Court of Love Lawyer?

[MichaelPAGuy]

This may seem like a stupid question. I know someone who is going to a court of love to be excommunicated. Now then, since this is supposedly a court, he wants to take a lawyer to represent himself, since he would be the only one there to represent himself. Does he have the right to take a lawyer there since it will be just himself vs the entire church? In my opinion, I think he does.

[butongrl]

Being excommunicated from the church has nothing to do with the laws of the land so I don't see any sense in bringing a lawyer. I mean really what is the lawyer gonna do?

[siouxz72]

I'd have to agree with butongrl...no need for a lawyer as it has nothing to do with laws of the land. Only with making things right with the Lord. :)

[MorningStar]

I think during church courts, half of the people present represent your side. And I don't think "Court of Love" is the official name.

[KosherXMorg]

I don't know if he can have "legal counsel", but I do believe he is entitled to call witnesses on his behalf if he says or is not guilty of what he is being accused of. Ask Skip, he seems to have the whole GHOI memorized.

[skalenfehl]

My understanding is that a court of love is not like the traditional courts of law with prosecutors, attorneys, juries, etc. Lawyers do not fit within the parameters of a church court of love where someone may or may not be excommunicated or disfellowshipped.

[siouxz72]

What's a GHOI?

[KosherXMorg]

General Handbook of Instructions

[Elphaba]

This may seem like a stupid question. I know someone who is going to a court of love to be excommunicated. Now then, since this is supposedly a court, he wants to take a lawyer to represent himself, since he would be the only one there to represent himself. Does he have the right to take a lawyer there since it will be just himself vs the entire church? In my opinion, I think he does.

The Church is a private organization, and therefore has the right to call anyone to the court its reprensentatives want. They would never let anyone bring legal counsel, nor should they have to.

I understand there are members who represent the person, but from anecdotal stories only, they rarely make a difference if the bishop feels the person needs to be excommunicated. But like I said, that is only anecdotal.

I do think the person should be able to bring whomever he wants for support, just to be there with him, not necessarily to testify, as it can be very emotionally upsetting. But, again, that's the Church's call.

But a legal representative would not make any difference, and the Church would not allow it, I'm sure. And there isn't any law that would say it should. That would be a violation of Church and State.

Elphaba

[Guest Xzain]

I do believe anyone going into a disciplinary court is allowed- encouraged, even- to bring another person to testify in their defense.

[Moksha]

Church Discipinary Hearing is a much more accurate title, is it not?

[havejoy]

This may seem like a stupid question. I know someone who is going to a court of love to be excommunicated. Now then, since this is supposedly a court, he wants to take a lawyer to represent himself, since he would be the only one there to represent himself. Does he have the right to take a lawyer there since it will be just himself vs the entire church? In my opinion, I think he does.

How does this guy know he's getting excommunicated?

I've BTDT and it has nothing to do with the laws of the land so an attorney would be silly. It does have everything to do with attitude.

A good friend of mine and I were called in for the same thing a month apart. She was defiant and dishonest and did get excommunicated. I was honest and humble and asked for help and got disfellowshipped. BTW being disfellowshipped is not a bad thing. It really was all about love and surrounding me with people who were strong and could keep me on the right track.

[MichaelPAGuy]

He received a letter that says he was going to have a hearing or "court of love." I thought according to US Law he as the right at any trial or court, no matter what he is allowed legal representation. Sorry, but I think the US Law prevails in this one.

[utcowboy]

He isn't going to a court of US Law, he is being evaluated for religious infactions. Hello can you say seperation of church and state?? If anyone is allowed to join him it with be up to the presiding authority.

[MichaelPAGuy]

Seapration of churh and state, doesn't the church have that problem by telling their members to veto this and veto that by letters to it's members? Hello!

[Canuck Mormon]

Seapration of churh and state, doesn't the church have that problem by telling their members to veto this and veto that by letters to it's members? Hello!

References please. If you have allegations, please provide references of said allegations. I have never received a letter from the church telling me which way to vote on any issue. They encourage everyone to get out and vote, but they do not tell people how to vote. However, because the members have similar values, the majority of them would vote a certain way.

[Gwen]

was the letter calling it a court of love from the bishop? maybe that's a personal term of his, i've never heard it called that. diciplinary counsel is how i've always heard it.

if i've committed a sin then i've done it what need is there to take a "lawyer" to such a meeting unless you are fighting against the consequences of your actions. there will always be consequences, you might scapegoat them now but the time will come. i'd say humble yourself and get it over with now. but then i've never been to one so i'm just speculating.

[VisionOfLehi]

Separation of Church and State means that the State (Government) has no say over what religion you're allowed to adhere to, and can not interfere with the manner or place which you worship (unless it violates other laws.) It means there can be no government-endorsed religion.

Having "no lawyers" at the Court is not because of separation of Church and State, it's because the Church is a private institute.

The Church does not and will not endorse any particular candidate. In fact, every election time I've been around so far, the leaders of my Ward read a letter from the First Presidency saying that they do not endorse any candidate, and that we're not allowed to speak for the Church and endorse any candidate, and that they hope we vote.

This, again, isn't because of SCS, but because the Church is a non-profit organization, and by laws (which we uphold) a NPO can not endorse political candidates.

[MichaelPAGuy]

I remember back a few years ago when I was a member, there was talk of putting a gambling casino around the area I live in. The bishop read a letter from the President of the church and Stake President urging people to vote no on the ballot to veteo the casino that was coming into the area because gambling is wrong and destroys families. Now to me, that is getting involved in politics.

[VisionOfLehi]

That has nothing to do with political candidates, but instead personal values (so it's not against NPO, I believe).

We are told not to gamble, and in this case you were being counseled to act upon and stand up for that.

There's nothing against that. Separation of Church and State says the government can't control the religion. It does not ever mean that a church can't have political beliefs or want its members to follow certain beliefs and practices.

Churches can get involved in government and societal issues, that's fine.

[Hemidakota]

Concur with the last there Lehi Yes MPG, you can bring witnesses to help your case before the Bishop or Stake President Disciplinary Court. However, I will tell you, you really don't need it since they are pretty much on your side as the Savior or the Spirit in the room is also. Unless you have served in that capacity, feeling the Spirit during a given court session is dramatic and yet, draining.

What you need to remember if this applicable to you, let it be the FATHER's will in your case on the results. Harbor no ill will or leave that session with a negative connotation over those who officating.

[skalenfehl]

Church Discipinary Hearing is a much more accurate title, is it not?

I do believe that is correct. Or "Disciplinary Council". Who came up with the word "court" for this anyway? No wonder this thread has evolved this way.

[Hemidakota]

Western culture way of thinking? lol

[MorningStar]

I do believe that is correct. Or "Disciplinary Council". Who came up with the word "court" for this anyway? No wonder this thread has evolved this way.

I'm trying to find a talk that compares it to that, but that's not what it's called.

I have a few friends and relatives who have been involved in these councils and it is a very emotional experience for them. They fast and pray beforehand and according to my father-in-law, everyone on the council ends up in tears. Typically people end up there because they confessed to the bishop and wanted help through the repentance process. It's not like they're dragged there in handcuffs and sentenced. Excommunication sounds harsh, but it basically gives the person a do over and it is done out of love, not to punish.

[Hemidakota]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - A Chance to Start Over: Church Disciplinary Councils and the Restoration of Blessings