a Pine Box - Is Sin worse than Death?

[Guest Username-Removed]

one of my favorite quotes is from a good military friend is ....

"Brotherhood above all else, except honor"

[WANDERER]

For something that was said to him in 1922 to reoccur in his conversation he must have given it a lot of thought as he mentions it again in 1979 in the above quote. I am thinking that it was on his mind a bit. Perhaps at different stages of his life he understood what his dad said in different ways, according to where he was at.

[Moksha]

So is the call for death before dishonor a denial of the atonement?

[Hemidakota]

Depending on the person's Spiritual Maturity....

[MorningStar]

I don't know if they really meant that, but I know as a parent, my biggest worry is my kids' spiritual happiness. I worry a lot about their safety too, but I want them to have eternal life more than anything and I don't want them to suffer terrible consequences. We can be forgiven, but the consequences remain.

[Guest User-Removed]

I hadn't seen that before but Elder Spencer Kimball said the same type of thing in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness,

It's a horrible thought and completely unhelpful, and, in my opinion, out of step with the gospel of repentance and forgiveness.

And you were called to the Quorum of the 12 ....when????

While MOF can be a terribly depressing book to read...it is nonetheless uplifting and liberating knowing that through the Atonement we can be forgiven...

But then again...nothing like taking a swipe at a late Prophet, Seer and Revelator of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...

[Guest User-Removed]

I think the father was teaching his son a very important life lesson.

Circumstances are everything when you consider quotes such as this. It's not like the father's son was going off to college. He was sending his son away for (presumably) 2 years to serve the Lord. The father was telling him to have his mind focused and stay sharp, in a very impressionable manner.

To whom much is given, much is expected. For a young man given the priveledge of serving the Lord for 2 years, his father was holding him to a high standard.

There are quotes in the scriptures similar to this.

Alma 39:

3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.

It's a big sin, yes, but to a missionary? It's even bigger.

AMEN and AMEN...Justice...It's refreshing to see someone who gets it!!!!

[Snow]

issue moved to general discussion

[Guest lauracooke78]

I myself take it literally. I would rather die than break the law of chastity. I would rather my children or I choose the death penalty at the hands of assasins, then to claim our own life back by commiting that sin. We could choose to do a lot of things to keep our physical life, at the expense of our spiritual and eternal life during this earthly existence. In another translation of that first story... I would rather my child commit social suicide before giving in to the temptations of the day and bring himself unclean (morally/virtue) before the Lord at any point in his life.

And just for Snow, there was nothing (of their behaviour) that went against repentance and forgiveness that the Anti-Lehi-Nephites did in laying down their weapons, or that any of God's prophets did when they were martyred. We must stand up for the truth even if it means to give our own life. We covenant to do that in the temple. I will never deny the truth or God or my testimony to save my own life, if it came to that. If I did, after I did it I would rather lay down in a pit and die of shame before God. One does not have disregard for God's law of repentance/forgiveness or the sanctity of life if they lay down their life for a friend/family member or the truth, if there is no other way.

[Snow]

I myself take it literally. I would rather die than break the law of chastity. I would rather my children or I choose the death penalty at the hands of assasins, then to claim our own life back by commiting that sin.

...shaking my head in disbelief.

I just can't imagine having this conversation with any of my children"

Suzie, you've been such a special daughter, I am so proud of how you have matured into a wonderful young lady. As you prepare to off to college, please keep this thought in mind: I'd rather that you were murdered and dead rather than see you be unchaste.

Yes, yes, I know the Lord said, "he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more," but if if the Lord does forget and forgive, I cannot so it's better you were simply dead.

Enjoy you stay at college.

As it so happens, I love my children very very much and would continue to love them - and not wish them dead - even if they sinned. If God can forgive and forget, I can certainly try to do the same. I hope that at some point you will have children and have the same type of love for them too.

[Guest User-Removed]

I myself take it literally. I would rather die than break the law of chastity. I would rather my children or I choose the death penalty at the hands of assasins, then to claim our own life back by commiting that sin. We could choose to do a lot of things to keep our physical life, at the expense of our spiritual and eternal life during this earthly existence. In another translation of that first story... I would rather my child commit social suicide before giving in to the temptations of the day and bring himself unclean (morally/virtue) before the Lord at any point in his life.

And just for Snow, there was nothing (of their behaviour) that went against repentance and forgiveness that the Anti-Lehi-Nephites did in laying down their weapons, or that any of God's prophets did when they were martyred. We must stand up for the truth even if it means to give our own life. We covenant to do that in the temple. I will never deny the truth or God or my testimony to save my own life, if it came to that. If I did, after I did it I would rather lay down in a pit and die of shame before God. One does not have disregard for God's law of repentance/forgiveness or the sanctity of life if they lay down their life for a friend/family member or the truth, if there is no other way.

Laura...You go girl...you have the spirit of discerment to know that what was spoken of by President Romney's Father was metaphorical...Yet the object lesson is still there.

[Guest lauracooke78]

...shaking my head in disbelief.

I just can't imagine having this conversation with any of my children"

Suzie, you've been such a special daughter, I am so proud of how you have matured into a wonderful young lady. As you prepare to off to college, please keep this thought in mind: I'd rather that you were murdered and dead rather than see you be unchaste.

Yes, yes, I know the Lord said, "he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more," but if if the Lord does forget and forgive, I cannot so it's better you were simply dead.

Enjoy you stay at college.

As it so happens, I love my children very very much and would continue to love them - and not wish them dead - even if they sinned. If God can forgive and forget, I can certainly try to do the same. I hope that at some point you will have children and have the same type of love for them too.

That is where you mistake when I would teach my children about standing up for truth. And that is where you made the mistake thinking I have no children. I have four and we have taught them from birth about being a perculiar people, who stand alone in this world. We have taught our children from day one about every law of God and especially the law of chastity. I would rather my children be killed then for them to give an attacker their virtue for their life, period. We value our virtue higher than our physical life, because our virtue is linked to our eternal destiny. Yes, God will forgive, but in his forgiveness of that terrible sin, does that mean my earthly children will still achieve eternal glory? Forgiveness means one has accepted Jesus as their savior and repented, it does not mean they receive celestial glory. So you can shake you head all you want Snow, it matters not to me.

It is better not to sin that terrible sin, than to do it and then have to repent. For the anguish of spiritual death far outweighs that of physical separation that happens at death. I find your tone to be very judgemental of who I am. I never said I would not forgive my children. There is a difference between forgiving your children vs watching them and feeling their pain if they had to repent.

[WillowTheWhisp]

And you were called to the Quorum of the 12 ....when????

While MOF can be a terribly depressing book to read...it is nonetheless uplifting and liberating knowing that through the Atonement we can be forgiven...

But then again...nothing like taking a swipe at a late Prophet, Seer and Revelator of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...

But isn't that exactly the point? MOF is talking about repentance and forgiveness which is what the Atonement is all about. Jesus didn't say don't come to me having sinned, I would rather you were dead than repent and ask forgiveness.

[Guest lauracooke78]

But isn't that exactly the point? MOF is talking about repentance and forgiveness which is what the Atonement is all about. Jesus didn't say don't come to me having sinned, I would rather you were dead than repent and ask forgiveness.

Yes, Christ is saying, "come unto me and I will give you rest.".. But for those who have not commited adultery/fornication, he is not saying..." oh go and do it, you'll be fine... and you can always come and be forgiven." In most cases people choose very freely to break this law. I am talking of cases where your life is threatened, which is not so common as those who practice free love. Christ would much much much rather us not commit these terrible sins that scar us and for generations after us. He would rather us avoid them like the plague.

As for my post above.. a little more clarification so no one gets the wrong message about what I mean. With the whole repentance/forgiveness thing... if we commit a very grave sin like breaking the law of chastity, then repent.... it depends on the circumstances of the sin being committed and when the repentance happens as to what we receive for our eternal reward... I believe an attitude that I can commit this now thinking I can repent and receive celestial glory is a very arrogant attitude and one I would not teach my children.

[WANDERER]

So is it really acceptable to tell your kids to kill themselves? If they're going to interpret it 'exactly', will they do exactly what they're told should they fail to live up to and honour parental expectations.

Or do you mean that should it come to a choice of having their life threatened for what they believe in and value, then they should stand true to their faith?

I'm confused about what exactly the message is that children are being given.

[Guest lauracooke78]

So is it really acceptable to tell your kids to kill themselves? If they're going to interpret it 'exactly', will they do exactly what they're told should they fail to live up to and honour parental expectations.

Or do you mean that should it come to a choice of having their life threatened for what they believe in and value, then they should stand true to their faith?

I'm confused about what exactly the message is that children are being given.

According to what I believe - your second idea is what I believe, not the first. Here it is again.

1. If my life was threatened and I had the choice of saving it by commiting that sin, then I would rather be killed. That is what we teach our children.

2. I would rather my children commit social suicide (ie have no friends in this world, because his/her family will always love them no matter what) than to give in to the pressures of today and commit that sin.

3. No where have I said "kill themselves". That is commiting a worse sin. Avoid it (sexual sin) like the plague. It is a choice you know.

[WANDERER]

Outside of sexual sin would that still hold true for other sins:

i.e. to be asked to assist in theft...bundling up the cash. To be asked to lie: everything is okay on the phone to the police after an alarm has sounded.

Or is it specific?

[Guest User-Removed]

But isn't that exactly the point? MOF is talking about repentance and forgiveness which is what the Atonement is all about. Jesus didn't say don't come to me having sinned, I would rather you were dead than repent and ask forgiveness.

I'm curious...on another thread didn't you say you left the Church cause people in your ward wouldn't sit next to you???....Mind you, I might have you confused with someone else from the UK...but I find it fascinating, you leave the Church cause you gfelt snubbed by fellow ward members...but you seem to have tons of time to slag the Church here....and I suspect elsewhere...

What's that saying..."You can leave the Church...You just can't leave the Church alone"???

[Snow]

I'm curious...on another thread didn't you say you left the Church cause people in your ward wouldn't sit next to you???....Mind you, I might have you confused with someone else from the UK...but I find it fascinating, you leave the Church cause you gfelt snubbed by fellow ward members...but you seem to have tons of time to slag the Church here....and I suspect elsewhere...

What's that saying..."You can leave the Church...You just can't leave the Church alone"???

The poster is talking about the atonement and forgiveness.

Maybe you could drop the personal insults and respond to her post.

[Guest User-Removed]

The poster is talking about the atonement and forgiveness.

Maybe you could drop the personal insults and respond to her post.

WOW...snow...for one who has repeatedly personally attacked many in here, who refuse to kowtow to you...hypocrisy comes to mind right about now....

BTW...Posting a private email from me to you...only proves my point about you.

Thanks!!!!

[Canuck Mormon]

I'm curious...on another thread didn't you say you left the Church cause people in your ward wouldn't sit next to you???....Mind you, I might have you confused with someone else from the UK...but I find it fascinating, you leave the Church cause you gfelt snubbed by fellow ward members...but you seem to have tons of time to slag the Church here....and I suspect elsewhere...

What's that saying..."You can leave the Church...You just can't leave the Church alone"???

Willow has worked hard and is now a fully active member of the church. Your personal attacks are getting tiresome. Drop the Holier than Thou attitude.

As far as the topic at hand. I would tell my son to do everything in his power to keep his virtue, but if it's a choice between death and keeping his virtue, I would prefer to see my son again and work through the emotional issues. I would not wish him to die for his virtue, but neither should he give it up willingly.

[Guest User-Removed]

Willow has worked hard and is now a fully active member of the church. Your personal attacks are getting tiresome. Drop the Holier than Thou attitude.

As far as the topic at hand. I would tell my son to do everything in his power to keep his virtue, but if it's a choice between death and keeping his virtue, I would prefer to see my son again and work through the emotional issues. I would not wish him to die for his virtue, but neither should he give it up willingly.

The "Holier than Thou"...attitude is in your eye....not mine.

If she is as you say, back in the Church, then this is news to me, and if she states this, then I owe her an apology. Everything that I've read to date states otherwise. NOW, I'll admit, that having a life, I tend not to know every intimate detail of every member here, as you and others do.

I do find it interesting though, the number of folks here who feel it quite OK to attack a faith that many of my ancestors gave their all for, while defending the attackers of that faith.

It's funny...I've heard the "better dead than bed" talk(s) numerous times over the years. As a youth, we'd get them all the time at MIA and elsewhere...Never once did any of "us" kids ever take the talks to be in the leteral sense of the words... We understood the metaphor involved that moral cleanliness is of paramount importance.

Yet...apparently, some seem to have once again twisted a wonderful tenent of our faith into something really ugly and devisive. I guess the words of Isaiah is coming to fruition about evil as good...and good as evil....?????

[VisionOfLehi]

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

And now, my son, I would to God that ye had not been guilty of so great a crime. I would not dwell upon your crimes, to harrow up your soul, if it were not for your good.

But behold, ye cannot hide your crimes from God; and except ye repent they will stand as a testimony against you at the last day.

Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.

Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

Behold, I do not condemn you; go your ways and sin no more; perform with soberness the work which I have commanded you.

Nevertheless, thou art not excusable in thy transgressions; nevertheless, go thy way and sin no more.

And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

READ THEM.

UNDERSTAND THEM.

Alma NEVER said it would be better for Corianton to be dead, not when he has the chance to repent.

Everyone is talking about Honor. YES! Good! Purity is the way to go! Integrity!

This should be taught to the young man going out on his mission. Have honor! Choose honor over your life, if you must.

But I don't honor the man who says he'd rather see his son dead than impure. If he said "I'd rather you choose death over impurity," yeah, but not the way he said it... Perhaps he was just trying to leave a deep impression, but there's other ways, more proper ways.

Know ye not that the Gospel is the Gospel of Repentance, the keys of which are held by the lower, Aaronic priesthood, and not merely the Melchizedek priesthood or by Missionaries alone?

We're ALL commanded to preach repentance to the world... Better to teach repentance, than to teach your children that you will cease preferring them among the living if they sin.

[Traveler]

There seems to be a gross misunderstanding - Repentance is a return with honor and forgiveness from others has noting to do with true repentance - except for those that cannot forgive and therefore know no honor.

And so I wonder - has honor lost meaning with some? I cannot understand any parent that does not encourage their children to live with honor.

The Traveler

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't think anyone is saying they don't encourage their children to live with honor.

What we're contending is whether or not death is preferred for one you love, than to have them lose their honor.

The bluntness of the "controversial" statement does not seem to make place for the Atonement, or anything, really.

How about "I would be more disappointed if you committed grievous sin than I would if you died clean and with honor."