Why people leave the church

[funkymonkey]

And my answer to the op question is NO there is nothing about the church I question and it is in no way desturbing.

Hi Sherri.

I do agree that we must be very careful when it comes to any controversial information. And you are very much more a spiritual giant if it doesn't make you curious to understand it.

However God gave us intelligence for a reason. He wants us to use that intellect.

I really do think that God wants us to judge for ourselves all things in search for the truth, and take it to him in prayer.

Because I have a lot of family and friends that are very against the mormon church, I want to be open to new information so I have the oportunity to learn and understand it. More than likely it'll help me down the road in conversations with others that may have heard the same stuff.

No information in the world can be as clear as the feeling of the Holy Ghost.

[Soulsearcher]

Hi Bethie,

I don't think that is correct. I think you could speak to the Bishop of the local Ward and explain your situation and would be welcomed with open arms. If your arrangement is not involving sexual transgression that that shouldn't prevent you from joining the Church. We have a lady in our Ward that has a male roommate, nothing else just friends and she is a member and he isn't. The Church does welcome all............. don't delay!! :)

Sorry, i have to disagree. I used to go spend weekends at a friends house. she was a divorced mother of 5 working full time. I'd go out on the weekends to help take care of the kids and make sure they had someone who loved them being there for them when mom couldn't. The bishop at first was fine and understanding, but the family members in the church, and other ward members talked and made an issue out of it and then the bishops changed and he said that there was a relationship gonig on and it was unacceptable that i stay there any longer. after that the kids started having more problems and the oldest son started sneaking out and skipping school, but they figured it was better that way cause they had removed the appearance of evil.

[jimuk]

Many moons ago i was asked by my then bishop to give a talk on Fellowship within the church, this was to be the first time i had ever stood up in front of a crowd, i really dident want to do it, all my life i had hated being the centre of attention, and as hard as i tried lol, i couldn't get out of it, i even wrote it down and tried to practice it, but i just couldent remember it, it needed to come from the heart and it was sounding like a rehearsed speech, anyway the morning came and i was a bag of nerves, i was sweating and feeling sick, i nearly sneaked off home.

The time came "help" i put my hand into the pocket where the notes "should have been" but they were gone, i know i had put them there, but they were nowhere upon my person.

I stepped up and was introduced, I was silent for a minute, all i could see was these smiling faces all looking up at me expectantly waiting, Then all of a sudden a calm came over me, such a calm, i knew at that moment everything i was saying was by the spirit, my talk on fellowship was supposed to take about 10 minutes, but after around twenty i became mr nervous again and wound it up, The Holy Ghost had done his work, the father had let the people know what he needed to about Fellowship.

There is not enough of it in the church especially towards new members who have had so much love from the missionaries before and during their baptism, that when the elders move on to another family they can feel so alone when left to themselves, it can be so very lonely for them, so strange to now be so physically by themselves in what seemed to be such a loving frendly environment. These members will fall if they are not shown the fellowship that they so much deserve and it is the duty of whatever ward these new members are in, to be shown the true love, charity, and kindness, which heavenly father expects from each and EVERY one of us, without exeption, that they do not go astray which will happen if not welcomed into the fold.

[Rico]

But this good mom will not be allowed to attend her daughter's wedding in the SLC Temple. Though the mom is LDS, she doesn't have a temple reccommend. I guess she didn't pay the required tithing from her meager income. She raised her children with love and did the best she could, but the Church is now denying her a

place at her daughter's wedding. This feels very wrong to me. I understand that

tithing is really about faith and not money. But this mother used all her money for her children....and Jesus said, "what you do unto the least of these, you do unto me".

So by what right does the Church have in keeping her from her daughter's Temple wedding? I DO love the Church, yet this breaks my heart! How will non-

members feel on hearing this story? Will they be drawn to the Church? Will they

feel the Church's Love, or will they feel the well-intentioned mother's love?

You mentioned that the mother struggled for years on a low wage trying to raise her daughters. What if she had been a full tithe payer? Maybe her struggles might have been much easier to bear?

I know this will sound cold hearted, but it's hard to feel the love when someone is refusing Heavenly Father's blessings.

[nannysherri]

It all comes down to faith, in a Father in Heaven, his gospel and in yourself. Though the same warm feelings should come from people in the church, the feelings that you feel from the Power of a true desire to know truth. Feeling alone in a room where you think it should be otherwise can be so confusing. Sometimes people can say things that are true but they somtimes say it in an unloving way but many are progressing in different ways. Members often don't understand how to aproach others, they don't want to hurt anothers feelings so they come off as being unfriendly as opposed as not fellowshiping, be carefull how you judge others motives. Many of us including myself often may sit alone at church but the feeling of being lonely is a choice. If you chose to leave the church know it is you that is making that choice.

[gomspal]

Critics have always used the first vision with its different versions as a tool to discredit Joseph Smith and the Church. Here is a link where you can find explanations from LDS Scholars about the versions and what does each version emphasize.

First Vision accounts - FAIRMormon

[jimuk]

It all comes down to faith, in a Father in Heaven, his gospel and in yourself. Though the same warm feelings should come from people in the church, the feelings that you feel from the Power of a true desire to know truth. Feeling alone in a room where you think it should be otherwise can be so confusing. Sometimes people can say things that are true but they somtimes say it in an unloving way but many are progressing in different ways. Members often don't understand how to aproach others, they don't want to hurt anothers feelings so they come off as being unfriendly as opposed as not fellowshiping, be carefull how you judge others motives. Many of us including myself often may sit alone at church but the feeling of being lonely is a choice. If you chose to leave the church know it is you that is making that choice.

Hi nannysherri, You mention "should come from people in the church" But i say it "must" come from people in the church.

You can not "progress" if you know there are people that need fellowship and turn your back on them, Heavenly father dont want to lose any of his flock not one, if we allow this to happen without trying to help them then it will be us that will be answerable to god, and not the person who feels they have been driven out by an unfriendly congregation.

I certainly do not think that being lonely is a choice, if somebody is so lonely and gets no fellowship when they are in despair or deep depression then they would have been driven away from the church by those that chose to turn their back on one of gods children.

That is no diffrent than seeing an old lady getting mugged and turning ones back because one dident want to get involved or "cause a fuss".

Sorry if i have read wrongly into your post, but its as if you would be blaming the unhappy member for being lonely, when all around them is new and maybe quite daunting for them.

[nannysherri]

jimuk, I understand your pain and yes people will be held accountable. What I am trying to say is people must take the time to develop a testomony, reading scriptures, attending meetings and yes doing service. If a person does not develop this they will lose a great deal and are you going to spend your time complaining that no one is speaking to you when you could be doing everything you can to gain a testomony. Believe what it sayes in Moroni 10, you can gain truth in all things. Do this and you can be the one reaching out and you will gain blessings from it.

[MorningStar]

Most people I know who left the church (in person) - their doctrinal issues came later.

[jimuk]

Love, kindness, charity, this is all part of the fellowship that the new member must have at the beginning of their journey, this is a main part of our love for Jesus christ, he showed it whilst he himself walked this earth, and he has told us that we must do the same. I may be wrong,

John 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Below is a short part from Ensign

Gordon B. Hinckley, “Find the Lambs, Feed the Sheep,” Ensign, May 1999, 104

From a satellite broadcast given at the Salt Lake Tabernacle 21 February 1999

Strengthening New Members

Having found and baptized a new convert, we have the challenge of fellowshipping him and strengthening his testimony of the truth of this work. We cannot have him walking in the front door and out the back. Joining the Church is a very serious thing. Each convert takes upon himself or herself the name of Christ with an implied promise to keep His commandments. But coming into the Church can be a perilous experience. Unless there are warm and strong hands to greet the convert, unless there is an outreach of love and concern, he will begin to wonder about the step he has taken. Unless there are friendly hands and welcome hearts to greet him and lead him along the way, he may drop by the side.

There is absolutely no point in doing missionary work unless we hold on to the fruits of that effort. The two must be inseparable. These converts are precious. Every convert is a son or daughter of God. Every convert is a great and serious responsibility. It is an absolute imperative that we look after those who have become a part of us. To paraphrase the Savior, what shall it profit a missionary if he baptize the whole world unless those baptized remain in the Church? (see Mark 8:36).

I myself had never read that before, its great to find such a great person that agrees totally with the way i feel.

Edited July 30, 2008 by jimuk

[jimuk]

nanni, i must go to bed, its five oclock in morning lol, nite nite

[Moksha]

Here is a link where you can find explanations from LDS Scholars about the versions and what does each version emphasize.

Here is is in pictorial form: http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/nggallery/Mormon%20Art/firstvisionssmall.jpg

[mike_uk]

Mike I feel your struggle....... I am a bit curious, though. You say because of the History of the church, which much of it is alleged, it cannot be from God? Does that include all of Christianity as well. Because there are a great deal of historical issues that make my head swirl at times.

Standards are tough...no doubt. But we all have our personal struggles...even those who appear perfect.

The Temple...ok...... I love the Temple... I don't understand it all or even why some of it is necessary. But I have faith that as I grow the Lord will reveal sacred truths to me. We don't have to be a Prophet or Apostle to see Jesus Christ or hear his voice... we just have to be worthy and listen.

Doctrinal issues are usually just misunderstandings. Maybe throwing them on the table for discussion would be a great way to sort things out.

Bytor, you appear to be a decent, understanding person, so thank you.

I agree, much of it is alleged but equally much of it is not alleged. Tha MAIN reasons are all very much well documented and valid and for the life of me I cannot accept them as being direct commandments from God, I just cannot sorry. I try to counter balance my negativity with reading LDS scholary materials from FAIR etc but its not enough. I have dug far too deep into the life of Jospeph and the early history and it just does not add up IMO. Living the life of a mormon from a warm fluffy feeling to me now is not something I can do. Having said that, I never did receive that warm fluffy feeling which adds to the dilemma.

Living the standards and carrying the guilt from the things I Was not doing, trying to do all the things expected of me, being told what to think, what to say, what to watch, what to wear, what to eat and drink, or who my friends should be, how I should spend my time. Forcing me to visit people every month that really didnt want visits, reading 2-3 lesson every week along with the scriptures. Whats more, visiting the temple (I hated it) every month, attending sunday and midweek meeting religiously, spending time away from our families every week doing callings etc. Then there is the guilt from not doing my geneology and expected to be judged harshly becasue of my waiting ancestors and on top of this having to work hard to provide for my family, teach them the gospel and raise them to be good LDS. I just cant take it, far too much is expected from us just to get back to a so called loving Heavenly Father. Would any father place so much burden on their children?

I agree with something Rameupton wrote in that not everyone is LDS material. Infact I believe very few are. Which raises the question "why would God who wants us all to come home to him make it so damned tough to get there"?

I tried so hard to love the temple but it never came. The 1st time made me ill but I went back the next day to try and get over the shock. I attended most months for years eventually getting over the hatred of the temple but I always felt uncomfortable in their and never felt the spirit. At one stage my BP was trying his hardest toencourage me to become a veil worker becasue of my attendance. Now after learning about the masonic similarities its even more evidence, again IMO that is all too convenient. Sorry.

My knowledge of doctrie is fine. Atleast I think so. I have learnt a lot from teaching gospel doctrine, giving sacrament talks most months, teaching youth. When active I just accepted it but now it's hard to, especially now and the realisation that much of our doctrine comes from the Book of Abraham which I believe to be hoax.

So, as you can see there is no going back now. Too late for me.

Edited July 30, 2008 by mike_uk

[Listener]

As an aside, the LDS church is clearly not alone in having members leave after their initial commitments.

The Catholic church has struggled with this for centuries, and most of the modern denominations struggle with "sheep-stealing", i.e. one church drawing new members from the ranks of another church.

Much of this would seem to be related to being human. We are designed to be seekers of God, but our experience of our own families, our own history, and our own culture often bend and influence our faith decisions. The cost of agency is great indeed.

IMHO, one of the greatests causes of turning away from any faith is isolation. We begin to seek answers to deeper questions (as we are so designed!), and are met with silence, or criticism, or exclusion, or textbook replies. Being loving and compassionate to one another as we struggle, and encouraging each other at all times would be a great start.

Hence, the gentle and open discussion on this thread fits the need very well. Now to spread this back to the branch!

[Palerider]

I do know that all the denominations in our area struggle with these things.....here in our part of the Church most of the people that stop attending is due to 2 things....one being a word of wisdom issue and the other is they get mad or offended or mad at their Bishop.

[utcowboy]

I do know that all the denominations in our area struggle with these things.....here in our part of the Church most of the people that stop attending is due to 2 things....one being a word of wisdom issue and the other is they get mad or offended or mad at their Bishop.

It seems to me that is why 90% of the people I talk to have left. Because someone didn't agree with them and offended them or they wanted to see what they were missing, that "everyone else was doing!"

[candyprpl]

Love, kindness, charity, this is all part of the fellowship that the new member must have at the beginning of their journey, this is a main part of our love for Jesus christ, he showed it whilst he himself walked this earth, and he has told us that we must do the same. I may be wrong,

John 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Below is a short part from Ensign

Gordon B. Hinckley, “Find the Lambs, Feed the Sheep,” Ensign, May 1999, 104

From a satellite broadcast given at the Salt Lake Tabernacle 21 February 1999

Strengthening New Members

Having found and baptized a new convert, we have the challenge of fellowshipping him and strengthening his testimony of the truth of this work. We cannot have him walking in the front door and out the back. Joining the Church is a very serious thing. Each convert takes upon himself or herself the name of Christ with an implied promise to keep His commandments. But coming into the Church can be a perilous experience. Unless there are warm and strong hands to greet the convert, unless there is an outreach of love and concern, he will begin to wonder about the step he has taken. Unless there are friendly hands and welcome hearts to greet him and lead him along the way, he may drop by the side.

There is absolutely no point in doing missionary work unless we hold on to the fruits of that effort. The two must be inseparable. These converts are precious. Every convert is a son or daughter of God. Every convert is a great and serious responsibility. It is an absolute imperative that we look after those who have become a part of us. To paraphrase the Savior, what shall it profit a missionary if he baptize the whole world unless those baptized remain in the Church? (see Mark 8:36).

I myself had never read that before, its great to find such a great person that agrees totally with the way i feel.

I have to step in here and tell a personal story. My stepson (all grown) lives 2 hrs away, going to college and he started investigating the church. The missionaries were great with him. He and his girlfriend lived together, both understood that their living arragements would have to change before they could be baptized. They went to church a whole year before they were baptized. They were loved AND welcomed. The change came after they were married and baptized. They had to go to a new ward -- no longer able to attend the college singles ward. Understandable. But, this new ward did not embrace them. Wade is handicapped and they didn't have a car so they relied on others to get them around. They had bikes but the ward was quite a distance (for Wade anyway). They would arrange for their home teachers or someone to get them to church -- they would be all dressed waiting and no one would show up. This happened time and time again. We talked to our Bishop about this. He called their Bishop and things were better for a little while. Wade and Emily (very shortly after they married) started having marrige problems. Wade finally called it quits and the marriage was annulled. He kept going to church but still complained to us that he didn't feel welcome or supported in his difficult times. We tried to give him advice but it was hard to do being far away. I see his part in all this too. I know that for myself it was up to me to become converted, not the ward members responsibility to convert me. It's hard when the new member doesn't take on his or her's responsiblity for the conversion process. Wade has been a member now for over a year and his testimony is barely there. He says, his home teachers never call him and he has stopped trying to get someone to pick him up for church. His dad and I talk to him about these difficulties but he just sits back, if you know what I mean. Says that he is reading his scriptures and praying -- but I wonder about that. My husband and I have callings and we just can't drive 2 hours every Sunday to get him to church. What to do?

So, my bottom line is sometimes people fall away because they aren't converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ and won't do what it takes to become so. When one's testimony is weak, church history, problems in wards/stakes, etc. can destroy all together one's desire to do what is right.

[Truegrits]

So, my bottom line is sometimes people fall away because they aren't converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ and won't do what it takes to become so. When one's testimony is weak, church history, problems in wards/stakes, etc. can destroy all together one's desire to do what is right.

I, also, find that to be true.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. It is us, the people, that are imperfect...that fall short.

My Visiting Teacher partner and I finished visiting our "people" yesterday.

On the way home I mentioned that I had NO idea who my Visiting Teachers were. I have not been "visited" by my Sisters in three years.

On the other hand, I have wonderfully fantastic Home Teachers who truly love me. I feel their love each and every visit. If I never had a visit from the Sisters, (or the Brothers) would I leave the Church? Absolutely not. THEY are not the cause of my belief in the Gospel, and they will not be the cause of my denying/leaving it.

No person, or their actions, (or lack of), have that power over me; nor will I give them that power. In the end, it all comes down to ME; my testimony...no one else can give that to me...no one can take it from me.

[Misshalfway]

This is not an easy church to be part of. It is demanding in every arena. And I empathize with the difficulty that comes because of it. There is much that is asked of us to help the church function. Much we deal with as we are rejected and attacked by the world and the spiritual forces that oppose it as well. And the religion itself.....the real gospel of Jesus Christ asks us to go deep....day after day, hardship after hardship, difficult person after difficult person, obedience after obedience. There are many who get jazzed and can get their fire lit.....but it is an entirely different thing to go the distance. You gotta be tough to be mormon. There is no doubt about that.

[bytor2112]

Bytor, you appear to be a decent, understanding person, so thank you.

I agree, much of it is alleged but equally much of it is not alleged. Tha MAIN reasons are all very much well documented and valid and for the life of me I cannot accept them as being direct commandments from God, I just cannot sorry. I try to counter balance my negativity with reading LDS scholary materials from FAIR etc but its not enough. I have dug far too deep into the life of Jospeph and the early history and it just does not add up IMO. Living the life of a mormon from a warm fluffy feeling to me now is not something I can do. Having said that, I never did receive that warm fluffy feeling which adds to the dilemma.

Living the standards and carrying the guilt from the things I Was not doing, trying to do all the things expected of me, being told what to think, what to say, what to watch, what to wear, what to eat and drink, or who my friends should be, how I should spend my time. Forcing me to visit people every month that really didnt want visits, reading 2-3 lesson every week along with the scriptures. Whats more, visiting the temple (I hated it) every month, attending sunday and midweek meeting religiously, spending time away from our families every week doing callings etc. Then there is the guilt from not doing my geneology and expected to be judged harshly becasue of my waiting ancestors and on top of this having to work hard to provide for my family, teach them the gospel and raise them to be good LDS. I just cant take it, far too much is expected from us just to get back to a so called loving Heavenly Father. Would any father place so much burden on their children?

I agree with something Rameupton wrote in that not everyone is LDS material. Infact I believe very few are. Which raises the question "why would God who wants us all to come home to him make it so damned tough to get there"?

I tried so hard to love the temple but it never came. The 1st time made me ill but I went back the next day to try and get over the shock. I attended most months for years eventually getting over the hatred of the temple but I always felt uncomfortable in their and never felt the spirit. At one stage my BP was trying his hardest toencourage me to become a veil worker becasue of my attendance. Now after learning about the masonic similarities its even more evidence, again IMO that is all too convenient. Sorry.

My knowledge of doctrie is fine. Atleast I think so. I have learnt a lot from teaching gospel doctrine, giving sacrament talks most months, teaching youth. When active I just accepted it but now it's hard to, especially now and the realisation that much of our doctrine comes from the Book of Abraham which I believe to be hoax.

So, as you can see there is no going back now. Too late for me.

MIKE_UK,

Thanks for the nice compliment. As I read your post, I am struck by a common theme. You didn't have the "warm, fluffy" feeling or as we like to say you really never had a testimony or a witness from the Holy Spirit that the gospel is true. I can honestly say that without that witness, that Holy confirmation, I wouldn't believe it either. I have never really understood why some recieve it and some do not. Without the Holy Spirit, things could begin to feel overbearing and the work may seem without purpose. Being a Latterday Saint is work, plain and simple. We are laborers in the Lord's vineyard. Time, talents,resources, everything to the Lord. It is a way of life. "and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." As Priesthood bearers, we are the "authorized" servants of the risen Christ.

I am guessing that your family is happy as members and have a testimony? I am also guessing, but you are living a Latter Day Saint life...no struggles, word of widom or anything? I am not promising that this will work, but, maybe this fast Sunday, you could fast for a confirmation of the truth from the Holy Spirit. I will dedicate my fast for you to recieve it....if that is ok. May I suggest bearing your testimony....It doesn't have to be about the church, it might just be about your family or whatever you feel comfortable with. And lastly, ask your Bishop for a blessing and tell him about your struggles with everything. :)

Edited July 30, 2008 by bytor2112

[candyprpl]

I get uncomfortable when I hear peope speak about how demanding the Church is on our time and our testimonies, etc. I mean, I understand what they're saying, but I disagree with how it's being stated actually. I like the way C.S. Lewis puts it....He warned people to 'count the cost', before becoming christians. 'Make no mistake,' He says, 'if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconcievable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs me, I will never rest until you are literally perfect -- until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do.

It's not the Church that asks so much of me -- it's Heavenly Father. What did it cost Jesus to do this for us? If we have a testimony of the Atonement how can we possibly whine about what it costs us? My trials, my work, my everything are preparing me to meet Him face to face and hopefully, hopefully tell me He is well pleased with me.

I'm not posting to anyone in particular -- just needed to rant a little.

Edited July 30, 2008 by candyprpl

[mike_uk]

MIKE_UK,

Thanks for the nice compliment. As I read your post, I am struck by a common theme. You didn't have the "warm, fluffy" feeling or as we like to say you really never had a testimony or a witness from the Holy Spirit that the gospel is true. I can honestly say that without that witness, that Holy confirmation, I wouldn't believe it either. I have never really understood why some recieve it and some do not. Without the Holy Spirit, things could begin to feel overbearing and the work may seem without purpose. Being a Latterday Saint is work, plain and simple. We are laborers in the Lord's vineyard. Time, talents,resources, everything to the Lord. It is a way of life. "and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." As Priesthood bearers, we are the "authorized" servants of the risen Christ.

I am guessing that your family is happy as members and have a testimony? I am also guessing, but you are living a Latter Day Saint life...no struggles, word of widom or anything? I am not promising that this will work, but, maybe this fast Sunday, you could fast for a confirmation of the truth from the Holy Spirit. I will dedicate my fast for you to recieve it....if that is ok. May I suggest bearing your testimony....I doesn't have to be about the church, it might just be about your family or whatever you feel comfortable with. And lastly, ask your Bishop for a blessing and tell him about your struggles with everything. :)

Some may ask me why I joined if i never received proper confirmation. Others may say I did infact get it from my comments that I will write.

When I met my wife, I never knew she wa a Mormon and was only a little dissapointed to find out she was. I say a little becasue I knew nothing about them but it sounded weird if you know what i mean?

Anyway, as our relationship developed including her family and friends I began to learn a little more about the church, never intending to go any further than curiousity only. However, one day she informed me that she had decided that she wanted to go and do a temple service mission which devastated me, it really did! I wondered why someone would just get up and go, leaving me not being able to see her. I needed to understand why anyone would do such a thing so I agreed to take the missionary discussions just to find out about the church. Well, I was "comfortable" with much of what they were telling me. I was. I like the sound of Eternal Marriage" and one thing lead to another. I read many church leaflets about the 1st vision and being very open minded believed them. My prayers regarding the church still felt positively empty though. Still, after a fairly long period I decided to get baptized. I just assumed as i progressed the anser that it really was true would come along. I read the BoM from cover to cover and took the challenge. The answer never came.

Well I took to it like a duck to water and got stuck right in whilst my girlfriend (now wife) was away in the London Temple. Every day was really hard for me and i missed her terribly but I was now involved in what she believed so it was a little easier to bare.

I guess, I just wanted to believe it to be true so much I convinced myself it was. I conditioned my mind to just accept it.

So now I was never converted spiritually even though I thought I believed.

My wife is a lifelong member and attends every single week without fail. She is one of the most dilligent, caring people I know and she will do anything for anyone. She has never actually received a strong spiritual witness but still says she believes. I respec her totally. My childeren are too young to undestand these things fully but do ask me questions about why I no longer attend.

No, my life is now far from that of a faithful LDS. VERY FAR. I have packed my garment away, disregard the word of wisdom. Id just as well get my name removed.

Anyway, please no need to involve me in your prayers as nothing will come of it but I thank you so much for your sincere thoughts and care and your willingness to do this for me. Fasting and Prayer were very much a common thing for me but nothing ever came from my efforts involving fasting and prayer. Sorry, as for baring my testimony....I really struggle with the theory of baring atestimony to game testimony. IMO all that is that eventually you will convince yourself you have one. Blessings again wont help me. I have had bad experiences with them. Every blessing I have had say the same things. Most of the blessing I have received all tell me that "the lord blesses me with good health and is pleased with the way I have conducted my life". My health is awful and the way I live would not please the Lord.

So there you have it

Again thanks for your concerns.

[mike_uk]

I get uncomfortable when I hear peope speak about how demanding the Church is on our time and our testimonies, etc. I mean, I understand what they're saying, but I disagree with how it's being stated actually. I like the way C.S. Lewis puts it....He warned people to 'count the cost', before becoming christians. 'Make no mistake,' He says, 'if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconcievable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs me, I will never rest until you are literally perfect -- until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do.

It's not the Church that asks so much of me -- it's Heavenly Father. What did it cost Jesus to do this for us? If we have a testimony of the Atonement how can we possibly whine about what it costs us? My trials, my work, my everything are preparing me to meet Him face to face and hopefully, hopefully tell me He is well pleased with me.

I'm not posting to anyone in particular -- just needed to rant a little.

Well its probably me you are aiming this at and im not bothered at all. They to me are demands. No need to feel uncomfortable if you dont struggle to carry this weight. :)

Oh and I just dont believe that God runs all the progeammes of the church and the things we are supposed to do either so yes the church does demand much.

[candyprpl]

Oh mike_uk -- no really I wasn't saying it to anyone. I've seen these similar posts on other threads and I just couldn't stand it any longer -- I couldn't keep my own thoughts to myself any longer. AND I didn't want to offend anyone!!!

I'm really sorry that you weren't able to continue in Church. I don't have answers for you -- I wish I did. I can hear how much you love your wife and wish for her sake that you did have a testimony of the Church. It took miracles in my life to bring me thus far and so I don't want to sound self-righteous.

I just know that this Church is true and the gospel has been restored and that we are led by a prophet of God today.

[Misshalfway]

I get uncomfortable when I hear peope speak about how demanding the Church is on our time and our testimonies, etc. I mean, I understand what they're saying, but I disagree with how it's being stated actually. I like the way C.S. Lewis puts it....He warned people to 'count the cost', before becoming christians. 'Make no mistake,' He says, 'if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconcievable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs me, I will never rest until you are literally perfect -- until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do.

It's not the Church that asks so much of me -- it's Heavenly Father. What did it cost Jesus to do this for us? If we have a testimony of the Atonement how can we possibly whine about what it costs us? My trials, my work, my everything are preparing me to meet Him face to face and hopefully, hopefully tell me He is well pleased with me.

I'm not posting to anyone in particular -- just needed to rant a little.

I so hear what you are saying here. Don't know if you are referring to my post or not.

I think in the final analysis, everyone of us will be evaluated on our individual walk. You know each of these moments that we approach in life are all about what we choose, whether it is a difficult bishop who may not watch his tongue or a difficult situation that shows us one of our character flaws. I loved TG's comments about how no one can control us..... I mean each one of our reactions are in the end our personal responsibility. And I don't know about any of you, but coming face to face with myself isn't always the most pleasant of experiences. It is so much easier to blame the guy who hurt me.....or separate myself from potential blessings because of fear.

You are right Candy, it isn't about the church. It is about the Father the the finisher of our faith. It is about their invitations and the opportunities for personal growth that come to us in the form of adversity and agency. It is difficult, at least from this humans perspective, to always keep my eye on the ball and always keep my way clear and unclouded. It takes a great deal of courage to walk into the wind.....and to then thank the wind for blowing so hard.