Uncomfortable Doctrine

[candyprpl]

Bringing us to our senses? Very good. I agree with you.

HiJolly

Misshalfway is good about bringing us to our senses.

I have to admit that sometimes reading these posts I start getting real confused about what I'm suppose to believe and what I'm not to believe. But when I come to my senses and go back to what it was that converted me to this church, I can say in all honesty that this is the restored Church of Jesus Christ.:)

Ahhhh, mind at peace:D

[Guest ceeboo]

Ceeboo -- I think I can see something that will be helpful and confusing, all at once.

Mormons believe that men ARE gods. So if God was once a man as we now are, it's not a problem, because we ARE gods. Not will be, but are. This is because at our core we are intelligences, and intelligences are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal with God. He is greater than we, and got to where He is first, and is now leading us there to join Him.

I can see how a Catholic, with total adhereance to creeds, can be confused by all this. Joseph Smith couldn't stand creeds, and I'll bet he is as happy as a clam, looking down from heaven on all this discussion.

HiJolly

Hi HiJolly, ( everytime I type Hi HiJolly it seems so redundent )

I thought ( maybe I am wrong ) that Mormons believed they could become Gods ( attain)

not that they ARE Gods??

" Catholics with total adhereance to creeds "? No, not me, I rely totaly and completly on the words or JESUS in NT for the direction and mentorship in my life.

" JS couldn't stand creeds " I am painfully aware of that ( abomination ) Yes, I realize he claimed to be only the mouthpiece in that regard.

God bless,

Carl

Edited September 6, 2008 by ceeboo

[justamere10]

Ceeboo -- I think I can see something that will be helpful and confusing, all at once.

Mormons believe that men ARE gods. So if God was once a man as we now are, it's not a problem, because we ARE gods. Not will be, but are. This is because at our core we are intelligences, and intelligences are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal with God. He is greater than we, and got to where He is first, and is now leading us there to join Him.

I can see how a Catholic, with total adhereance to creeds, can be confused by all this. Joseph Smith couldn't stand creeds, and I'll bet he is as happy as a clam, looking down from heaven on all this discussion.

Let us be open to new beliefs (yes, Mormons & all), and live a life of devotion to God, trusting Him to lead us to where we need to be.

HiJolly

In my own (sometimes, working on it) humble way I'm going to respectfully disagree with you that all men are Gods, though that would be a sound way to work the problem.

Inside all things as I understand it is a portion of eternal "Intelligence". That portion does not make us a God anymore than it makes a plant (which also has a portion of Intelligence) a God. (As I see it.)

Unlike plants and lesser beings though, I do think that every human being is made in the image and likeness of God the Father because we are each POTENTIALLY Gods. Inherent in each human being is the potential to choose to become all evil (like Satan) and to choose to be all good (like God). It is those choices that ultimately will empower us to obtain the eternal degree of glory (God being all glory) our choices have made for us. The more right choices we make, the more we become like God.

Then, throw in temple ordinances and the new and everlasting covenant of eternal marriage (to be had only in temples) and we can BECOME Gods ourselves, with eternal lives, exaltation, and eternal increase. As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. God is willing to share with us everything He has.

Those things are not necessarily in our canonized scripture, that is perhaps why there is some confusion happening in this thread? But that's the way I personally (speaking for myself only) understand the matter.

[Guest ceeboo]

I don't know if this helps or not but the king follet discourse is not the keystone of our religion. The Book of Mormon is. It is thru this book that a man gets nearer to God. Any ideas from this discourse that are true are icing on the cake.

Hey ya Misshalfway, Good to see your contributions :)

How can a teaching from the founder and first prophet NOT be a keystone to the very religion he started???

Further, how does one choose which ( of his prophetic claims ) are or are not worthy of being said keystone???

God bless,

Carl

[candyprpl]

So, maybe, if some find this topic uncomfortable and don't want to understand the full meaning, maybe they will not be prepared for that particular station in Eternal life?

That's a question, not a statement.

[Vanhin]

Hey Vanhin,

I can certainly appreciate the need to go to work, even us Catholics need to do that:)

To " know your doctrine " ( teachings ) one would have to read the BofM and live the principles therin and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost?????:confused:

That would lead me to believe that non LDS people ( me ) who does not do the above can not and has no way of getting an answer as to what LDS believe or teach?????????

Our Church has made it clear that our doctrine is in our canon of scripture, which includes The Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. My point is that if you want to know our doctrine, it is in our scriptures. It doesn't mean that you can not get correct doctrine from others, including leaders, missionaries, or members. You can, when what they are teaching you is in harmony with the scriptures.

Getting MORE confused ( if that is possible )

Peace,

Carl

Don't be confused about what I said concerning living the principles in the scriptures. That method of learning doctrine is not my idea. Jesus Christ taught:

...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. (John 17:16-18)

We claim that our doctrine is the doctrine of Jesus Christ, or in other words, the doctrine God the Father.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[bmy-]

Hey ya Misshalfway, Good to see your contributions :)

How can a teaching from the founder and first prophet NOT be a keystone to the very religion he started???

Further, how does one choose which ( of his prophetic claims ) are or are not worthy of being said keystone???

God bless,

Carl

I think she Misshalfway was saying that our 'standard works' are the keystone. The BOM, Bible, Pearl, D&C, and most importantly (imo) revelation. I often wonder why the KFD isn't canon.. it's supported by the church already.

I'd choose a prophet over the BOM any day. But that's just me. (And i'm a heretic )

[Guest ceeboo]

Ceeboo, with all do respect (I mean that):) you don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and you (IMO) aren't trying to understand what he may have been trying to teach us about God.:)

Hello candyprpl,

Obviously, I do not believe JS was a prophet, however this personal belief does not in any way deflect my reasonable ability to read what someone said and understand it.

I would very respectfully offer that if 100 academic scholars read the same thing as I did,

ALL 100 of them would very easily determine what was said in that sermon. For the life of me, I can not understand why LDS members will not accept the teachings of their very first prophet??????????

God bless,

Carl

[Vort]

I would very respectfully offer that if 100 academic scholars read the same thing as I did,

ALL 100 of them would very easily determine what was said in that sermon. For the life of me, I can not understand why LDS members will not accept the teachings of their very first prophet??????????

I haven't read this thread all the way through (and given its length, I don't plan to do so), so I am not sure which teaching you think Joseph Smith offered that LDS members don't accept.

However, I would point out that the funeral sermon for Elder Follett was not recorded in any official capacity, but was pieced together from accounts of those who did hear it, or in some cases perhaps heard it from someone who heard it. In such cases, it's difficult to determine precisely what the Prophet said. When an important doctrinal point hinges on a single word, phrase, or expression (e.g. "God was as we are" vs. "God was once mortal" vs. "God was once sinful"), such precision of wording becomes important. When that precision is lacking, no larger gospel doctrine can safely be drawn from the record.

[bytor2112]

Hello candyprpl,

Obviously, I do not believe JS was a prophet, however this personal belief does not in any way deflect my reasonable ability to read what someone said and understand it.

I would very respectfully offer that if 100 academic scholars read the same thing as I did,

ALL 100 of them would very easily determine what was said in that sermon. For the life of me, I can not understand why LDS members will not accept the teachings of their very first prophet??????????

God bless,

Carl

Ceeboo,

A strong testimony of Joseph Smith is a good indication of a strong testimony in the Restored Gospel.....IMO. I absolutely accept the teachings of our great Prophet.....as do most faithful Saints. I tend to look at this bit of deep doctrine like this.......we are eternal beings, our Spirits..and one day our physical bodies will be uncorruptable as well. The Savior had to attain a mortal body and work out his salvation as well......

From Elder Bruce R McConkie:

Christ worked out his own salvation. This is something of which uninspired men have no comprehension. Truly, he was the Lord Omnipotent before the world was; truly, he was like unto the Father in the premortal life; truly, he was the Son of God here on earth--and yet, with it all, as with all the spirit children of the same Father, he too was subject to all of the terms and conditions of the Father's plan.

He also was born on earth to undergo a mortal probation, to die, to rise again in immortal glory, to be judged according to his works, and to receive his place of infinite glory in the eternal kingdom of his Everlasting Father. How well Paul said:

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author [that is, the cause] of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. [Hebrews 5: 8*9]

[Misshalfway]

I haven't read this thread all the way through (and given its length, I don't plan to do so), so I am not sure which teaching you think Joseph Smith offered that LDS members don't accept.

However, I would point out that the funeral sermon for Elder Follett was not recorded in any official capacity, but was pieced together from accounts of those who did hear it, or in some cases perhaps heard it from someone who heard it. In such cases, it's difficult to determine precisely what the Prophet said. When an important doctrinal point hinges on a single word, phrase, or expression (e.g. "God was as we are" vs. "God was once mortal" vs. "God was once sinful"), such precision of wording becomes important. When that precision is lacking, no larger gospel doctrine can safely be drawn from the record.

Thank you Vort.

Ceeboo, this is part of what I was trying to explain to you on another thread.

You have to understand one thing about this church. The "Rock" we have been talking about is revelation....for us. :) That means that a fallible man can receive a revelation from God. Those prophets are not perfect. We accept that they are not perfect. We also accept that not every single word that comes from their lips is revelation. Joseph made sure that the people knew that he was not a perfect person and not to expect him to be.

We believe that Joseph was a prophet and we look to what he did produce in terms of solid doctrinal revelation as a catalyst for our own personal revelation on the subject. We dont' believe Joseph just because he said he saw God and Jesus in a vision in a grove of trees one day. We believe because we have asked God and received our own personal witness that what happened that day and what happened on subsequent other days was in fact the truth. That is the rock of the church. That is the rock that sustains all of us. We are encouraged to listen to what comes from the pulpit and and understand the difference between what a prophet proclaims to the world vs. what he says in his backyard. And the Spirit will confirm or disprove it all. Ceeboo, this is beauty of this religion. This is why we can speculate and discuss and disagree even. We are all at different places with regards to how much "confirmation" from the Spirit we have received.

These discussions about "godhood" are interesting aspects of our doctrine and there is truth there. But I have said it before and I will say it again. The line between solid doctrinal foundation and speculation gets blurry because we don't know enough!!!! These are fascinating ideas. And for those of us who do understand the basics of our faith, they make sense.... even the blurry parts and it is ok for us to say we don't know yet and that it doesn't matter for our salvation.

I wish Ceeboo, that you would look more to understanding the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression, rather than hanging onto the Follett discourse. What Vort said is exactly right. We don't have an accurate record of what was said that day. That is why it hasn't been added to our canon. It is the BofM that we hang everything on and the First vision of the Joseph Smith! Please try to understand the priority in which we put these ideas.

I wish I could convince you to start over. Put the King Follett thing aside. And read the Book of Mormon. Then.....Look at the First vision. Look at the Doctrine and Covenants. And then ....... factor in the follett!

Edited September 5, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Moksha]

I don't know if this helps or not but the king follet discourse is not the keystone of our religion. The Book of Mormon is. It is thru this book that a man gets nearer to God. Any ideas from this discourse that are true are icing on the cake.

This is not a cut to the Book of Mormon, but Jesus being the Christ is the keystone of my religion.

[Misshalfway]

This is not a cut to the Book of Mormon, but Jesus being the Christ is the keystone of my religion.

K. Now we are both back in seminary! :) Isn't Christ the cornerstone? :)

[bytor2112]

I wish Ceeboo, that you would look more to understanding the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression, rather than hanging onto the Follett discourse. What Vort said is exactly right. We don't have an accurate record of what was said that day. That is why it hasn't been added to our canon. It is the BofM that we hang everything on and the First vision of the Joseph Smith! Please try to understand the priority in which we put these ideas.

I agree Misshalfway........the Plan of Salvation is simple enough for all mankind, even children, to understand and accept. Our greatest example of how we should pattern our lives and of what we can become is the Savior himself. He passed through this life, working out his own salvation and passing through trials and death, was resurected to eternal glory and ransomed mankind from the fall. All we must do is have faith in him and obey his commandments....and one day we can become like him. Pretty simple.

[Moksha]

K. Now we are both back in seminary! :) Isn't Christ the cornerstone? :)

That's right. In masonry there are such things as keystones, cornerstones and capstones. Well, like Bob Dylan said, "Everybody must get stoned". Perhaps in this case we should put our shoulder to the wheel and push along...

[Misshalfway]

That's right. In masonry there are such things as keystones, cornerstones and capstones. Well, like Bob Dylan said, "Everybody must get stoned". Perhaps in this case we should put our shoulder to the wheel and push along...

:lol::lol::lol:

[Vort]

This is not a cut to the Book of Mormon, but Jesus being the Christ is the keystone of my religion.

Christ = cornerstone

Book of Mormon = keystone

Doctrine & Covenants = capstone

Gazelem = seerstone

Baptism = milestone

Diamond = birthstone

Hell = brimstone

Georgetown = brownstone

That should just about cover it.

[a-train]

Hey a-train,

:confused: I thought I shared a few of the quotes from his sermon that were IMHO very obvious that he ( JS ) indeed claimed that God was once man like us on a different earth, an exalted man, etc . In addition to my last posts examples from his sermon, JS also encourages us to " become Gods ourselves ".

I am still confused if you are " among those LDS who do not accept the prophetized teachings of JS himself " but I can suggest that with a simple review of this thread, there are indeed many who seem not to accept JS teachings.

God bless,

Carl

Yes, he DID say that God is an exalted man. But he did NOT say that God was ever not God. When God came to earth to live as man, He never laid aside His Godhood. The Eternal God endured mortality, but this doesn't in any way mean that He was at some point not God. Can you see the difference?

-a-train

[a-train]

Mormons believe that men ARE gods.

Not only do Mormons believe it, but the Bible says it.

The Psalmist wrote the sad review:

Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 82nd Psalm

But wait a-train, that doesn't mean that men are gods! You misinterpret that!

Well, how does Jesus use that verse?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? - John 10:33-36

The interpretation can be no other way if our LORD's use of it is any defence.

-a-train

Edited September 5, 2008 by a-train

[bmy-]

Again.. I love this quote and I think it (once again) applies to the conversation.

My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.

KFD

"My father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling.. "

Our Fathers Kingdom would be His salvation (or exaltation, not splitting hairs). In order to work out a Kingdom you must need salvation.

Unless I totally miss my mark of course.

[Guest TheLutheran]

You probably didn't notice, but I've been riding shotgun with you throughout this thread. I applaud you for your perseverence and diplomacy. As a fellow Non-Mon with no other agenda than to try to understand, it has been a very interesting yet confusing journey!!

Thank you to all the posters (too many to name specifically) who have tirelessly provided input and insight. Your dedication is appreciated!

Hey . . . what happened to dear Fiona84? Did we lose her along this bumpy trail?

[candyprpl]

Thank you Vort.

Ceeboo, this is part of what I was trying to explain to you on another thread.

You have to understand one thing about this church. The "Rock" we have been talking about is revelation....for us. :) That means that a fallible man can receive a revelation from God. Those prophets are not perfect. We accept that they are not perfect. We also accept that not every single word that comes from their lips is revelation. Joseph made sure that the people knew that he was not a perfect person and not to expect him to be.

We believe that Joseph was a prophet and we look to what he did produce in terms of solid doctrinal revelation as a catalyst for our own personal revelation on the subject. We dont' believe Joseph just because he said he saw God and Jesus in a vision in a grove of trees one day. We believe because we have asked God and received our own personal witness that what happened that day and what happened on subsequent other days was in fact the truth. That is the rock of the church. That is the rock that sustains all of us. We are encouraged to listen to what comes from the pulpit and and understand the difference between what a prophet proclaims to the world vs. what he says in his backyard. And the Spirit will confirm or disprove it all. Ceeboo, this is beauty of this religion. This is why we can speculate and discuss and disagree even. We are all at different places with regards to how much "confirmation" from the Spirit we have received.

These discussions about "godhood" are interesting aspects of our doctrine and there is truth there. But I have said it before and I will say it again. The line between solid doctrinal foundation and speculation gets blurry because we don't know enough!!!! These are fascinating ideas. And for those of us who do understand the basics of our faith, they make sense.... even the blurry parts and it is ok for us to say we don't know yet and that it doesn't matter for our salvation.

I wish Ceeboo, that you would look more to understanding the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression, rather than hanging onto the Follett discourse. What Vort said is exactly right. We don't have an accurate record of what was said that day. That is why it hasn't been added to our canon. It is the BofM that we hang everything on and the First vision of the Joseph Smith! Please try to understand the priority in which we put these ideas.

I wish I could convince you to start over. Put the King Follett thing aside. And read the Book of Mormon. Then.....Look at the First vision. Look at the Doctrine and Covenants. And then ....... factor in the follett!

Ceeboo,

Misshalfway (and Vort too)has said it much better than my feable attempt has been. But she has said exactly what is true for me.

Of what Misshalfway has so eloquently said, don't you understand. Because, it seems to me, you keep having the same questions and we don't seem to be answering them for you.:)

I know I appear quite ignorant (and I really don't mind that). I know that I've come to Christ as a child and that I am learning. Having said that, I also know that I do have some wisdom to pass on -- and I hope that is respected.:)

[Hemidakota]

Again.. I love this quote and I think it (once again) applies to the conversation.

"My father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling.. "

Our Fathers Kingdom would be His salvation (or exaltation, not splitting hairs). In order to work out a Kingdom you must need salvation.

Unless I totally miss my mark of course.

Perfect quote....I do follow the same course - "...with fear and trembling.";)

[prisonchaplain]

Your premortal spirit body from the time it was created by Heavenly Father was distinct from mine and had the power to act for itself and make choices. It was created in the image and likeness of God. That spirit body continues to live after the death of the physical body and has opportunity to learn and progress.

Regarding the always existent "cloud of unknowing" or "intelligence" as the LDS call it, my guess is that there is no individual sentience, it's all one. But of course that is 100% speculation on my part.

I think that everything that exists has some of that intelligence within it: humans, plants, fish, animals, stones, etc. Even the earth is known in our scriptures to have a voice and speak. (The very stones we are told would have cried out if the people had not fulfilled prophesy when the Christ rode into Jerusalem on the donkey.)

But the important thing for this lifetime is our personal relationship with God and how well we keep His commandments and walk the way Jesus taught. My guess is that we will learn much more about "intelligence" at a more appropriate time.

Thank you very much (I gave you a point too :D)! I realize we're in an area of theological speculation, but your suggestions have helped me understand better. I had thought that LDS teaching was that we had an individual eternal pre-existence. If so, then, perhaps we're all Gods in the making? BUT, if that pre-existent pre-Spirit (new idea for me as well--I assumed our spiritual existence was eternal) existence was not individual...well this clears up some of your teachings for me. I'll give mormon.org a good looking-at--especially the premortal existence--it's probably time I got all the information that is official, eh?

[Hemidakota]

The thing we need to remember for us Saints, when the Lord returns, there will be other religions still functioning.

PC, I for one do read your posts and know how you feel [being a convert to the church].