Enduring to the End

[Over43]

This week's postings concerning Richard Dutcher's apparent tie severing with the church has made me think about the fragile thread that keeps most of us attached to the Gospel. Five years ago Dutcher was a "church hero" (within the Church sub-culture) now he has chosen to "leave".

There seems to be a commonality between cultural success and leaving the religion. I can think of Kevin Sharpe, Tal Bachmann and Katherine Heigl as some that stand out most. In the 80's baseball player Jack Morris was touted as "the Mormon baseball player". That didn't last too long.

Although I think this is more of the exception than the norm. Dale Murphy and Steve Young have been good examples of reaching pinacles of the sports culture success and surviving within the parameters of the Gospel. Entertainment wise Gladys Knight seems to be one who is "holding to the rod" as well as others.

I'm not crticizing those who leave, and wonder whatresult would happen if I found myself in a situation that included fame, fortune and all taht goes with it. I'm not to sure I would fare any better than anyone else.

I think it is a good examp[le though of how difficult it truly is to endure to the end.

Jon

[Hemidakota]

As we draw closer to the coming event of the second coming, more and more members will depart from the truth.

[Prodigal_Son]

I think it's more a reality check of the fact that you cannot sit on the fence. You can't have one foot in Babylon and one in Zion. I don't mean to blanket condemn. But your point is well made. Gladys Knight is a recent convert. I lived in her Stake down in GA when she converted. Steve Young was specifically told to go out there and REPRESENT us. That's a lot of pressure to NOT screw it up. The others were folks who just happened to be LDS...

On the other hand, Mark Madsen of the NBA's Timberwolves is a pretty die hard Mormon. He gets teased for his Book of Mormon type speech, his wacky dancing, and his clean living. There are others...

But your point is valid. Satan happens to be DANGED good at what he does. He's had a LOT of practice. Perhaps our simple, obscure, financially-unimpressive lives are one of our greatest blessings??

[HoosierGuy]

I wasn't sure who Katherine Heigl is so I Googled her and read the winki page on her. I found this, a little shocking:

"Although she is no longer a practicing Mormon, she remains positive on several aspects of the religion,[11] and has expressed interest in returning to her faith.[12]"

Uh, I know that line could be incorrect. But if it is even remotely correct, is not that a one way ticket to the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdom? I mean, she is saying (if the line is correct) - Yeah I believe in the Church. I'm going to leave now so I can sin. I still love the Church and I'll come back after I'm done sinning. Thanks!

[Hemidakota]

Afirmative....the concert for the telestial state is growing. :)

[bytor2112]

Katherine Heigl is the star of that uplifting romantic-comedy, "Knocked up"....as for Richard Dutcher...it isn't like he is a hollywood superstar and was somewhat controversial even among the LDS. I like his films...I thought God's Army was great and spiritually moving and Brigham City still makes my wife cry in the last scene at Sacrament meeting. I hope he will come back....

[pam]

Bytor I hope that the term "uplifting" was said tongue in cheek. haha

[HoosierGuy]

I should not judge Katherine Heigl. Sorry about that. I have my own sins to fight. :)

[NeuroTypical]

Interesting thread!

There seems to be a commonality between cultural success and leaving the religion. I can think of Kevin Sharpe, Tal Bachmann and Katherine Heigl as some that stand out most.

Oh, I dunno if I'd agree with that. Mitt Romney, Stephen Covey, Glenn Beck, and John Huntsman all seem to be going strong dispite lots and lots of time in the spotlight.

Surely, when someone is widely known, more people know when they fall away, because as always, dirt makes good news. You don't read stories like "Stephen Covey is still LDS!" because it wouldn't sell newspapers and it's boring to talk about.

LM

[bytor2112]

Bytor I hope that the term "uplifting" was said tongue in cheek. haha

Indeed......but sadly I think it is an all to realistic telling of American culture:(

[bytor2112]

Does leaving the Church mean leaving the Lord? Does it always mean gross transgression? Perhaps this is the course they must chart to truly learn and grow and fully appreciate the atonement.

[Prodigal_Son]

Does leaving the Church mean leaving the Lord? Does it always mean gross transgression? Perhaps this is the course they must chart to truly learn and grow and fully appreciate the atonement.

You imply the parable of the Prodigal Son here. But I don't think MUST is an appropriate description. The implication is that such wanderings are the ONLY way for them to appreciate the atonement. This isn't true.

[bytor2112]

You imply the parable of the Prodigal Son here. But I don't think MUST is an appropriate description. The implication is that such wanderings are the ONLY way for them to appreciate the atonement. This isn't true.

Not the only way for sure....but we are all different and some are just gonna have to get all scuffed up in order to figure out there is a smoother path.

[Prodigal_Son]

Not the only way for sure....but we are all different and some are just gonna have to get all scuffed up in order to figure out there is a smoother path.

Well, if I have to get scuffed up, I'll happily take a Hollywood paycheck along with it. :lol:

[Vort]

Does leaving the Church mean leaving the Lord?

The Church is the kingdom of God on earth. Leaving the Church is therefore, by definition, leaving God.

Does it always mean gross transgression?

Only if you believe that leaving God is gross transgression.

Perhaps this is the course they must chart to truly learn and grow and fully appreciate the atonement.

I've often wondered about this. I have often wondered if, for example, Mister X had to commit adultery and destroy his family relationships in order to appreciate and understand the evils inherent in that act. This is a philosophical point that I don't think we can fully comprehend.

However, I will say that, as a matter of principle, doing good is always better, in every case, than doing evil. Therefore, I cannot accept the idea that we must commit thus-and-such sin in order to progress.

[Deborah]

Enduring to the end is not easy. But keep in mind it's still not the end for many of these people. Life is a process and a school and sometimes we fail a class. But hopefully we come to our senses and get back on track. I love the phrase from the parable of the Prodigal son "And when he came to himself." We may stray but hopefully with prayers of loved ones and with a watchful God we may all come to ourselves when we do.

[Hemidakota]

You are right Deborah! Thinking about those individuals who could not be kept from the veil, even they must endure to the end and still sin. We are always in need of eternal trials for growth and humility.

Noting Elder Neal A. Maxwell once said, "The ever more rapid passing of time tends to provide a much keener appreciation for those disciples who "endure well" (D&C 121:8) to the end. However, this sobering challenge is not just for the aging.

To "endure well" to the end is actually enduring well to the very beginning. Meanwhile, this life is the second estate over the prospects of which we once shouted for joy (Job 38:7), even though there may be brief moments when we might wonder what all that shouting was about."

[Over43]

Interesting thread!

Oh, I dunno if I'd agree with that. Mitt Romney, Stephen Covey, Glenn Beck, and John Huntsman all seem to be going strong dispite lots and lots of time in the spotlight.

Surely, when someone is widely known, more people know when they fall away, because as always, dirt makes good news. You don't read stories like "Stephen Covey is still LDS!" because it wouldn't sell newspapers and it's boring to talk about.

LM

>>>Although I think this is more of the exception than the norm. Dale Murphy and Steve Young have been good examples of reaching pinacles of the sports culture success and surviving within the parameters of the Gospel. Entertainment wise Gladys Knight seems to be one who is "holding to the rod" as well as others.<<<

Apparently you didn't read the above paragraph. Ironically, the gentleman who was partners with Covey, building the Covey "Empire" was excommunicated and re-baptized. Which actually may not be ironic at all.

Jon

[Palerider]

As we draw closer to the coming event of the second coming, more and more members will depart from the truth.

ditto to that.....and I think some will be surprised or shocked to see who does leave....

[Prodigal_Son]

ditto to that.....and I think some will be surprised or shocked to see who does leave....

Reminds me of the parable of the train that ??Hinckley?? taught back in the 90's. The one about how the train has been moving slowly, so people have been hopping on and off... but that it's going to accelerate to a point where - if you hop off - there's no getting back on.

[Prodigal_Son]

Entertainment wise Gladys Knight seems to be one who is "holding to the rod" as well as others.

Not degrading her at all, but Gladys hasn't been tempted with fame. She only converted about 10 years ago. Thus, her life was established BEFORE she made the choice to convert.

[Prodigal_Son]

I just found this from Orson Scott Card in one of his columns. He touches on the way we judge Mormon celebrities. Interesting ideas...

Mormon Times - Singin', dancin' Mormons

[justamere10]

Enduring to the end is a process of constantly adding oil to leaky vehicles. Enduring another boring talk in sacrament meeting without complaint adds a few drops, as does patiently sitting through yet another class on the word of wisdom or tithing. And of course quarts are freely found in temples and serving others.

There's a lot of joy for the taking as we move along life's roads confident that service stations are plentiful, all we need do is take the time to stop and fill up.