Uncomfortable Doctrine

[a-train]

To claim that God has never endured manhood, death, and resurrection is to simply deny Christ. No Christian can deny it. The New Testament is full of the notion.

-a-train

[Yellowhill]

I am just a new convert, and I am wondering around here seeing what this is all about. i grew up Luthern and that kind of fizzed. Then i got into mediation for a steady 10 years plus. then that staw melted into my mouth. my daugher who has been a member for ten years helped me along. Then the sisters missionaries did there talks. I broke down with the first vision of my Heavenly Father and his Son my Saviour when they visited here on earth. Like and old fish I took the hole sinker bait and line. It was a Devine revelation for me. Two weeks ago was the first i heard about my Heavenly Mother. It made perfect sense to me. Now I do believe that if we exalt ourselfs in the way our lords wants we too become Goodheads. Our Heavenly Father has many mansions if this was not truth he would not say it

[Elphaba]

NOW THAT was a post ( elphaba like :) )

HEY! I SAW THAT!

"elphaba like" I can't tell if I hate it or if I love it!

The nerve.

Elphaba

[Hemidakota]

I am just a new convert, and I am wondering around here seeing what this is all about. i grew up Luthern and that kind of fizzed. Then i got into mediation for a steady 10 years plus. then that staw melted into my mouth. my daugher who has been a member for ten years helped me along. Then the sisters missionaries did there talks. I broke down with the first vision of my Heavenly Father and his Son my Saviour when they visited here on earth. Like and old fish I took the hole sinker bait and line. It was a Devine revelation for me. Two weeks ago was the first i heard about my Heavenly Mother. It made perfect sense to me. Now I do believe that if we exalt ourselfs in the way our lords wants we too become Goodheads. Our Heavenly Father has many mansions if this was not truth he would not say it

When I think about HER, I would swell up with tears. I await that day to embrace HER and our FATHER.

[candyprpl]

I am just a new convert, and I am wondering around here seeing what this is all about. i grew up Luthern and that kind of fizzed. Then i got into mediation for a steady 10 years plus. then that staw melted into my mouth. my daugher who has been a member for ten years helped me along. Then the sisters missionaries did there talks. I broke down with the first vision of my Heavenly Father and his Son my Saviour when they visited here on earth. Like and old fish I took the hole sinker bait and line. It was a Devine revelation for me. Two weeks ago was the first i heard about my Heavenly Mother. It made perfect sense to me. Now I do believe that if we exalt ourselfs in the way our lords wants we too become Goodheads. Our Heavenly Father has many mansions if this was not truth he would not say it

Wonderfully said!:)

[prisonchaplain]

To claim that God has never endured manhood, death, and resurrection is to simply deny Christ. No Christian can deny it. The New Testament is full of the notion.

-a-train

To teach the incarnation--that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us--is a wee bit different from teaching that our God was at some point not God.

[Guest ceeboo]

HEY! I SAW THAT!

"elphaba like" I can't tell if I hate it or if I love it!

The nerve.

Elphaba

Hello Elphaba,

I sincerly offered that as a true complimant.:):)

To one day have the seasoned ability to post " Elphaba like ,is indeed a goal I have set for myself.:):)

Thanks for all your MONUMENTAL contributions.:)

God bless,

Carl

[candyprpl]

God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That is my understanding. I don't see anything else being taught.:)

[justamere10]

To teach the incarnation--that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us--is a wee bit different from teaching that our God was at some point not God.

The difference is a difference of understanding about the nature of God.

To the Latter-day Saints, God is literally our Heavenly Parent and, the same as a natural father of a physical body will always be that natural father, God the Father will always be the "natural" Father of our spirit body.

Jesus Christ is "God" by virtue of being a member of the Godhead, but he is not God the Father as he is apparently thought to be by those who accept the trinity concept. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

So, for Latter-day Saints, God the Father was not at some point not our Heavenly Parent (unless we existed in some form prior to the creation of our spirit body.) But "God" did become incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ, a member of the Godhead.

We think of the Godhead as being similar to the First Presidency of the LDS Church. A President (similar to God the Father) and two Counselors (each called "President".) The counselors in the Godhead are Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Does that make sense?

[Justice]

To teach the incarnation--that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us--is a wee bit different from teaching that our God was at some point not God.

PC, we could have a long talk about this. It really is scriptural, it just depends on how you interpret scripture. I rely on a prophet to guide my beliefs into the truth. Doing it on our own is most difficult. Believing what the world believes as truth, from my experience, is probably not going to get you there. The trinity is false doctrine.

Either God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith as 2 separate, tangible beings, or they didn't. That they appeared to him in trinity form is not even part of the equation. That's what is really at the heart of this discussion. And, there's only 1 way to know for sure.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Justice

[prisonchaplain]

The difference is a difference of understanding about the nature of God.

To the Latter-day Saints, God is literally our Heavenly Parent and, the same as a natural father of a physical body will always be that natural father, God the Father will always be the "natural" Father of our spirit body.

Jesus Christ is "God" by virtue of being a member of the Godhead, but he is not God the Father as he is apparently thought to be by those who accept the trinity concept. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I suppose a simple way to explain our different views on the nature of God would be to explain what happened at creation. When we Protestants and Catholics read Genesis 1 we are simple in our reading. In the beginning God...meaning nothing else but God. For indeed, he created--he brought into being. And, Moses tells us that prior to this creation, the world was formless...VOID. Then God, our Father, our MAKER, created the world, and then created our parents, Adam and Eve. This view is in stark contrast to the LDS belief... of that I am aware.

As for Jesus--no we do not believe that Jesus is the Father. This seems to be a common misperception of trinitarian teaching. Jesus is the Son. He is not the Father. However, he is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, as is the Spirit. And they are the one true and living God.

So, for Latter-day Saints, God the Father was not at some point not our Heavenly Parent (unless we existed in some form prior to the creation of our spirit body.) But "God" did become incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ, a member of the Godhead.

But if God was once what we are--if he progressed to Godhood, then was he not once a man, as we are? And if so, how could he have been our Heavenly Father, and at the same time be a mere man?

[Moksha]

But if God was once what we are--if he progressed to Godhood, then was he not once a man, as we are? And if so, how could he have been our Heavenly Father, and at the same time be a mere man?

Sort of like the once and future king?

[Hemidakota]

As explained those who inherit the Celestial state, one of three possibilities:

1 - God and Goddess

2 - King and Queens

3 - Priest and Priestess

[justamere10]

I suppose a simple way to explain our different views on the nature of God would be to explain what happened at creation. When we Protestants and Catholics read Genesis 1 we are simple in our reading. In the beginning God...meaning nothing else but God. For indeed, he created--he brought into being. And, Moses tells us that prior to this creation, the world was formless...VOID. Then God, our Father, our MAKER, created the world, and then created our parents, Adam and Eve. This view is in stark contrast to the LDS belief... of that I am aware.

As for Jesus--no we do not believe that Jesus is the Father. This seems to be a common misperception of trinitarian teaching. Jesus is the Son. He is not the Father. However, he is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, as is the Spirit. And they are the one true and living God.

But if God was once what we are--if he progressed to Godhood, then was he not once a man, as we are? And if so, how could he have been our Heavenly Father, and at the same time be a mere man?

It's unfortunate in my opinion that so many people close their minds to the possibility that God might have spoken to more prophets than are included in the few books selected from among many others by councils of men to appear in what we call today the "Bible". Or that He ceased to speak to a living Prophet and living Apostles in our time. It's obvious from the apparently tens of thousands of Christian denominations that the Bible in itself is not enough.

Because we have more than just the Bible in our canon, Latter-day Saints understand that it was Jesus Christ who created this world, under the direction of God the Father.

For example, in the beginning God created the earth. That doesn't exclude others working under His direction. It is common for us to give fame to a leader when it was actually those working under his/her direction that did the work. God the Father also created Adam and Eve, our spirit brother and sister.

Latter-day Saints understand from our scriptures that the world was first created in spirit form, and later manifest in physical form. (I realize that I'm rambling, I'm in a bit of a rush right now and there is so very much that can be added to the knowledge we have from the bible.)

Regarding Jesus and the Holy Spirit, as I wrote previously, to Latter-day Saints they are separate beings. It is extremely confusing to me to try to comprehend a being whose image and likeness I am made in somehow having three persons inside Him, and then somehow splitting off one of those persons to be born on earth as our Savior. I just can't grasp that, it's much simpler to understand that they are three actual people.

You write: "But if God was once what we are--if he progressed to Godhood, then was he not once a man, as we are? And if so, how could he have been our Heavenly Father, and at the same time be a mere man?"

Yes, it is easy for me to understand that God our Father could once have been a man as I am, in the same manner that Jesus Christ (whom you acknowledge as "God") was once a man. (Though in His case, God the Father was the father of his physical as well as his spirit body.)

If God the Father was once a man working through the same kind of experience we are now working through, at that time He was NOT our Heavenly Father because we did NOT exist even in spirit form. That came later after He had gained His exaltation and created His own spirit children (us).

[bmy-]

If God the Father was once a man working through the same kind of experience we are now working through, at that time He was NOT our Heavenly Father because we did NOT exist even in spirit form. That came later after He had gained His exaltation and created His own spirit children (us).

"Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end..." (KFD)

"...But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement."

(KFD)

I often wonder.. 'how' it all works. Specifically reproduction on our Heavenly Fathers 'level'. Intelligence is eternal -- but were our 'spirit bodies'?

For all I (we?) know.. we were part of some collective conscious ['something'] until it was time to inhabit our spiritual bodies.

Edited September 4, 2008 by bmy-

[richlittell]

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.

I agree. A little off topic, that reminds me of what Paul said concerning marriage, which most people entirely overlook. He says:

1Cornthians7:6

6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

So even if it's scripture, we have a case where an apostle took what he thought was a well informed position, and I am grateful he went further in clarifying that it was his personal stance but not a commandment. I wish our founders would have done that more often, but they spoke on such a myriad of topics, that might be asking too much of them.

I think we should realize that scripture does not equate to truth, it equates to man's attempt to relay God's truth as best he can. Even Mormon said (was it Mormon?) if there are errors in this book, they are the errors of men, so don't hold it against the Lord or the scriptures themselves (obviously, I'm paraphrasing).

Of course, I don't go looking for errors and feel it's my duty to accept the scriptures as true and wait for the day the Lord might clarify some inconsequential errors (I say inconsequential, because there are no errors that are relevant to our understanding of salvation).

[richlittell]

I often wonder.. 'how' it all works. Specifically reproduction on our Heavenly Fathers 'level'. Intelligence is eternal -- but were our 'spirit bodies'?

For all I (we?) know.. we were part of some collective conscious until it was time to inhabit our spiritual bodies.

Now there's food for thought.

[bmy-]

Now there's food for thought.

And i'm supposed to be studying Chem II.

[richlittell]

I suppose a simple way to explain our different views on the nature of God would be to explain what happened at creation. When we Protestants and Catholics read Genesis 1 we are simple in our reading. In the beginning God...meaning nothing else but God. For indeed, he created--he brought into being. And, Moses tells us that prior to this creation, the world was formless...VOID. Then God, our Father, our MAKER, created the world, and then created our parents, Adam and Eve. This view is in stark contrast to the LDS belief... of that I am aware.

As for Jesus--no we do not believe that Jesus is the Father. This seems to be a common misperception of trinitarian teaching. Jesus is the Son. He is not the Father. However, he is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, as is the Spirit. And they are the one true and living God.

But if God was once what we are--if he progressed to Godhood, then was he not once a man, as we are? And if so, how could he have been our Heavenly Father, and at the same time be a mere man?

We do refer to Christ sometimes as the Father, by the way, but only in the sense that we are his sons and daughters through the atonement.

Something you might ponder:

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

If we consider that Jesus Christ is the "Word" we then know that it was he that created this world (v.3). So how do we know that the "Word" in this specific example refers to "Jesus Christ" (paying special attention to v.10 and v.14)

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[richlittell]

Hmmm, another thought, If we take my above quote further to the fact that Christ said, [paraphrase] I have done nothing but what I have seen my Father do.. Then it is not a far leap to suppose that Heavenly Father was once a man just like Jesus Christ was a man, but a man as God in the flesh.

Does anyone have that reference to the scripture that I paraphrased?

[Hemidakota]

"To do the things you have seen me do, as I have come to do what I have seen my Father do. The words which I speak, I speak not of myself; but the Father who dwells in me, he doeth the works."

[justamere10]

I often wonder.. 'how' it all works. Specifically reproduction on our Heavenly Fathers 'level'. Intelligence is eternal -- but were our 'spirit bodies'?

For all I (we?) know.. we were part of some collective conscious ['something'] until it was time to inhabit our spiritual bodies.

There are ways to understand this. Allow me to try to outline one way that works for me.

There is no physical body until conception. But those beginning cells were not created out of nothing, they already existed in unorganized form.

There is no spirit body until exalted resurrected beings create it. But that creation too is not made out of nothing. The distinct awareness that is embodied in that spirit body already existed in unorganized form.

That unorganized form, that which makes us co-eternal with our Heavenly Parent/s is known to Latter-day Saints as "intelligence" and to others by such names as "cloud of unknowing" etc.

Because within each of us are portions of light and truth ("intelligence"), we are much greater beings than we could ever conceive of in our mortal minds, and we are intimately interconnected with everything. During meditation we can sometimes become aware of that.

We are now having an earthly experience, learning opposites and making choices that will determine what eternal weight of glory we will be allowed to possess as resurrected beings. Those who get their exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of our God will eventually be taught how to create and animate spirit bodies and have eternal increase of their own.

Of course most of the above is mere speculation, and not LDS doctrine. Decide for yourself what is of value to you (if anything) and accept or reject whatever, it's your choice.

[Hemidakota]

Let me add some fuel to the fire [Discourses of Joseph Smith]:

Intelligence Exists Eternally

Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven. . . .

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. . . . (HC 6:311.)

and some coal....

The Spirit of Man Not Created

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. (HC 3:387.)

[justamere10]

Let me add some fuel to the fire [Discourses of Joseph Smith]:

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. (HC 3:387.)

"The spirit of man" is most likely referring to a portion of "intelligence" which is co-eternal with God, and not referring to the spirit body (animated by intelligence as physical bodies are animated by the spirit body?) which God created for us??

[Vort]

If God created our decision-making capacity, then God is responsible for our decisions, and agency is a sham. It's as simple as that.

Whatever it is, "intelligence" is certainly far more than merely "spirit element".