Anti-Mormons

[pam]

I've always wondered why on this board we feel the need to have people justify their personal decisions?

[candyprpl]

Some even start their own church after searching in vain.

With my testimony of the restored gospel, I am very happy where I am at. I would never leave it. And those who do, we still care about them and hope, even pray, that they will return back some day.

I couldn't agree with you more!! Just look at all the different churches out there today!!

[bytor2112]

Yes, I know, and on that point I don't disagree that this is what Mormonism teaches and -- as far as I'm aware -- has always taught.

I'm not sure what your point in this current post is about, though.

Well, my point was just to reiterate why I believe that some leave the church. You initially questioned my assertion that the War in heaven continues. You later conceded the point, and now you don't understand the point of the post.

So here it tis....... I think that you have been decieved and that is why you have left the church. I am sure you disagree and that's ok, its just my opinion and mean no disrespect. Just trying to clarify my post.

[rameumptom]

You probably just gave me the best description I've heard of the benefits of having a hierarchical, and yet nearly all-volunteer church.

Prison Chaplain,

I think this definition helps to define how the LDS are different in many aspects from others, a task I obviously failed at explaining earlier. While I recognize that most churches have volunteers that give much time and energy to their local or regional church; there is an expectation in the LDS Church that comes with the covenant of baptism, that each of us will receive and accept callings along the way.

It is one thing to personally volunteer to be a youth minister or a Sunday School teacher. It is quite a different thing to be called to something, which you may not even have an interest in.

Our hierarchy is such that when there is a disaster, we can and do organize quickly. When Terre Haute, Indiana was flooded last month, we had 3 days notice to gather a group to spend the weekend there. We had over 500 members from 4 stakes each day. And I've seen this happen several times before with hurricane Opal, flooding in Albany Georgia, hurricane Katrina, etc. For Katrina, we had our stakes organized for different weekends to go down, so that the Indianapolis stakes went down on a weekend with over 500 people - 5000 total helped that weekend alone.

And the expectation is both driven down by the leadership, but also is self-imposed. I just had a new member give his first priesthood lesson today. He was very unsure of himself, and asked us to consider someone else, but still stepped up and accomplished the task faithfully.

[OtterPop]

I think that you have been decieved and that is why you have left the church. I am sure you disagree and that's ok, its just my opinion and mean no disrespect. Just trying to clarify my post.

I thought that's what you were getting at, but I didn't want to assume.

Tell me, how do you determine that one has been deceived, other than concluding that it must be so just because their experience doesn't match with your own testimony and experience?

[twbocci]

Christians (which I am) approach the issue in an offensive manner often times. Mostly due to the discrepancies that exist between the Mormon religion and what the bible teaches us. Exaltation for example. The fact that one can only enter the higher "levels" of heaven if they belong to the Mormon church. Jesus Christ is the savior and widely availableto those of different churches. I believe that Mormons can be saved by believing in Christ just as any Christian can, but worry they might be missing on the point that Jesus alone is the light of the world and he accepts Jew and Gentile alike. He examines the hearts and minds of all men and pays no attention to what church you belong to. Hope this didn't come across as anti-mormon.

Thanks

[Traveler]

Christians (which I am) approach the issue in an offensive manner often times. Mostly due to the discrepancies that exist between the Mormon religion and what the bible teaches us. Exaltation for example. The fact that one can only enter the higher "levels" of heaven if they belong to the Mormon church. Jesus Christ is the savior and widely availableto those of different churches. I believe that Mormons can be saved by believing in Christ just as any Christian can, but worry they might be missing on the point that Jesus alone is the light of the world and he accepts Jew and Gentile alike. He examines the hearts and minds of all men and pays no attention to what church you belong to. Hope this didn't come across as anti-mormon.

Thanks

Most LDS that I know (including myself) are not so concerned that many people find comfort in the Christian churches they attend and do not care to read the Book of Mormon or learn about the LDS church. What does concern me and others I know are basically two things:

First: those that feel it is more important to teach what they think is wrong with the "Mormons" more than they are willing to teach what is right with their beliefs. This is a major red flag to me about someone's faith in the “Good News” of Christ.

Second: Is when they feel that they know more about the "Mormons" than do the LDS people that live the faith. Even when they find that some misrepresent LDS teachings they are still willing to believe what others say we believe over what we say we believe. This gives me the impression that some is trying to play without a full deck.

Those the oppose the LDS without proper understanding of our doctrine (including those that claim to be return LDS missionaries and former Temple recommend holders) convince me that they most likely do not understand their present faith or intellectual status either. Let me give one example – I once conversed with a person that was adamant that Joseph Smith was a convicted fraud. Despite that Joseph has never been convicted of fraud in any court they still insisted he was a convicted fraud – quoting anything and everything but a court preceding where he was convicted (because there just is not one). The only possible conclusion I could draw is that this person had lost their rational marbles and that there is no sane reason to attempt to converse with someone so mentally handicapped.

The Traveler

[pam]

Could not have said it better Traveler. Thank you for your post.

[Palerider]

Most LDS that I know (including myself) are not so concerned that many people find comfort in the Christian churches they attend and do not care to read the Book of Mormon or learn about the LDS church. What does concern me and others I know are basically two things:

First: those that feel it is more important to teach what they think is wrong with the "Mormons" more than they are willing to teach what is right with their beliefs. This is a major red flag to me about someone's faith in the “Good News” of Christ.

Second: Is when they feel that they know more about the "Mormons" than do the LDS people that live the faith. Even when they find that some misrepresent LDS teachings they are still willing to believe what others say we believe over what we say we believe. This gives me the impression that some is trying to play without a full deck.

Those the oppose the LDS without proper understanding of our doctrine (including those that claim to be return LDS missionaries and former Temple recommend holders) convince me that they most likely do not understand their present faith or intellectual status either. Let me give one example – I once conversed with a person that was adamant that Joseph Smith was a convicted fraud. Despite that Joseph has never been convicted of fraud in any court they still insisted he was a convicted fraud – quoting anything and everything but a court preceding where he was convicted (because there just is not one). The only possible conclusion I could draw is that this person had lost their rational marbles and that there is no sane reason to attempt to converse with someone so mentally handicapped.

The Traveler

how true....and I have stated this many times on this board.....I live in a portion of the Bible Belt and we have alot of Baptists around here......I hear this kind of thing you speak of over and over..

[WANDERER]

One LDS blog introduced me to the term "theological porn" and I'm still trying to scrub the term out of my head. If only you could vomit up some ideas and feel better afterwards. Dealing with it is today's issue.

[rameumptom]

Christians (which I am) approach the issue in an offensive manner often times. Mostly due to the discrepancies that exist between the Mormon religion and what the bible teaches us. Exaltation for example. The fact that one can only enter the higher "levels" of heaven if they belong to the Mormon church. Jesus Christ is the savior and widely availableto those of different churches. I believe that Mormons can be saved by believing in Christ just as any Christian can, but worry they might be missing on the point that Jesus alone is the light of the world and he accepts Jew and Gentile alike. He examines the hearts and minds of all men and pays no attention to what church you belong to. Hope this didn't come across as anti-mormon.

Thanks

I guess it is all on how one views things. You see Mormonism as potentially offensive, because we believe that only some Mormons will be exalted. I see it as God has opened the door for many to be saved, and some to be exalted. Many Christians believe that those who have never heard of Jesus will be damned to hell for never accepting him. Mormons believe that all of them will receive a level of heaven, and that all people will have a chance to hear and accept the fullness of the gospel, if not in this life, in the Spirit World. I believe there are many millions in the Spirit World who have accepted the fullness of Christ's gospel, many of whom would have been condemned to hell by other Christians for not hearing of Christ in the past.

So, for me, I consider Mormonism's viewpoint a near universal salvation into a heaven, while many Christians have a very closed and limited atonement (TULIP, for example). Even St Augustine insisted that dying babies who were not baptized would burn in hell - not my idea of a loving and charitable God; while the LDS view is very loving and caring, showing that God truly loves all his children.

[bytor2112]

Christians (which I am) approach the issue in an offensive manner often times. Mostly due to the discrepancies that exist between the Mormon religion and what the bible teaches us. Exaltation for example. The fact that one can only enter the higher "levels" of heaven if they belong to the Mormon church. Jesus Christ is the savior and widely availableto those of different churches. I believe that Mormons can be saved by believing in Christ just as any Christian can, but worry they might be missing on the point that Jesus alone is the light of the world and he accepts Jew and Gentile alike. He examines the hearts and minds of all men and pays no attention to what church you belong to. Hope this didn't come across as anti-mormon.

Thanks

Not Anti-mormon........ just a typical lack of understanding of LDS doctrine.

[bytor2112]

I thought that's what you were getting at, but I didn't want to assume.

Tell me, how do you determine that one has been deceived, other than concluding that it must be so just because their experience doesn't match with your own testimony and experience?

Again..... just my opinion. But I have read many accounts regarding why people leave the church and it tends to be over some historical issue that they can't reconcile and it hurts their testimony..... if indeed they had one. I know that some people had only "borrowed" testimonies or very fragile testimonies at best. The adversaries greatest asset in his struggle to lead people away is anything that can plant a seed of doubt........ like so much of the anti information does.

Maye that is not your story and I am sure others have different reasons as well. But... this is just my opinion.

Edited July 21, 2008 by bytor2112

[peanutgallery]

First: those that feel it is more important to teach what they think is wrong with the "Mormons" more than they are willing to teach what is right with their beliefs. This is a major red flag to me about someone's faith in the “Good News” of Christ.

The Traveler

When my niece was engaged, her fiance was investigating the church. His parents were horrified. They would tell him some of the bizarre beliefs they had "heard." He asked them to meet with him & the LDS missionaries to clear up some of their misconceptions. When he arrived, he discovered that they had brought a couple of members from their church who were experts. He said that all their experts did was talk about how wrong Mormons are. They never answered any of his questions about their faith. He said that the LDS missionaries answered every question asked. He asked to be baptized the next day.:)

[candyprpl]

Quote by Otterpop

"In my own case, I left the Church for spiritual reasons, gradually and gently by God. I was led to a richer belief and a richer life outside Mormonism. You could say I was "deconverted" after having been born into Mormonism. And Moroni 10 certainly had a lot to do with it."

I'm curious about this statement and was wondering if you could explain what happened. Just like us Mormons don't like people telling us what we believe I don't want to make assumptions about this statement. Some of the posters have already tried to make suggestions at why you might have left the church. Before I joined the church I was never one to be led by unjustifiable judgements and I feel even stronger about that now that I am a member. So bottom line -- I'm just curious -- I am not interested in telling you your decision is wrong because it goes against what I believe.

Care to explain for yourself?

Edited July 21, 2008 by candyprpl

[MichaelPAGuy]

I know I've been very anti-Mormon on this board and I feel really bad for it. It always seems every time I think I have left this church for good, something keeps drawing me back.

[bytor2112]

So... are you interested in sharing what draws you back or maybe what pushes you away?

[bytor2112]

My friend is a Baptist and has switched churches several times the past couple of years....all Baptist churches. I asked him why he was changing and he said that it was because he disagreed with the Preachers views?????

They can't agree on what is true... except that what we believe isn't true. I think the fact that we declare absolutes when it comes to doctrine...like the Catholics, and claim authority to do so, throw non LDS Christians off. Because the majority of Christendom has no real, carved in stone absolutes.

Edited July 21, 2008 by bytor2112

[rameumptom]

I know I've been very anti-Mormon on this board and I feel really bad for it. It always seems every time I think I have left this church for good, something keeps drawing me back.

Maybe it is the Holy Spirit that draws you back? Careful that you don't push him away for good.

[prisonchaplain]

My friend is a Baptist and has switched churches several times the past couple of years....all Baptist churches. I asked him why he was changing and he said that it was because he disagreed with the Preachers views?????

They can't agree on what is true... except that what we believe isn't true. I think the fact that we declare absolutes when it comes to doctrine...like the Catholics, and claim authority to do so, throw non LDS Christians off. Because the majority of Christendom has no real, carved in stone absolutes.

The Southern Baptist Convention actually agrees on a lot of doctrines and issues. The Baptist Faith & Message However, because it's governance is congregational, each church has the final authority. The national group opposes females in ordained ministry, speaking in tongues, and the inspiration of the Book of Mormon. Yet, you may see female ministers in local churches, speaking tongues, and we all know about the Baptist minister who believes in the Book of Mormon.

In my denomination, we agree on 16 fundamental doctrines, and ministers who stray will lose their ordination. Yet, still, local churches may have different schedules, different programs, different styles of music, etc.

So, you are right, that most of us do not experience the denominational unity and solidarity and conformity that your church offers.

[Snow]

My friend is a Baptist and has switched churches several times the past couple of years....all Baptist churches. I asked him why he was changing and he said that it was because he disagreed with the Preachers views?????

They can't agree on what is true... except that what we believe isn't true. I think the fact that we declare absolutes when it comes to doctrine...like the Catholics, and claim authority to do so, throw non LDS Christians off. Because the majority of Christendom has no real, carved in stone absolutes.

Hasn't the doctrine of the Trinity been consistent for the past 1500 years?

[Dr T]

That's one good one Snow. I'll even give you a ty for that one.

[rameumptom]

I believe there are consistencies in many doctrines among Christians, and then even more within the specific faiths.

While LDS do have some set core doctrines, there is a huge variation on how they are viewed. Does the Word of Wisdom mean just abstaining from tobacco, alcohol, coffee and tea? Or does it also mean little meat, lots of vegetables, no Caffeine, etc?

How did the atonement actually work?

[Elphaba]

Let me give one example – I once conversed with a person that was adamant that Joseph Smith was a convicted fraud.

For those who are wondering, I am the person Traveler is talking about.

Rather than repeat myself over and over again, let me state categorically that I never, ever, stated Joseph was a convicted fraud. Ever.

The only possible conclusion I could draw is that this person [Elphaba] had lost their [her] rational marbles and that there is no sane reason to attempt to converse with someone [Elphaba] so mentally handicapped.

By the way Traveler, we had at least one further conversation. That is the one where you wrote “It is my opinion that you are insane.”

I always loved that one.

Elphaba

[Palerider]

My friend is a Baptist and has switched churches several times the past couple of years....all Baptist churches. I asked him why he was changing and he said that it was because he disagreed with the Preachers views?????

They can't agree on what is true... except that what we believe isn't true. I think the fact that we declare absolutes when it comes to doctrine...like the Catholics, and claim authority to do so, throw non LDS Christians off. Because the majority of Christendom has no real, carved in stone absolutes.

Here in my area I to know several that have changed or resigned over the things that you have stated. One of friends told me they were looking for another church to attend...but...they wanted to attend a few services and try to see if the political views of the Pastor were close to their own.