Church finances

[Vort]

It's phrased in the present tense, FM. I have listened word for word many times.

[Moksha]

What else do you think we have that we could consecrate?

Our old comic book collection?

[NateHowe]

Hemidakota,

The answer is, of course, Yes. But that has not yet been asked. We are asked to tithe and to give our other offerings. We are not asked to give everything to the Church, which is the Kingdom of God on Earth. We accept and agree with the Law of Consecration, but it is not currently required of us.

Vort and others,

I am not now, nor will I ever be, in the mood to nitpick in public over the specific words of the Temple ceremonies. They are too sacred for this argument.

[funkymonkey]

sorry Nate you're right.

[Palerider]

Our old comic book collection?

The Baseball card collection....:)

[lilered]

But not included is my toenail collection.

[Vort]

The answer is, of course, Yes. But that has not yet been asked.

Actually, this is incorrect. We have indeed been asked to give all we have and all we are to the building up of the Church. This is not "in theory only", although I admit many who make such covenants do not always live by them, myself included.

We are asked to tithe and to give our other offerings. We are not asked to give everything to the Church, which is the Kingdom of God on Earth.

We have already agreed to it, whether or not it has been legally recognized.

We accept and agree with the Law of Consecration, but it is not currently required of us.

You are mistaken. We are indeed required to live the law of consecration. If you think we are not, then you do not understand what the law of consecration is. I suspect you are confusing the law of consecration with the "united order".

I am not now, nor will I ever be, in the mood to nitpick in public over the specific words of the Temple ceremonies. They are too sacred for this argument.

Then by all means, do not nitpick.

[funkymonkey]

Wow... love how this has to turn from a discussion into an argument...

Vort, Nate's post was totally correct. (which is why I extended that challenge to you before)

[Vort]

Wow... love how this has to turn from a discussion into an argument...

How is it an argument? Discussions comprise a back-and-forth. I have presented my evidence and await a rebuttal. (In this case, "rebuttal" consists of more than saying "nuh-uh".)

Vort, Nate's post was totally correct.

Actually, it was not, as I demonstrated.

(which is why I extended that challenge to you before)

And I responded.

[funkymonkey]

Yeah, anymore arguing is not worth my time. Have a nice day.

[Palerider]

Yeah, anymore arguing is not worth my time. Have a nice day.

ditto

[lilered]

So what is the point of all this.

Have we forgotten the sacrifice Jesus made or Abraham was willing to sacrifice (his son) when asked?

Are we willing to keep the covenants we made or aren't we concerning sacrifice. Whether it be Tithing, time, talent, etc.. I doubt we will ever be asked to give our son or daughters life?

[kona0197]

I'm not gonna pay tithing unless the Church gives me a detailed report of how it is spent. Otherwise is just bad business.

Besides the tithing scripture is from the old and fulfilled testament. The NT has newer rules.

Edited August 16, 2008 by kona0197

[lilered]

I'm not gonna pay tithing unless the Church gives me a detailed report of how it is spent. Otherwise is just bad business.

Besides the tithing scripture is from the old and fulfilled testament. The NT has newer rules.

Tithing isn't really about the money! It is about Faith and Obediance! Law of Tithing is also a latter day commandment given on July 8, 1838 to and by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

By taking the position you are taking, you realize that you are limiting yourself to enter the Temple of God and partake in further learning expierences, wisdom, and marriage covenants do you not? Not to forget the Blessings promised to those that do.

You of course are entitled to make your own choices, that is what this period of our life here on earth is for.

[kona0197]

Tithing isn't really about the money! It is about Faith and Obediance! Law of Tithing is also a latter day commandment given on July 8, 1838 to and by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

By taking the position you are taking, you realize that you are limiting yourself to enter the Temple of God and partake in further learning expierences, wisdom, and marriage covenants do you not? Not to forget the Blessings promised to those that do.

You of course are entitled to make your own choices, that is what this period of our life here on earth is for.

I question that commandment. Any religion that asks or demands money to stay involved and part of the church in my eyes is questionable.

As far as the Temple goes I really don't mind not going. I'm happy in my life where I'm at. Besides we can't get married without losing our income so there you have it.

Besides Mormon teachings say that I will end up in one of the lower Kingdoms in the end. As long as it's not a lake of fire I'm good with that.

[lilered]

I question that commandment. Any religion that asks or demands money to stay involved and part of the church in my eyes is questionable.

Your soul is worth so much more, why would you want to sell yourself so short?

The Bible indicates that God’s people followed the law of tithing anciently; through modern prophets, God restored this law once again to bless His children. These funds are used to build up the Church and further the work of the Lord throughout the world.

As far as the Temple goes I really don't mind not going. I'm happy in my life where I'm at. Besides we can't get married without losing our income so there you have it.

Temples are literally houses of the Lord. They are holy places of worship where individuals make sacred covenants with God. Because making covenants with God is such a solemn responsibility, individuals cannot enter the temple to receive their endowments or be sealed in marriage for eternity until they have fully prepared themselves and been members of the Church for at least a year. Throughout history, the Lord has commanded His people to build temples. The Church is working to build temples all over the world to make temple blessings more available for a greater number of Heavenly Father's children (With the use of Tithing Dollars)

Besides Mormon teachings say that I will end up in one of the lower Kingdoms in the end. As long as it's not a lake of fire I'm good with that.

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 76:92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants D&C 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

You have so much to offer, why be satisfied with the least of the Kingdoms?

Edited August 17, 2008 by lilered

[Rico]

I've been researching churches finances for like a year now (i know i have no life). The LDS church publishes its finances in 2 countries, the UK and Canada. In both countries they only spent 10%. everything else is reverted back to head quarters. That doesn't mean thats all the expenses for the church but maintain ward and stake budgets is a big one. I also talked to my dad who is a stake clerk. He said the same thing.

Almost every other church publishes financial reports every year and the expenses are huge. Its always around 90% spent for that same year. Savings isn't a part of the equation.

I think looking at how much tithing is taken in and then how much is distributed back in other ways is a more honest way to look at Church finances.

One of the most interesting facts I have learned is how much the Philippines mission spends on missionaries and materials for each new convert to the Church. I did some simple math. If a convert has a good job and tithes honestly, it will take about 4 years before his tithings equal the conversion expenses. That's assuming that they don't go inactive during that time.

That's just one expense of the Church. Take a look at the books. The Joseph Smith EQ book is an expensive one to print and distribute, but it's free. Look at Liahona. Subscriptions are 70 US cents per year in the Philippines. I'm sorry, but it's impossible to print up a glossy magazine and distribute it for just 6 cents an issue. That's a huge expense the Church covers.

Look at the Employment Resource Centers that the Church funds. These centers help both non-members and members find a job. The materials are free. The Church covers the expenses.

But none of this is really the crux of the matter. It all boils down to this, I think the Church is an excellent steward of our tithings.

[kona0197]

You have so much to offer, why be satisfied with the least of the Kingdoms?

Several reasons. I've never had a taste of the highest Kingdom so why try to end up there? Setting a goal to attain something unknown is a bit stupid. No offense.

I like my life the way it is. I would have to give up too many things in my life to conform to the LDS way of life. I've worked very hard for what I have. No thanks. Save your "but the blessings" speech as well. I've already heard it.

I'll just keep the beliefs I was raised with and be intrigued with mormon teachings for now.

Edited August 18, 2008 by kona0197

[prospectmom]

why be satisfied with the least of the Kingdoms

I do not think that Kona is alone with not being sure they want to make it to the Celestial Kingdom... It seems like such an unatainable goal and I am so glad for those who make it but I am just trying to survive here.......... stay on the right side....... not let life pull me down

[Hemidakota]

Why should anyone settle for less than which is attainable in this life?

[mnn727]

Did you know if the church ever published their finances, it would literally blow every other church finances out of the water. .

Are you a member? if so, do you pay an honest tithe?

Are you an accountant or auditor for the Church?

Or someone who justs throws out a controversial topic and then never returns to it - which you have not since the first day..

Edited August 18, 2008 by mnn727

[falisrm]

Sorry about that. The topic changed to the law of consecration which i didn't want to talk about. I kept checking on the thread to see if the topic would change and it has. Its not contriversal at all. I'm an active member and i have like a million comments with what people said.

First, members are already living the law of sacrifice, which is very close to the law of consecration. The law of sacrifice is a major portion of the gospel. Christ lived it when he sacrificed his will to the will of the father. The law of sacrifice was in the law of moses and its in our baptismal covenants. I think if members realised how well they lived the law of sacrifice, they would appreciate just how close to the gospel they really are. To literally give all your possessions to the church is not part of the gospel. But to sacrifice your time, talents and resources just like what members are doing now is part of the gospel.

Thats all christ ever talked about, was the law of sacrifice.

God wants all of us to be self reliant, not give everything they have and then have to rely on the church.

I have lots of comments for konna, like isn't it a good thing the church doesn't spend millions each year just on financial reports and accounting? That in and of it's self is a good indicator it's using its finances as wisely as possible. Sure, we would know the statements of the church but that doesn't do anything for anybody, except for someone like me who actually reads that stuff.

I was reading last week about tithing in the new testament. i had no idea there were so many scriptures about tithing. Paul was actually setting laws on those principles that moses followed.

Hebrews 7

I was a missionary in the philippines. The church there is different.

[falisrm]

I just read this report from ELCA. They have 4.7 million members in the US and their income is 2.8 billion. so roughly $700 per member.

ELCA Congregations Report 4.7 Million Members in 2007

Where would that place the LDS church?

Edited August 18, 2008 by falisrm

[california_ave]

I just read this report from ELCA. They have 4.7 million members in the US and their income is 2.8 billion. so roughly $700 per member.

ELCA Congregations Report 4.7 Million Members in 2007

Where would that place the LDS church?

If I remember correctly, the Ostling's book, Mormon America, estimated a figure of $5 or 6B--about twice the ELCA number you cite.

[Hemidakota]

Actually more than that....but the numbers means nothing. It is the offering from the members in either monetary or sacrifice of lives and time what really counts.

Tidbit....Huntington Beach has the most affluence members of the church by wealth. :)