when is it a date?

[kmoore]

All,

OK, on the surface this seems like a pretty easy question. In my day a date consisted of a guy picking up a girl and going to a movie .... guy pays, etc. I lived out in the country, not many mormon's around and we pretty much stayed on the farm.

But the reality of today is pretty different. Kids often just hang out together. They'll go to a friends for video's, off to the mall, or whatever the idea de'jour is. Older kids sometimes drive, otherwise parents are usually shuffling.

Today, my son asked about going to homecoming. He's newly 15 and knows we don't date at this age. But he seemed to have it worked out. A girl chum is somekind of royalty in this dance. He's not into her (I totally believe him, he likes a girl on the other side of town). He's helping this girl by being her escort, they are covering thier own expenses.

So, I'm torn. Feels harmless enough. I really feel that the spirit of dating isn't here. But I don't want to establish a bad precedent, for my other children or for other parents (don't you just hate it when others have radically different standards that your kids want to copy :) )

It got me thinking about what constitutes a date. I feel sure that it is in the hearts of the participants, but that doesn't help me as their parent.

I've got some ideas .. but I'll stop now and see what others think.

[deydream]

Homecoming is a date, even if they are just friends. Once you say yes to something, it will be hard to say no later, even if it is for good intentions.

You may feel guilty now for saying no, but down the road you will be glad you did. Kids who start early in dating situations, often marry earlier or have premarital relations. Better safe than sorry.

Edited September 9, 2008 by deydream
spelling

[Soulsearcher]

I honestly think it depends on the child. You as a parent know your child better than anyone here. you can get a text book answer, but that being said, you in the end know better than any of us.

I myself would allow it, for more than one reason. first off he's trying to be a friend, and in a way trying to do an act of service. Second i think it's a good thing for the girl in question, he seems to be a better choice of escort than some of the other choices and he'll be likely to behave if he embraces the teachings of the church, and he can set an example.

I see it as an exercise in trust myself, though i would also set rules. You take them there, you pick them up, ect ect ect....

As for early daters marrying earlier.....i know far more lds people who followed the rules to the T who married at 18-19 than others who married much later, and i could debate the premarital relations statistic as well...

[kmoore]

got a little more info from him. She was elected royalty but hadn't really run and wasn't planning on going.

He swears that no one (i.e. in his circle of friends) considers homecoming a date. I know for me it would have been considered a date, but certainly plenty has changed since those ancient times :)

But this is why my question really is: What is dating. I think the lines have blurred quite a bit since my last date ... oops, I mean since I was married :)

Thanks for the advice.

BTW, his older brother has never really been interested in "dating" and mostly just hangs out, and not just with one, which I thought was way cool. But alas, my children are different :) who'd have thunk it.

[BenRaines]

If he goes you have opened Pandora's box for the rest of the kids. Good luck with your decision.

Ben Raines

[littlemisschatterbox]

Homecoming isn't really a date. People say they are "going together" but at my school, everyone just goes to the football game and hangs out.

[deydream]

Hanging out can be a date, homecoming is a date. It doesn't matter if kids say they don't consider it a date, it still is. My parents had certain rules for hanging out with friends, before I turned 16. And I had rules for dating.

You also have to think about the example you are setting for your kids if you decide to keep some of the prophets commandments but not others. Be careful that it doesn't appear that you are keeping only the ones that are convenient for you.

You are the parent, you will have to decide. Sure, some who keep all the rules still marry early while others don't. If you are unsure as to what to do, read "For the Strenght of Youth" pamphlet and talk to your Bishop about dating rules. I'm sure he can give you some help.

[abqfriend]

I am a Catholic and I would agree. Dating today has changed-years ago--I am in my 50's, a date was a date!-the guy picked up the girl, met the parents, etc, etc.

Today-it is less clear-unfortunately.

Some teens use the term "hooking up." Unfortunately-this term sometimes mean a physical "hooking up." Which would go against my definition of correct behavior and yours.

As parents-we can give our children examples-hopefully good examples that they will follow as the grow and mature in life, values and their faith tradition.

A focus on a strong family environment helps much in this world of casual dating and other casual behaviors.

-Carol

Hanging out can be a date, homecoming is a date. It doesn't matter if kids say they don't consider it a date, it still is. My parents had certain rules for hanging out with friends, before I turned 16. And I had rules for dating.

You also have to think about the example you are setting for your kids if you decide to keep some of the prophets commandments but not others. Be careful that it doesn't appear that you are keeping only the ones that are convenient for you.

You are the parent, you will have to decide. Sure, some who keep all the rules still marry early while others don't. If you are unsure as to what to do, read "For the Strenght of Youth" pamphlet and talk to your Bishop about dating rules. I'm sure he can give you some help.

[piper]

What I've taught my children is that dating shouldn't begin until age 16 and then it should be group dating with several young men and young women that aren't pairing up if that makes sense. Going with someone to homecoming in my day involved dinner beforehand and then a dance after the game , yes, it was a long time ago. So to me, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably some kind of duck. I wish you the best on working through this with your son. Either way, if you tell him no, or if you decide to let him go, I would hope you do it in concert with him exploring all of your concerns, and his concerns so that you keep the path of communication open.

mark

Edited September 11, 2008 by piper

[Jbs2763]

I ain't gonna touch this one... I'm in the YSA world and have no clue what a date is, when its hanging out, when it is a group hang, or a group date....i have no freakin idea, I have no idea when a girl is flirting or being freindly, i can sit and have a 20 min conversation with a girl that I thought was no way interested in me, may not be, Or i can and do get "HEY ASK ME OUT SILLY" vibes from a gal who is attached to a dude who is way above my class (lower-middle/blue collar) and he's working on his PhD,

ARRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[KrazyKay]

I just skimmed the posts, so someone may have said this.

I consider dating anytime boys and girls pair off. So a dance would be a date if the boy and girl pair together. If they go to the dance seperately, dance together but also dance with many other kids, then I wouldn't consider it a date. Also, if they go together, but dance with many other kids while there, I also wouldn't consider it a date. It's if they only dance with each other and no one else, then I would consider the dance a date.

The same if a group goes to the park and just hangs out - if they pair up while hanging out, it's still a date in my book, but if they don't pair up, then it's not.

[kmoore]

All, thx a ton. In fact the first thing I did was check the "for the strength of youth" program, hadn't pinged my bishop yet .. more to be nice to him than anything else :). Seriously, wanted to work this out in my own mind first.

Also, I should have made it clear that I'm not looking to skirt the advice from our prophets, just looking to clarify it. I don't want any exchange to go like this:

Me: No dating

Awesome Son: what's dating

Me: uhhmmm ....

:) :) :)

I think there are actually two points that I'll make with him. The first is: It doesn't matter if it's a date or not, it looks like a date to others and we want to be a peculiar people. (He's not crazy about this as I talked him thru it, but it's definitely a stance I believe in.

I just skimmed the posts, so someone may have said this.

I consider dating anytime boys and girls pair off. So a dance would be a date if the boy and girl pair together. If they go to the dance seperately, dance together but also dance with many other kids, then I wouldn't consider it a date. Also, if they go together, but dance with many other kids while there, I also wouldn't consider it a date. It's if they only dance with each other and no one else, then I would consider the dance a date.

The same if a group goes to the park and just hangs out - if they pair up while hanging out, it's still a date in my book, but if they don't pair up, then it's not.

Krazy, I'm so glad you said this. In my mind (which is a bit over the top on the analytics, but that's who I am) I was thinking something like this. If you devote more than 50% of the time to one person at any event, then that's dating. Doesn't matter who drives what, who pays what, or what others think ... you are focusing interest on one girl...

Hmmm, as I think about this more, maybe they both need this ... she needs to spend at least 50% of her time with others while he is spending time with others.

So, in this particular case, I'm thinking that he actually wouldn't be on a date by my new definition, but that he'll need to pass because it "looks like" a date.

Time for a new post ... just what looks like a date .... j/k!!! lolz.

Thx again to all.

[bmy-]

Homecoming is a date, even if they are just friends. Once you say yes to something, it will be hard to say no later, even if it is for good intentions.

You may feel guilty now for saying no, but down the road you will be glad you did. Kids who start early in dating situations, often marry earlier or have premarital relations. Better safe than sorry.

Mormons typically postpone dating until 16.. and they are notorious for getting married 'early'. The rest of the world dates VERY early and gets married LATE when viewed in the LDS perspective.

I say let him go. It shows you trust him.. and it gives him an oppurtunity to prove himself. I didn't grow up in the church.. but i'm a better person because I spent one-on-one time with females.

Edited September 11, 2008 by bmy-

[MikeUpton]

Generally its a date when its mutually considered to be a date. :)

Edit: In the case of adults anyways. In the case of teens, its a date when the parent says "It darn well IS a date, now go to your room and think about it."

Edited September 11, 2008 by MikeUpton

[Heavenguard]

Sure, it's a date, because two people are going out to do something together, but it's a non-romantically-intentioned date.

I think usually the idea of trying to discourage people from dating young is the wisdom of not getting into things before the maturity is there. However, if it's understood by all sides that it's platonic, and it's no different than any other evening (besides the name "homecoming"), I don't really see a problem.

[Bookmeister]

If anyone hopes to get a kiss, then it's a date. :)

[Jbs2763]

when my EQ in UT had a dating challenge, the parameters were "the 3 P's" Planned, Paid for and Paired off

[johnnylingo]

3 Ps!!! A date is:

1) planned ahead

2) paired off

3) paid for

[nephishomie23]

I'm a sophomore from a small town made up of mostly Mormons. It's interesting because this question never comes up around Homecoming. How it works at my school is that the princesses all need a guy to escort them to the big Homecoming program where they crown the queen and stuff, but they don't go to the dance with their escort on a date. But my school's homecoming dance is not a date dance, either, which might be different where you are.

So if this is the way it works where you are, I would say it is definitely not a date. If they present the homecoming court at a dance where you are, then it sounds more like a date to me, but I would just trust your son. In that situation, I would say that if he spends the whole dance with her then it would be a date, but if he simply performs his escorting duties then treats it like any other dance where he just dances with a variety of girls and has a good time with his friends then it wouldnt.

[georgia2]

Your son is 15? How old is the girl? If they are this young, how are they getting there?

Seems to me like your son is being a good friend, a gentleman. If this girls parents are going, driving, and others are also going, it sounds fine. I wouldn't call it a date. Sounds to me like he is helping her out so she feels good WITHOUT it being a date! Hey, why don't you go too? He could ride with you, she with her parents, then meet at the stadium? Or all go eat out together and make it a great night for all? Then it would be two families going to a football game with each being especially proud of their kids!

[rockwoodchev]

This is way to old of a post to apply anymore, but I would 100% say YES!! Let him go to the dance. Why shackle him to rules that have no applicability to his situation, plus if you let him go, you will be teaching him that even with rules, there is understanding, love, and caring for the individual. The 16 rule makes sense when you are making blanket rules for all members of the church, but you are making decisions for 1 member of your family. LET THE BOY GO!

[NeuroTypical]

if it's understood by all sides that it's platonic, and it's no different than any other evening (besides the name "homecoming"), I don't really see a problem.

I would completely agree with that line of reasoning, except for one thing.

When you're dealing with hormone-drenched 15 yr olds, there is no such thing as being able to rely on platonicness. It can change from platonic to steamy naughtitude in one simple fluttering heartbeat. Can, and does.

LM

[Raggman84]

I ain't gonna touch this one... I'm in the YSA world and have no clue what a date is, when its hanging out, when it is a group hang, or a group date....i have no freakin idea, I have no idea when a girl is flirting or being freindly, i can sit and have a 20 min conversation with a girl that I thought was no way interested in me, may not be, Or i can and do get "HEY ASK ME OUT SILLY" vibes from a gal who is attached to a dude who is way above my class (lower-middle/blue collar) and he's working on his PhD,

ARRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

JBS I know how that feels man. This is why so many general authorities of the church keep telling us single adults to not just hang out.

In my Singles branch I have seen guys and girls who are constant companions to each other but somehow aren't dating. They sit really close to each other. The guy may even put his arm around her. To everyone else it looks like they are dating. However if asked if they are dating they will smile and say " Oh no she isn't my girlfriend we are just friends."

Other guys won't bother to ask the girl out because of the appearance of a relationship that isn't really there. Even if it is known that a certain guy and girl aren't dating it would be awkward to date a girl who has a strong emotional attachment to another guy.

The guy in this illusion of a relationship may have problems dating other girls because he seems so attached to a girl who he is apparently not dating.

When a guy and a girl who are good friends find themselves spending a great deal of time together they should either consider themselves a couple or spend less time with each other. Otherwise they are wasting each others time and confusing everyone around them.

JBS I wouldn't worry terribly about classes of society. You just need to find a girl who likes you for you.