Is it possible not to judge thy neighbor or thyself

[Misshalfway]

Do you all think it is possible NOT to judge all the events and choices and happenings of our lives and relationships?

Have you ever stopped to think that you don't have to make a judgment? And I am talking about the ones we know we are making and the ones we don't.

Why do we have to decide the "goodness" or "badness", or "rightness" or "wrongness" of any given act or person?

And when we do engage in all of this evaluating, what is it then that seduces us into believing that we are right???

Judging then leads us to having to do something about it. We judge it and then we apply all sorts of stuff like guilt and shame. We judge ourselves harshly and others harshly and go around laying out guilt trips and doing annoying things like apologizing for everything!

Been reading this book -- "Learning to Love" by Don and Martha Rosenthal. It is a relationship book that is now at top of my all time favorites list.

In the end of the book, they talk about the difference between being a "judge" and a "witness" with regards to others and the events of our relationships.

I am thinking a lot about how much loving I am when I simple witness the actions of others and myself. I can just observe that Jeb and Marva didn't make it to church again. I don't have to anaylize "why not". I can see myself make a mistake and understand better why I did without all the burden of having to judge.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Dr T]

Our amazing brains are built that way. We all judge and we all have bias. If we do not discriminate amongst things in our lives then we will end up accepting everything.

[Misshalfway]

Our amazing brains are built that way. We all judge and we all have bias. If we do not discriminate amongst things in our lives then we will end up accepting everything.

Good point. And I agree with you. The Lord tells us in scripture to use righteous judgment.

But what about when he tells us not to judge. Or when he tells us to forgive seventy time seven and leave the judging up to him.

Is there a difference between discernment and judgment? I think there is.

[Truegrits]

When I find myself judging another, for whatever reason, I say (to myself) "They will be accountable for their actions." That is usually enough to keep me in line. Otherwise, I will be held accountable for my judging of another...

[Elphaba]

When I find myself judging another, for whatever reason, I say (to myself) "They will be accountable for their actions."

Hi True,

But isn't that in itself a judgment?

Elphaba

[Prodigal_Son]

As time continues to mellow me, I've developed in this area. I hold STEADFAST to the principle: "with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged." I try to cut slack for people as much as possible. How can I really care about their actions when I can list a dozen of my own that are FAR worse? If a person's behavior doesn't DIRECTLY influence me, then I just don't care. People are people.

It's like Elder Wirthlin pointed out in conference last, when he said: "The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. Every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony."

So you have issues? Congrats and join the club!!

[Vort]

Is it possible not to judge thy neighbor or thyself?

This seems to be a sort of portmanteau of two Biblical phrases: Matthew 22:39 "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" and Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged." The first quote seems self-explanatory, but the second needs investigation.

In the first place, note that Joseph Smith rendered this verse as, "Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment."

Second, remember that an unmitigated commandment to "judge not" is not possible to follow; life is judgment, after all.

Third, it is useful to reference Elder Oaks' talk "Judge Not" and Judging, given at BYU in March 1998 and reprinted in the Ensign in August 1999. (Also available here for mp3 download.) Elder Oaks points out that judgment is a necessary and inescapable part of our mortal journey, and that it is our duty to judge righteously. He also distinguishes between passing current judgment on a person or actions and passing final judgment; the former is often required of us, the latter only of God.

Do you all think it is possible NOT to judge all the events and choices and happenings of our lives and relationships?

No.

Have you ever stopped to think that you don't have to make a judgment? And I am talking about the ones we know we are making and the ones we don't.

Sure, at times.

Why do we have to decide the "goodness" or "badness", or "rightness" or "wrongness" of any given act or person?

Often we do, yes, but not necessarily always.

And when we do engage in all of this evaluating, what is it then that seduces us into believing that we are right???

If we thought we were wrong, we wouldn't believe as we do. But I agree that we often ought to hold our opinions less firmly than we do.

Judging then leads us to having to do something about it. We judge it and then we apply all sorts of stuff like guilt and shame. We judge ourselves harshly and others harshly and go around laying out guilt trips and doing annoying things like apologizing for everything!

I think there is some truth to this. But the alternative -- refusing to make any judgment about anything or anyone for any reason -- is much worse.

I am thinking a lot about how much loving I am when I simple witness the actions of others and myself. I can just observe that Jeb and Marva didn't make it to church again. I don't have to anaylize "why not". I can see myself make a mistake and understand better why I did without all the burden of having to judge.

Maybe I'm not understanding your terminology. When you recognize that you've made a mistake and analyze why and what you can do differently, you are making lots of judgments. The recognition alone is a judgment, and a bunch of value judgments follow when deciding why you've done it and how to avoid it. But I don't think that's what you're saying. Edited September 16, 2008 by Vort

[NeuroTypical]

I second Vort's link.

Ensign - “Judge Not” and Judging By Elder Dallin H. Oaks

Go forth and judge righteous judgement.

LM

Edited September 16, 2008 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[HiJolly]

Maybe I'm not understanding your terminology. When you recognize that you've made a mistake and analyze why and what you can do differently, you are making lots of judgments. The recognition alone is a judgment, and a bunch of value judgments follow when deciding why you've done it and how to avoid it. But I don't think that's what you're saying.

Great comments, Vort. And no, I don't think you were getting it, either. We can observe what other people are doing without bringing personal suppositions into the scenario at to WHY they are doing whatever it is. Many times when we think up WHY they do whatever, we judge unrighteously.

HiJolly

[Islander]

As Dr.T replied, judgment sounds like it has a negative connotation, but it is central to the decision making process and choice in our existance. Throughout our lives we develop cognitive filters thru which we see and understand the social environment, people, situations and other stimuli. We have to develop a frame of reference to guide behavioral choices and thus we develop value systems to reinforce them and create a foundation for our lives and families.

If you imply that we should judge others for who they are and the choices they make perhaps you are true. We can not help but have an opinion about the behavior of others since they are either in syc or not with our own value system. We don't have to, however, lift an accusatory finger or chastise the person. If that is what you mean by judgment, we do not have to do that.

[Hemidakota]

The question to not judge, I feel should be one of learning how to judge righteously on every decision or action to be taken. I consider this a requirement in becoming like the Savior.

I agree with Dr T’s response, as mortals we may through life, engrain and formulated cultured biased opinions, which can be associated with our upbringing from our parents, siblings, close friends, or even mentors. Whether they are good or bad character traits, we most be on a constant vigilance in self-correction and masters those traits that are not in harmony with the Savior. Even I have such character flaws that need correcting. LOL

[Misshalfway]

For the sake of simplicity, I think it would be helpful to label the righteous ability to judge as discernment. There is no doubt that we must evaluate thru the course of our lives and decide what we will believe and do. This is not the kind of judgment that I am speaking about in this thread anyway.

I think Elphaba and HiJolley are understanding the spirit and context of my original post.

[Hemidakota]

I have an older daughter who does not go to church. Do I need to make parental assessment of what she is doing every Sunday? Yes! Then leave it in the Lords hand.

[Moksha]

Even when we do judge, what we do with that judgment seems to be the most crucial element. We can always hold that judgment to ourselves and grapple with its good or bad intent, or we can let go with it by both barrels and scatter it around.

Are we better people for having done so? Are we better for having thrown the stones at the accused woman or to have set them down in a pile, while at the same time acknowledging our own internal anger?

[Hemidakota]

I always wonder if the accused male was in the same crowd.....bring the scatter gun!

[Dr T]

I think Jesus, in his passage found in Matthew 7:1-2 ought to be read in light of what is written in Matt. 7:15-16. There Jesus commanded us to know people "by their fruit" which shows us there is an appraisal/evauluation that is done. Yes, we are called to LOVE-no question but we are not called upon to approve of everything. I think what he was talking about is judging other's motives as if we can take God's place to judge the inner man. We also see that he allows us to judge others but he calls for it to be fair (which has also already been said) knowing that what we use will be used on us. How many times do we look at others and say, "I can't believe they did that" and then when we find ourselves doing something similar are much more gracious with ourselves? We are great at rationalizing our own behaviors and condemning others (IMO).

[Misshalfway]

As I read this book that is now one of my favorites, , I am learning that I can find this place inside of myself that does nothing but observe. The author calls it the witness. And this is the ability to stand outside of our emotions, fears, judgments, beliefs, and desires and just simply witness what takes place.

I think when we judge....we put ourselves into a place where we have to do something! Do something about that person....correct, punish, instruct, interfere.

I think sometimes when we don't observe we don't allow our discernment abilities the time to gather all the information and we jump too soon to punish ourselves and others for emotions or mistakes or choices that we think look like mistakes. And I think we stumble over ourselves as we run around labeling everything as right or wrong.

I think sometimes we latter-day saints are brutal to ourselves in our judgments. I think some of us are drowning in unnecessary guilt. And I think we impose unnecessary guilt on others as well.

[Misshalfway]

I think Jesus, in his passage found in Matthew 7:1-2 ought to be read in light of what is written in Matt. 7:15-16. There Jesus commanded us to know people "by their fruit" which shows us there is an appraisal/evauluation that is done. Yes, we are called to LOVE-no question but we are not called upon to approve of everything. I think what he was talking about is judging other's motives as if we can take God's place to judge the inner man. We also see that he allows us to judge others but he calls for it to be fair (which has also already been said) knowing that what we use will be used on us. How many times do we look at others and say, "I can't believe they did that" and then when we find ourselves doing something similar are much more gracious with ourselves? We are great at rationalizing our own behaviors and condemning others (IMO).

Isn't it interesting that even the Savior did not condemn the woman caught in adultry. He simply invited her to change her course.

[Connie]

True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference

Judging Others

Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that you should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, you will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout your life. The Lord has given many commandments that you cannot keep without making judgments. For example, He has said: "Beware of false prophets.... Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-16) and "Go ye out from among the wicked" (D&C 38:42). You need to make judgments of people in many of your important decisions, such as choosing friends, voting for government leaders, and choosing an eternal companion.

Judgment is an important use of your agency and requires great care, especially when you make judgments about other people. All your judgments must be guided by righteous standards. Remember that only God, who knows each individual's heart, can make final judgments of individuals (see Revelation 20:12; 3 Nephi 27:14; D&C 137:9).

The Lord gave a warning to guide us in our judgments of others: "With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye--and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye" (3 Nephi 14:2-5).

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person's eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others' faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.

Your righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for you and your family. Approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as you can, judge people's situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, refrain from making judgments until you have an adequate knowledge of the facts. Always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide your decisions. Remember Alma's counsel to his son Corianton: "See that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually" (Alma 41:14).

Additional references: 1 Samuel 16:7; Moroni 7:14-19; D&C 11:12

[piper]

Even when we do judge, what we do with that judgment seems to be the most crucial element. We can always hold that judgment to ourselves and grapple with its good or bad intent, or we can let go with it by both barrels and scatter it around.

Are we better people for having done so? Are we better for having thrown the stones at the accused woman or to have set them down in a pile, while at the same time acknowledging our own internal anger?

I would like to add to this sentiment. These are the two extremes, say nothing and look inward or let go with both barrels. I feel that there is a lot in between those two. Such as Offer gentle guidance and correction (as with a child) offer support and encouragement to someone (such as a brother who is destroying his and others lives with a devastating addiction). Protecting your family from someone who's acts you see are dangerous to them. At no time do you need to condemn the one who's acts you judged. As Miss Halfway said, Jesus said he who has no sin cast the first stone. He had no sin.... He did judge her but didn't condemn her when he said neither do I condemn thee but got the point in she should change.

[Guest tomk]

Do you all think it is possible NOT to judge all the events and choices and happenings of our lives and relationships?

Have you ever stopped to think that you don't have to make a judgment? And I am talking about the ones we know we are making and the ones we don't.

Why do we have to decide the "goodness" or "badness", or "rightness" or "wrongness" of any given act or person?

And when we do engage in all of this evaluating, what is it then that seduces us into believing that we are right???

Judging then leads us to having to do something about it. We judge it and then we apply all sorts of stuff like guilt and shame. We judge ourselves harshly and others harshly and go around laying out guilt trips and doing annoying things like apologizing for everything!

Been reading this book -- "Learning to Love" by Don and Martha Rosenthal. It is a relationship book that is now at top of my all time favorites list.

In the end of the book, they talk about the difference between being a "judge" and a "witness" with regards to others and the events of our relationships.

I am thinking a lot about how much loving I am when I simple witness the actions of others and myself. I can just observe that Jeb and Marva didn't make it to church again. I don't have to anaylize "why not". I can see myself make a mistake and understand better why I did without all the burden of having to judge.

I have not read the other replies, but this caught my eye.

I think it boils down to this:

In my assessment of other people and situations, including myself, do I counsel with the Lord before I respond?

[Misshalfway]

I have not read the other replies, but this caught my eye.

I think it boils down to this:

In my assessment of other people and situations, including myself, do I counsel with the Lord before I respond?

I am trying to get what you mean here......okay, trying again........ Dang. I really don't. Could you clarify?

[Hemidakota]

Ponder the thought prior to speaking it...something that is seen in the Saviors mortal ministry. Good point Tom.

[Misshalfway]

Let's say I meet someone nasty. How easy it is to judge the nastiness.... and react to the nastiness in a variety of colorful ways. But what if you just observe the nastiness.....see the pain behind it. Maybe wait for more information.....or ask for more information before we move forward. Isn't that a more powerful place than writing someone off or punishing them or condemning them? Like my fourth mission companion. Hated each other. Argued! Said awful things! We prayed for a change of heart. Father taught us that day to accept each other. And we did. She didn't change one iota and neither did I. But she ended up being my favorite companion. It was our judging of each other that was our problem....not anything else.

[DapperDan]

I believe there is also a HUGE difference between judging whether or not something is good for US or not, whether something would benefit US or not, etc. Then there is the scenario of judging whether or not something SOMEONE ELSE is doing is good or not, whether something SOMEONE ELSE is doing is beneficial or not, etc. I believe we fall into the latter scenario all too often and use the JST and talks like Elder Oaks' and the like to justify ourselves -saying that "we NEED to judge, it's part of life."

I would love for someone to please state a place where you NEEDED to make a judgment about someone else's actions or thoughts or words. There is NEVER a need for us to make a judgement about someone in that way outside of being a Bishop (Judge in Israel) or Stake President and so forth. Parenthood may fall into this category as well, but I don't really think that these situations are what MissHW is talking about.

My two ¢.