Theological uncertainties

[prisonchaplain]

One aspect of LDS teaching that members either love or take for granted, and that appeals to many investigators, is that there is more certainty about many religious questions. "Certain precious truths" have been restored through the BoM, the D&C and the PoGP--in addition to teachings offered by LDS prophets. The "faith or works" question is clearly explained. The Godhead is easier to understand. You know what additional opportunities await those who never heard the gospel. So many questions that we Protestants, and even many Catholics, continue to be uncertain about, are resolved for you--and with answers that seem logical and satisfying.

And you seem to marvel at the ability of us Protestants and Catholics to accept uncertainty and ambiguity. Particularly within Protestantism, there is tolerance for a variety of opposing teachings about important doctrines. Some baptize infants, others don't. Some speak in unknown tongues, others forbid. Some believe in and pray for divine healing, others simply pray "thy will be done." You wonder how we can be satisfied with such seeming spiritual chaos. "Where's the unity--the one faith, one baptism?" you question.

And yet, at least in some ways, could it be that there is a measure of faith in not having all the answers? We believe God, study his revealed word, and at the end of the day say, "I know what I know, believe what I believe, and trust God with the rest." How many parents have ever responded to a child's "Why?' with, "Because I said so," and the child responded, "OK?" The child still wants to know why, s/he knows you can be trusted, and that when the time is right, you will explain.

So, my question...how much spiritual uncertainty are you comfortable with, and do my observations ring true?

[Misshalfway]

I absolutely love your above post, btw. Really really good stuff there.

For me, it isn't really a question of how much spiritual uncertainty I am comfortable with. God is the keeper of the truth. He is the decision maker of how much is given and to whom it is given to. So in that spirit, I absolutely feel that there are things I may never know in the course of my life time and Gods will must be done.

Having said that, I believe that God does want us to have a very satisfying degree of spiritual certainty. I think such is necessary because no one can be saved in ignorance.

I don't believe the God of the bible is a god of confusion nor do I believe that God has place glass ceilings on how much truth and clarity he will give the earth. I believe that he has promised that He will tell us the truth of all things thru the Spirit and IF we humble ourselves and are obedient to the prereq's of receiving such knowledge. I believe that He wants to tell us his mysteries and hidden secrets of knowledge concerning who and what He is and who and what we are and why we are here on earth. I guess I am saying that to some degree the sky is the limit.

Confusion breeds unrest and levels of darkness. Truth dispels the dark and literally chases it away. It gives peace and surety and something solid and trustworthy to place our faith in. God gives us light and knowledge by degree. The more obedient and sanctified we become, the more enlightened we become.

[AndrewCothran]

At the end of the day it really depends on youre object of faith , interpretation,traditions that you accept and you're axioms ..

Now when all of the big questions are answered for you in a neat little package it is perhaps nice until you come to a question that has no answers .The ability and the freedom to challenge to examine to wrestle with certain doctrine is of paramount importance,

One thing we can say to our credit as protestants is that we do for the most part think for ourselves ..as evidenced by what you illustrated above ...

DISCLAIMER :

Now before an over zealous lds member misinterprets what i just said ,, LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR that i am in no wise suggesting that LDS members do not think for themselves.

there are some people who are determined to read what they want to into a statement that is not meant to attack them or anyone ...

It reminds me of a person who said that the nursery Rhyme Baa Baa Black Sheep was racist.. STUPID

[pam]

Good thing Andrew you have that disclaimer. I was going to have to challenge you on that one.

[Guest ceeboo]

Having said that, I believe that God does want us to have a very satisfying degree of spiritual certainty. I think such is necessary because no one can be saved in ignorance.

I don't believe the God of the bible is a god of confusion nor do I believe that God has place glass ceilings on how much truth and clarity he will give the earth. I believe that he has promised that He will tell us the truth of all things thru the Spirit and IF we humble ourselves and are obedient to the prereq's of receiving such knowledge. I believe that He wants to tell us his mysteries and hidden secrets of knowledge concerning who and what He is and who and what we are and why we are here on earth. I guess I am saying that to some degree the sky is the limit.

Hello Misshalfway,

I appreciate your thoughts on this, thanks for sharing :)

A few questions, if I may, to clarify.

When you say " no one can be saved in ignorance " who are you talking about that will NOT be saved. ( Catholics ? Protestants ? Jews? Athiests ? Aborigenese ? Muslims? Etc, ?)

I imagine you have humbled yourself and are indeed obedient to recieve such knowledge

" sky is the limit " and do know all Gods mysteries and secrets to know who and what he is. Can you tell me all those secrets and who and what he is??

Thanks,

God bless

Carl

[pam]

Let me put my perspective on that ceeboo..Not to take away from Miss 1/2. To me ignorance is not referring to any other religion. It's those that think...as long as I don't know I'm not held responsible.

I use an example of the work place. How many people have you worked with that don't want to learn something new because they might get asked to do it?

That's my thinking on it. I could be off base but..wouldn't be the first time. lol

[bytor2112]

Thanks for the disclaimer Andrew.......but it's not necessary. Everyone's faith is in a"neat" little package.. We all grapple with eternal questions, don't we? I mean, there lot's of LDS doctrines that members either don't accept or struggle to accept. Many have been discussed in great detail on this forum.....polygamy, King Follett discourse, etc. Protestants struggle as well.....infant baptism, understanding the Trinity, etc. In the end, we all claim the privilege of worshiping Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour and seek to be recognized as a loyal disciple and he will be the judge of each of us at the great judgment bar.

[deblldo]

Hi,

I have to say the fact that the lds missionaries have answered many of my questions which such certainity keeps me interested and hanging on in hope. As a baptist the answer's i usually get are "well we wont know that till we get to heaven", or "God's way's are higher than ours" etc etc.

so im stuck between the two, i understand why the lds faith converts so many because you have such confidence in what you have been taught and such a "knowledge" of God and his plans.

However what i am uncomfortable with is when we start and think that we know everything about God, his plans etc that we limit Him. i heard a quote which sums it up, "if in our search for theology God gets smaller , we have been decieved".

I personally think there is no way we will understand all the mysteries of God we are but a finite being , we couldnt comprehend them.

please dont get me wrong i love to search the scripture's and i long to know more, but i think if God showed me everything, it would blow my mind!!!

debs.

[BenRaines]

For me it is not so much confidence in what I have been taught but what I believe the Holy Ghost has testified to me was true.

Ben Raines

[bytor2112]

Hi,

I have to say the fact that the lds missionaries have answered many of my questions which such certainity keeps me interested and hanging on in hope. As a baptist the answer's i usually get are "well we wont know that till we get to heaven", or "God's way's are higher than ours" etc etc.

so im stuck between the two, i understand why the lds faith converts so many because you have such confidence in what you have been taught and such a "knowledge" of God and his plans.

However what i am uncomfortable with is when we start and think that we know everything about God, his plans etc that we limit Him. i heard a quote which sums it up, "if in our search for theology God gets smaller , we have been decieved".

I personally think there is no way we will understand all the mysteries of God we are but a finite being , we couldnt comprehend them.

please dont get me wrong i love to search the scripture's and i long to know more, but i think if God showed me everything, it would blow my mind!!!

debs.

I am a former Baptist......now LDS and I too was frustrated with the lack of answers. God has revealed to us through Holy Writ and revelation his plan for the salvation of man. We know that it is, "his work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." My Patriarchal blessing states, .." that I will receive blessings beyond my mortal minds ability to comprehend.".....I think that applies to God as well.

[Vanhin]

prisonchaplain,

Thank you for the wonderful introduction, and the great question.

There are, of course, many things in the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ that give answers to many important questions in life. But it has also created new questions, that we do not have answers to yet. There are great and many things that we are not prepared for yet, but we have hope to receive them, either while here in mortality, or in the eternal life to come. An article of our faith states:

"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." (AoF 1:9)

Our progression, as children of God, is all about increasing our knowledge, until we know all things. This endeavor, is what the plan of salvation is all about. Our excursion into mortality has a two-fold mission. We come to gain a physical body, without the which, further aquisition of knowledge is impossible, and we come to learn by our own experience the difference between good and evil, and to hopefully choose good in the process. Our bodies and these experiences are necessary for us to reach the potential made possible by our Father and his Christ, because without them, we are damned and cannot progress further.

It's all about the gaining of that knowledge, which our scriptures call light and truth, or in other words, intelligence. Consider the following passages of modern revelation, they are the words of Jesus Christ.

"The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." (D&C 93:26-34)

Our time here on earth, is but a drop in the eternities past and future. Yet, it is a vital time in our existence. This is where we learn to live by faith and obedience through our own experience. But to survive, we need the Redeemer of mankind. It is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes the resurrection possible, and it is the atonement of Jesus Christ that makes it possible for us to repent, and become clean again of the mistakes made in mortality, that ultimately allows us to continue our progression in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever.

So, we are comfortable with the knowledge and uncertainty that God affords us at this time. We know the Father's plan is perfect, and we trust His perfect Son, who is our Master. At the same time, we seek more light and truth and look forward to the day when all things are revealed to us. This light and truth is gained through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, and that is why we cannot be saved in ignorance.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[DigitalShadow]

I am perfectly content with not knowing what happens when I die or if there is a God, and I would rather be uncertain than wrong, hence why I am agnostic :)

[Starfish]

I absolutely love your above post, btw. Really really good stuff there.

For me, it isn't really a question of how much spiritual uncertainty I am comfortable with. God is the keeper of the truth. He is the decision maker of how much is given and to whom it is given to. So in that spirit, I absolutely feel that there are things I may never know in the course of my life time and Gods will must be done.

Having said that, I believe that God does want us to have a very satisfying degree of spiritual certainty. I think such is necessary because no one can be saved in ignorance.

I don't believe the God of the bible is a god of confusion nor do I believe that God has place glass ceilings on how much truth and clarity he will give the earth. I believe that he has promised that He will tell us the truth of all things thru the Spirit and IF we humble ourselves and are obedient to the prereq's of receiving such knowledge. I believe that He wants to tell us his mysteries and hidden secrets of knowledge concerning who and what He is and who and what we are and why we are here on earth. I guess I am saying that to some degree the sky is the limit.

Confusion breeds unrest and levels of darkness. Truth dispels the dark and literally chases it away. It gives peace and surety and something solid and trustworthy to place our faith in. God gives us light and knowledge by degree. The more obedient and sanctified we become, the more enlightened we become.

Big fat huggy DITTO!

[HiJolly]

I am perfectly content with not knowing what happens when I die or if there is a God, and I would rather be uncertain than wrong, hence why I am agnostic :)

...but it's wrong to be happily uncertain! (just kidding) ((or am I?))

Is that akin to being luke-warm?

HiJolly

[DigitalShadow]

...but it's wrong to be happily uncertain! (just kidding) ((or am I?))

Is that akin to being luke-warm?

HiJolly

I'd rather be happily uncertain than certainly unhappy :)

[AndrewCothran]

Good thing Andrew you have that disclaimer. I was going to have to challenge you on that one.

i should not have to add that disclaimer because certain people should be mature enough not to read more into a statement than what is there

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

I appreciate your thoughts on this, thanks for sharing :)

A few questions, if I may, to clarify.

When you say " no one can be saved in ignorance " who are you talking about that will NOT be saved. ( Catholics ? Protestants ? Jews? Athiests ? Aborigenese ? Muslims? Etc, ?)

I imagine you have humbled yourself and are indeed obedient to recieve such knowledge

" sky is the limit " and do know all Gods mysteries and secrets to know who and what he is. Can you tell me all those secrets and who and what he is??

Thanks,

God bless

Carl

When I say that no one can be saved in ignorance, I am referring to every child of God independent of group or affiliation. In fact, such divisions never entered my thought process.

I think I will refer you to Vanhin's post. He sums it up pretty well. I think his remarks answer your next question too. But I will ask you this.....why wouldn't God want us to understand basic and sure information about who and what he is?

Edited October 8, 2008 by Misshalfway

[AndrewCothran]

Thanks for the disclaimer Andrew.......but it's not necessary. Everyone's faith is in a"neat" little package.. We all grapple with eternal questions, don't we? I mean, there lot's of LDS doctrines that members either don't accept or struggle to accept. Many have been discussed in great detail on this forum.....polygamy, King Follett discourse, etc. Protestants struggle as well.....infant baptism, understanding the Trinity, etc. In the end, we all claim the privilege of worshiping Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour and seek to be recognized as a loyal disciple and he will be the judge of each of us at the great judgment bar.

Thank you for you're understanding ..I must disagree with the statement that everyones faith is in a neat little package ..actually that isn't true ...But i do understand the point you are trying to make .

[Vort]

When you say " no one can be saved in ignorance " who are you talking about that will NOT be saved. ( Catholics ? Protestants ? Jews? Athiests ? Aborigenese ? Muslims? Etc, ?)

I believe MHW was alluding to D&C 131:6 "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance."

This is generally interpreted among Latter-day Saints (of my acquaintance, anyway) as stating the necessity of learning, inquiry, and education. I personally think the key to understanding this verse is in the previous verse, D&C 131:5:

"The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood."

In my opinion, every man or woman who gains salvation (meaning exaltation) will, indeed must, be sealed up to that end, either in this life or the next. Without receiving this "more sure word of prophecy", a person cannot gain salvation. Thus, it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

That's one man's opinion, anyway.

[Misshalfway]

Is anyone on this thread in any post professing to know it all? I don't think so.

I wanted to add also that there is an enemy to all truth. He is our adversary. His primary goal is to deceive. And he will use parts of the truth to do it. He loves confusion and contention and the twisting of the truth to blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. The last thing he wants is for man to pray and to communicate with God and discover truth. Truth is power. How much better to keep man at arms length from God.....to keep him questioning and spinning in the questioning. Or maybe being lulled into carnal security believing all is well when perhaps it is not. I believe that he is the author of all the confusion in the world. The BofM calls him the father of all lies. I think he hides next to the truth and plants the tares among the wheat. Why else are we promised the Holy Ghost if not to have added and sure influence from heaven to help us determine truth vs. error? I believe God calls to man thru the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghosts primary duty is to confirm and reveal truth. As long as we have prayer and the promise that God will answer prayer thru the Spirit, I don't think there is a question that we can't ask Him. And he will answer, that he promises over and over in scripture.

James 1:5-6

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

PS. I just want to reaffirm that I am not referring to any group or denomination by my above remarks. We are all in this together. The devil is working on all of us. And all of us must find the truth so that we may be safe from sin.

[Guest ceeboo]

When I say that no one can be saved in ignorance, I am referring to every child of God independent of group or affiliation. In fact, such divisions never entered my thought process.

I think I will refer you to Vanhin's post. He sums it up pretty well. I think his remarks answer your next question too. But I will ask you this.....why wouldn't God want us to understand basic and sure information about who and what he is?

Hello Misshalfway,

First, I was not suggesting divisions nor was I suggesting you were. I was asking what ( no one can be saved in ignorance ) means ( beacause I am obviously ignorant :)) I still do not know what you mean or who the " unsaved ignorant ones are ":confused:

Thanks for referring me to Vanhin's post but I was hoping to get an answer from you regarding your post. What are gods secrets and who and what is he ??.

I will, my friend, answer your question to me :)

God not only wants us to understand basic and sure information about who he is, He indeed came and lived among his very creations, walked with, taught, lead, loved, and told us from his very mouth in his very words who and what he is all about.

God bless,

Carl

[Traveler]

One aspect of LDS teaching that members either love or take for granted, and that appeals to many investigators, is that there is more certainty about many religious questions. "Certain precious truths" have been restored through the BoM, the D&C and the PoGP--in addition to teachings offered by LDS prophets. The "faith or works" question is clearly explained. The Godhead is easier to understand. You know what additional opportunities await those who never heard the gospel. So many questions that we Protestants, and even many Catholics, continue to be uncertain about, are resolved for you--and with answers that seem logical and satisfying.

And you seem to marvel at the ability of us Protestants and Catholics to accept uncertainty and ambiguity. Particularly within Protestantism, there is tolerance for a variety of opposing teachings about important doctrines. Some baptize infants, others don't. Some speak in unknown tongues, others forbid. Some believe in and pray for divine healing, others simply pray "thy will be done." You wonder how we can be satisfied with such seeming spiritual chaos. "Where's the unity--the one faith, one baptism?" you question.

And yet, at least in some ways, could it be that there is a measure of faith in not having all the answers? We believe God, study his revealed word, and at the end of the day say, "I know what I know, believe what I believe, and trust God with the rest." How many parents have ever responded to a child's "Why?' with, "Because I said so," and the child responded, "OK?" The child still wants to know why, s/he knows you can be trusted, and that when the time is right, you will explain.

So, my question...how much spiritual uncertainty are you comfortable with, and do my observations ring true?

There are two things about religion in general that concern me:

First: that Christians are divided into various religious sects - each saying they understand something better than the others. There is no doubt or question in my mind – either they are all wrong in their understanding of such things or one among them is correct in their understandings and all the rest are wrong.

In any journey, if our map is incorrect by even the smallest amount we cannot rely on what we have getting us to where we need to be. If there is any spiritual uncertainty one cannot say that G-d is directing them. On the other hand I am more impressed in those willing to admit their uncertainty. I believe it is a nature of man to be uncertain but not for G-d. Those that say they have a personal relationship with G-d leave we convinced they are wrong in the things they do and if there is uncertainty in their relationship with G-d, they should admit it first to themselves. I do not believe there is any uncertainty with G-d and what he does.

Second: that many in religion put more stock into what they think they know rather than what they actually do. The entire concept that a belief in something is more valuable than living in complete harmony with what one believes – is life’s greatest heresy. I do not believe that anyone can live or do anything outside of what they actually believe. Life, not mouth, is the honest indication of belief.

Let me give an example: If someone says they believe G-d is merciful then, if such is true, they cannot ever do anything outside of that mercy to others and honestly claim to believe in G-d’s mercy. There is more than spiritual uncertainty with such thinking – there is a complete spiritual disconnect with truth if we think we can behave differently than G-d does and endure to be in G-d’s presents for 5 minutes – let alone an eternity.

I am rather certain that when each of us stands before G-d to make an accounting of ourselves that there will be two topics discussed. First – what did we come to believe during our life and Second - what did we do with what we came to believe. I am quite certain that the LDS concept is very accurate – that is; the more accurate and truthful our belief, the more that will be expected of us in our behavior. I just cannot wrap my hope of eternity around a concept that G-ds mercy will only be extended to those of us that mess up how we behave and treat others – even if it was after we came to understand and believe in Christ. And others that did not have opportunity to understand of Christ and therefore behaved not so badly; not knowing of Christ until after they died and therefore regret and are sorry for what they did, will be damned to hell.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

Ceeboo....I think it is like saying.."no one can swim unless they learn to swim." You can't be saved without a knowledge of Jesus Christ and an understanding of what he requires......at least that is my interpretation In the quest for eternal truth....we all have to learn basic, undeniable truths..right? Like Jesus is the Christ....the only begotten of the Father....the Saviour and Redeemer of mankind.....that he took upon him the sins of all mankind and satisfied the demands of justice on conditions of repentance....that he was crucified and rose from the dead and now sits on the right hand of the Father and reigns in eternal glory.....those type of things.....mmmhhm.

[Justice]

PC, your original post contains many points I ponder frequently. The answer to your last question, at least for me, is that as I learn more, I realize that there's so much more I don't know. It's like learning how to do addition. You think, man this is neat, until you start to learn multiplication. Then it's on to algebra, which would not be possible to learn without both addition and multiplication. So, having more answers to basic questions, like the nature and character of God, open up more questions and room for learning deeper things such as the Creation, Fall, and Atonement. Christ spoke in parables and all were edified to the level of their understanding. So, once I see that God speaks to man today it opens the path to the temple where I can learn even greater truths.

Very good and thought provoking post, PC. I, for one, am glad you visit this forum and am honored to know you here as we chat.

[Hemidakota]

One aspect of LDS teaching that members either love or take for granted, and that appeals to many investigators, is that there is more certainty about many religious questions. "Certain precious truths" have been restored through the BoM, the D&C and the PoGP--in addition to teachings offered by LDS prophets. The "faith or works" question is clearly explained. The Godhead is easier to understand. You know what additional opportunities await those who never heard the gospel. So many questions that we Protestants, and even many Catholics, continue to be uncertain about, are resolved for you--and with answers that seem logical and satisfying.

And you seem to marvel at the ability of us Protestants and Catholics to accept uncertainty and ambiguity. Particularly within Protestantism, there is tolerance for a variety of opposing teachings about important doctrines. Some baptize infants, others don't. Some speak in unknown tongues, others forbid. Some believe in and pray for divine healing, others simply pray "thy will be done." You wonder how we can be satisfied with such seeming spiritual chaos. "Where's the unity--the one faith, one baptism?" you question.

And yet, at least in some ways, could it be that there is a measure of faith in not having all the answers? We believe God, study his revealed word, and at the end of the day say, "I know what I know, believe what I believe, and trust God with the rest." How many parents have ever responded to a child's "Why?' with, "Because I said so," and the child responded, "OK?" The child still wants to know why, s/he knows you can be trusted, and that when the time is right, you will explain.

So, my question...how much spiritual uncertainty are you comfortable with, and do my observations ring true?

If we had all truths revealed to us, I highly doubt any of us would still be here. I comfortable on learning something new everyday as well going to the Temple and learning something new every time I go.

But, I will add, is ok to be satisfied on what we already have or press on for more?