Omnivorous - is meat even necessary anymore?

[interalia]

My spouse and I were reading the Word of Wisdom a few months back and were particularly struck by verses 12-15:

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Both of us were inclined to be more health conscious in general (maintaining healthy weights) and were impressed to move our diet to be less meat centered. Growing up in the south, it was difficult to wrap my mind around preparing a meal whose planning didn't begin with a meat main dish. We eventually got a vegetarian cookbook and found some terrific recipes.

Now we didn't altogether become vegetarians - we would not refuse meat products when offered by others, such as attending a dinner or other outing, but when we cooked in the privacy of our home, we chose to not eat meat.

I love food but have always been indifferent to it - what I mean is I don't have any particular favor for a meat over a vegetable - I cook and eat both just the same. However I know for some meat is just "part of their diets" and they couldn't imagine going a single meal without it.

My question is this, in this time when we have an abundance of food (relatively speaking compared to Joseph Smith's time) considering the revelation to eat meat sparingly while being additionally encouraged to eat it only when other food (grain for instance) is sparse, is it really even requisite that we eat meat anymore with so many alternatives now being available?

I'm not advocating total abdication - heck I'm not advocating anything at all, just wondering what your thoughts might be.

Is meat even necessary anymore, and if so, how should we handle our consumption of it so as to keep up with the Word of Wisdom?

[Guest jedatkinson]

I love it. Living in the age of the great fat epidimic, the LDS is the only church I know to publish an "inspired diet"

[deseretgov]

I read somewhere, probably these forums, that in Joseph Smith's day they ate meat with almost every meal. And at banquets it was common to have six or seven different kinds of meat.

I guess if you wanted some meat you could always say, "Well I'm cold." Hahaha.

[kittymac1969]

I have wondered sometimes as well why this part of the WOW isn't talked about more. For myself, I eat meat sparingly.

For two years my family was vegetarian, and I can tell you that it's very possible to get everything you need nutrient wise without meat. One of the benefits was that my husbands cholesterol went from terrible to good with no medication.

A few months ago, we decided to add some meat back in to our diet, but eat mostly veg.

[pushka]

I've been a vegetarian since 1988 and over the years have found more and more meat substitute, protein foods available. I don't feel we necessarily have to eat meat anymore, unless we're in 3rd world countries experiencing famine conditions of course.

[a-train]

This thread just keeps repeating itself.

Hey, fish has to stay. Tuna is too good.

-a-train

[Gwen]

every body type is different. different illnesses require different diets. the word of wisdom is a starting ground for general good health, but everyone needs to find what is best for their unique body.

a couple examples....

i know a man that has a family history of heart problems. it seems no matter how "fit" they are they will collect every bit of cholesterol that is put in their bodies. for him a very very low meat diet is best. he eats a lot of breads and vegies and feels at his best that way.

i know a lady that has different health issues. tried the same diet and got worse in multiple ways. she found for her to feel healthiest she needs a diet of almost no breads. she had to have meat at every meal. meat did not become the bulk of her diet (it was vegies) but it seemed like a lot compared to the man i mentioned before.

vegies seem to be the common thread. i have yet to hear of anyone that has health issues that prevents eating vegies. maybe the issue isn't meat being no longer necessary, but as a culture we don't eat enough fresh fruits and vegies.

[Truegrits]

but as a culture we don't eat enough fresh fruits and veggies.

So true. Way too much fast food. I have family members that will not eat a fruit or a vegetable... (Unless you count french fries!)

And they are always sickly. They have grown up on "convenience" foods, which may be tasty and filling, but pretty much lacking in nutritional value, but not in fat.

[Elgama]

I disagree not sure we do have an abundance of good food - suspect Joseph Smith ate more good food in his lifetime than I will.

Yes I think meat is sometimes necessary, its something I have put a lot of thought into myself as I don't eat huge amounts of meat and try to find meat that has been reared on farms that care for their animals. But when I was pregnant with my son I NEEDED meat in a big way for whatever reason I find listening to your own body is a good way to judge/

Right now financially and physically our easiest way to eat healthily is to have meat in the winter like it says in the scripture, and eat mostly stews and to eat salads and next to no meat in the summer.

-Charley

[hordak]

(Unless you count french fries!)

Best veggy ever:D

[john doe]

Of course it's okay to eat meat. God intended for us to be happy. What makes me happy is a nice juicy top sirloin steak. In moderation, of course. With a baked potato on the side for the vegetable.

[Captain_Curmudgeon]

Interesting recent book on this topic, In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan. He says it all boils down to three rules:

• Eat food (actual food, not the manufactured stuff in the supermarket).
• Not too much.
• Mostly plants (but meat, sparingly, won't hurt you).

That seems to me to be a pretty good precis of your passage.

[Hemidakota]

I love it. Living in the age of the great fat epidimic, the LDS is the only church I know to publish an "inspired diet"

Welcome to the forum...

[Hemidakota]

My spouse and I were reading the Word of Wisdom a few months back and were particularly struck by verses 12-15:

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Both of us were inclined to be more health conscious in general (maintaining healthy weights) and were impressed to move our diet to be less meat centered. Growing up in the south, it was difficult to wrap my mind around preparing a meal whose planning didn't begin with a meat main dish. We eventually got a vegetarian cookbook and found some terrific recipes.

Now we didn't altogether become vegetarians - we would not refuse meat products when offered by others, such as attending a dinner or other outing, but when we cooked in the privacy of our home, we chose to not eat meat.

I love food but have always been indifferent to it - what I mean is I don't have any particular favor for a meat over a vegetable - I cook and eat both just the same. However I know for some meat is just "part of their diets" and they couldn't imagine going a single meal without it.

My question is this, in this time when we have an abundance of food (relatively speaking compared to Joseph Smith's time) considering the revelation to eat meat sparingly while being additionally encouraged to eat it only when other food (grain for instance) is sparse, is it really even requisite that we eat meat anymore with so many alternatives now being available?

I'm not advocating total abdication - heck I'm not advocating anything at all, just wondering what your thoughts might be.

Is meat even necessary anymore, and if so, how should we handle our consumption of it so as to keep up with the Word of Wisdom?

If you haven't noticed, our culture is based on old European eating habits.

Seeing this is the third WoW thread in the last week, it is the consensus of those posting, moderation is the key. Adding to this, we should be filled with gratitude for the lesser organic life forms, intelligences, in giving up their lives for us that we may live in mortality.

[Traveler]

Insects and grubs are an excellent food source. I am not sure diet is about finding the best food sources – we humans seem to prefer what we want (or think we want) over what we need.

The Traveler

[poulsenll]

As a biochemist who spent over 30 years studying human metabolism, I concur with many of the previously published thoughts. However, if you dont want to eat some meat, you with suffer dietary deficientcies in the long run. Your body stores a number of essential fatty acids in the fat tissue. These are gradually depleted over time if they are not replaced by eating animal fat. The human body can not make them from vegetable fat. When you run out your body will not be able to make some of the essential membranes and you will suffer bad health as a result. Some of the meat substutes add these fats back in as flavorings. The more strict providers use essential fats synthesized chemically. You can either get them from meat or from chemical sythesis but you must get them.

Just a note on cholesterol uptake. Absolutely none of the cholesterol ingested in food is incorporated into body cholesterol. All of the body cholesterol is synthesized de novo from simple fats found in all meats. Because these fats are almost always associated with cholesterol, doctors are prone to use cholesterol levels as an indicater of the foods to be avoided. The main reason is that cholesterol levels are easy to determine and because of the number of different fats that can lead to cholesterol, determining their levels is much more difficult. In addition it is more difficult to get people to eat low fat meat because it is tasteless due to the absence of fats including the essential ones.

Human taste acts to entice us to eat foods than are essential and to avoid foods that are harmful. for example we like sweets because sugar is the most essential food for energy production and to avoid green apples because they contain toxins that make us sick.

Larry P

[Bookmeister]

Well, "vegetarian" is an old indian word meaning "bad hunter".

Besides, I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to graze at the salad bar.

However, having made my humorous comments, I have to say that since I had a gastric bypass operation in May of this year, I've eaten virtually no beef, chicken, or turkey, and most of my "meat" intake has been limited to shrimp (and if God had wanted man to eat fish, He would have put hooves on them). Everything else is pretty much vegetarian in nature.

So far, I seem to be doing okay, although I have to admit that I miss prime rib something fierce.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

My spouse and I were reading the Word of Wisdom a few months back and were particularly struck by verses 12-15:

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Both of us were inclined to be more health conscious in general (maintaining healthy weights) and were impressed to move our diet to be less meat centered. Growing up in the south, it was difficult to wrap my mind around preparing a meal whose planning didn't begin with a meat main dish. We eventually got a vegetarian cookbook and found some terrific recipes.

Now we didn't altogether become vegetarians - we would not refuse meat products when offered by others, such as attending a dinner or other outing, but when we cooked in the privacy of our home, we chose to not eat meat.

I love food but have always been indifferent to it - what I mean is I don't have any particular favor for a meat over a vegetable - I cook and eat both just the same. However I know for some meat is just "part of their diets" and they couldn't imagine going a single meal without it.

My question is this, in this time when we have an abundance of food (relatively speaking compared to Joseph Smith's time) considering the revelation to eat meat sparingly while being additionally encouraged to eat it only when other food (grain for instance) is sparse, is it really even requisite that we eat meat anymore with so many alternatives now being available?

I'm not advocating total abdication - heck I'm not advocating anything at all, just wondering what your thoughts might be.

Is meat even necessary anymore, and if so, how should we handle our consumption of it so as to keep up with the Word of Wisdom?

as a buddhist and lifelong vegetarian, i wholeheartedly support vegetarianism.

[Hemidakota]

As a biochemist who spent over 30 years studying human metabolism, I concur with many of the previously published thoughts. However, if you don't want to eat some meat, you with suffer dietary deficiencies in the long run. Your body stores a number of essential fatty acids in the fat tissue. These are gradually depleted over time if they are not replaced by eating animal fat. The human body can not make them from vegetable fat. When you run out your body will not be able to make some of the essential membranes and you will suffer bad health as a result. Some of the meat substitutes add these fats back in as flavorings. The more strict providers use essential fats synthesized chemically. You can either get them from meat or from chemical synthesis but you must get them.

Just a note on cholesterol uptake. Absolutely none of the cholesterol ingested in food is incorporated into body cholesterol. All of the body cholesterol is synthesized de novo from simple fats found in all meats. Because these fats are almost always associated with cholesterol, doctors are prone to use cholesterol levels as an indicator of the foods to be avoided. The main reason is that cholesterol levels are easy to determine and because of the number of different fats that can lead to cholesterol, determining their levels is much more difficult. In addition it is more difficult to get people to eat low fat meat because it is tasteless due to the absence of fats including the essential ones.

Human taste acts to entice us to eat foods than are essential and to avoid foods that are harmful. for example we like sweets because sugar is the most essential food for energy production and to avoid green apples because they contain toxins that make us sick.

Larry P

How do you feel is using nano delivery technology in aiding those with digestion problems? Using MIT's [Feb 2008] approach in delivery prescribed medication.

[poulsenll]

How do you feel is using nano delivery technology in aiding those with digestion problems? Using MIT's [Feb 2008] approach in delivery prescribed medication.

I am not familiar with that process but if it is similar to the methods for delivering insulin, it should be a boon to those who need a controled biofeedback method for medication.

Larry P

[ldslesson]

My thoughts on this is the principle of witnesses. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Cor 13:1. If eating meat were a huge issue, the prophets would be spending much more time on it. I can't think of a single time that this issue has been discussed in General Conference. I could be wrong on that, but not in my memory. I think that gives some perspective on how high it ought to rank. Faith, charity, temple attendance, etc. these are talked about all the time--pretty important! How much meat? Maybe less important, so just keep it moderate.

[RobertP]

The part of the Word of Wisdom that is enforced seems to be more related to addiction, in my pondering at least. Alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, harmful drugs. The Word of Wisdon is a low bar, for the weakest of all who are or can be considered saints. That seems to leave latitude for looking for the best. Being gluten intolerant is a bit of a curve ball for me. Maybe one day I will have a GI tract that will be able to properly process that stuff. For now I agree with the mindset that it has gluten, gliadin, opiates, and a complex gluten/starch complex that seems to feed bad bacteria in the gut rather than anything healthy. I see world class athletes who aren't gluten free, so obviously I am an anomaly and there are a bunch of us. Oh well. On the meat front, I don't think I eat a lot, but I agree with the previous person, ALA doesn't convert to DHA or EPA at significant ratios, DHA can be obtained from a vegetarian source now, EPA still can't. CLA comes from beef. We can get LA, linoleic acid, from the same vegetables the cows eat in minute quantities, but we won't turn it into CLA. Carnitine is needed for fat metabolism, also found mostly in beef. The body can make it, but many people's body don't make enough of it, making it essential for those people. For all there is bad to say about beef, I figure I should point these points out. Being one who has tried vegetarianism and having had it fail miserably, I figure my GI tract needs coke bottle glasses equivalent correction to see food properly. B12 is also one that is hard to get from vegan sources. So there are at least 5 identified nutrients that are best found in meet of one kind or another. Some vegans seem fine without them, some seem to be at the edge of Kwasiokor onset. Be aware I guess. For my part, until further notice I figure I will be able to vegan at the same time a lion can. Whatever change comes over them to eat straw will allow me to do the same. Until then, I will probably be eating at least some meat. Oh, and also I lean toward grass fed, certainly not garbage/cannibal beef.

[Hemidakota]

In Elder Burtons book, 'We Believe" it states under the topic, "The Meat of Animals Is Intended for Our Food But We Are to Use It Sparingly", various quotes from living prophets:

Joseph Smith,

receiving the Word of the Lord

Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13. And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine. (Revelation, Feb. 27, 1833) D&C 89:12-13

John A. Widtsoe

The Word of Wisdom is concerned largely with the nature of the food and drink taken into the body. That is in full accord with modern views. . . . The flesh of animals should be used sparingly, chiefly in cold weather. (Program of the Church, pp. 38-39) TLDP:741

John A. Widtsoe

The Word of Wisdom does not contain a prohibition against meat eating, but urges its sparing use. Unfortunately, this advice is not generally observed, and man's health suffers in consequence. Many people eat too much meat; a few do not eat enough. (The Word of Wisdom; A Modern Interpretation, p. 260) TLDP:741

John A. Widtsoe

In the observance of the Word of Wisdom caution should be used. Personal opinions often color our practices. We have the right of free agency, but nevertheless we should not try to stretch the Word of Wisdom to conform with our own opinions.

For example: The Word of Wisdom is not a system of vegetarianism. Clearly, meat is permitted. Naturally, that includes animal products, less subject than meat to putrefactive and other disturbances, such as eggs, milk, and cheese. These products cannot be excluded simply because they are not mentioned specifically. By that token most of our foodstuffs could not be eaten.

That man can live without meat is well known, and he may live well if his knowledge is such as to enable him to choose adequate vegetable protein. And, all have the right if they so choose to live without meat. (Evidences and Reconciliations, 3:155-57) TLDP:741

Ezra Taft Benson,

also quoting Joseph Smith

In this revelation [D&C 89] the Lord counsels us to use meat sparingly. I have often felt that the Lord is further counseling us in this revelation against indiscriminately killing animals, for He has said elsewhere in scripture, "Wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need." (D&C 49:21) CR1983Apr:71

Joseph F. Merrill

It is to flesh as an article in human diet that I wish to direct my attention. . . . [A]uthorities say that generally food has more to do with health than any other factor affecting health. . . .

[T]he book continues ["How To Live," p. 251]: "Meat eating and a high-protein diet, instead of increasing one's endurance, have been shown like alcohol, actually to reduce it."

. . . . Latter-day Saints, why should you complain of the scarcity or high price of flesh foods? Have you not known that in any case you should eat them sparingly? The Lord told you so. I have quoted from some of the highest authorities in the world to the effect that they are not essential to your physical well-being. But Americans did not know this until God revealed it to them through his Prophet, Joseph Smith.

. . . . Americans eat too much meat, a non-essential in human diet, because all the proteins needed are available in . . . other foods. . . . CR1948Apr:72,73,75

[Lyle]

Insects and grubs are an excellent food source. I am not sure diet is about finding the best food sources – we humans seem to prefer what we want (or think we want) over what we need.

The Traveler

you know i hear that some people think cock roaches are good for people nutritionally..... but i keep coming back to the fact that they can live on a diet of dry-wall.

i dont have the luxurie of eating healthy. my body can no longer put away many fat reserves and i am allergic to many foods since last february. i used to eat a steady diet of very tasty and some what healthy foods. but now my diet is stricktly rice, soy and meat products. when i shop for gorceries it takes quite a long time because i have to know things about how they process the foods and where they are processed so that i do not become ill from eatting. i lost the desire to eat when this started. i no longer get hungry but i can tell when i need to eat. eating is essencial to a sober mind and now i can recognize that more than ever before. oh and by the way , i have met people who wont eat certain things because of what people tell them...... i warn you kind of people that you are depriving yourselves of something i loved so much and think is such a wonder that we in this nation have so much of it.... i call it flavor.... rice and chicken... have none. you knoow why everything tastes kinda like chicken because thats the basis for all flavors in my oppinion. there is no flavor to rice just salt or parsley.

i am not bitter i enjoy that the lord chose me to experience this. i am a good cook now my skills go to cooking more for other people than they ever did before and i get to learn how to cook interesting things for myself as well

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps chocolate covered ants?