whoknowswhat Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Joseph Smith married dozens of women & girls, some as young as 14. Most of these marriages were in secret, and many of them were to married women.Some would argue that the marriages were not conjugal, but personal statements of those involved seem to support that they were.Joseph publicly denied having more than one wife, declaring it to be lies of William Law. I don't have a problem with polygamy in general, but secret deceptive (and often coercive) practices do not seem in keeping with a prophet of God.Joseph Smith, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wives_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.This is not something that we are ever taught in the church. Sure, we know Brigham Young had 27 wives, and most of us are okay with that. But why are these facts covered up? If there are answers to the accusations, why not openly give them instead of discouraging members to even find out?
applepansy Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 I'm reading "Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Bushman. Its very enlightening and is confirming my testimony that Joseph Smith is the prophet of the Restoration. Maybe the book (which is meticulously researched) would help you resolve some of your questions? Rather that internet sources? applepansy
NeuroTypical Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 But why are these facts covered up? If there are answers to the accusations, why not openly give them instead of discouraging members to even find out?FYI, not including something in a curriculum, is not the same thing as covering it up. Common mistake. Also, please cite your source about the church discouraging members to find out about their history. Who told you the church does that?It's sort of a difficult criticism to maintain in the face of the book Applepansy mentions. Written by a Mormon, you know...
whoknowswhat Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Posted January 18, 2009 Most of the wiki is taken from Bushman's book. My point is, that people just say "oh, there must be a misunderstanding" without finding out what the actual issues are, because we are discouraged from even finding out what they are. How can we ever know what really happened if we're not even supposed to ask? The only answers I've ever received on the subject were form people that hadn't looked into it, and don't really know what the allegations are.
BenRaines Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 whoknowswhat, What is the point you wish to make? None of this is secret information. Anyone with access to the Internet can find all the accusations that have been made. Conclusion Joseph Smith was a mortal man and not perfect. That is not news to me. I look forward to a point here. Ben Raines
whoknowswhat Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Posted January 18, 2009 Also, please cite your source about the church discouraging members to find out about their history. Who told you the church does that?I cite every ward/youth leader I've ever dealt with. The church in general, perhaps not necessarily by decree from the General Authorities, discourages any contact with Anti-Mormon material. I ask, if nobody's looked into it, how can I find a counter argument from the church? Right now all I have is Joseph Smith's public statement in front of the temple (record in the History of the Church, not an outside source) where Joseph flat-out denies having plural marriages, which are documented and attested to by other faithful saints. It doesn't add up.
whoknowswhat Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Posted January 18, 2009 Conclusion Joseph Smith was a mortal man and not perfect.There's a far cry from "mortal man and not perfect" and "coercive adulterer". I'm not trying to be a troll here, I'm trying to find if there ARE any counter arguments, or if everyone has unanimously decided to get offended and defensive instead of discuss it.I look forward to a point here.My point is that I feel like the facts have been skewed or omitted for my entire life, and that nobody seems to have an answer. If there is one, I'd like to find it. If there isn't one, that's important to know too.
BenRaines Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Not offended here. Defensive, yes. This is not the first time that someone has come up with this information. Without being there we have no way to determine why things were said or why they were done. Did someone write something due to their anger over a slight by Joseph Smith, he took my money and didn't give me an important position in the church? I don't know. Were mistakes made, perhaps big mistakes? That is possible. Does proof or accusations or attacks change my testimony of the gospel truths? No. If you don't mind my asking what do you have a testimony of? Not an accusation, just wondering if there are things you do have a testimony or if it is all hinged on if Joseph Smith had more than one wife and who knew. Ben Raines
Guest tomk Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 For me, it always goes back to the witness I have of the Book of Mormon. The witness I have came from God, and I give my name to the world just as the early witnesses did.From the Introduction to the Book of Mormon:We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.) Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah. Unless you have gone through this process -- I am not sure I can enter into a discussion with you about these things, for you are severely disadvantaged, not having the same witness I do.I hope you WILL go through this process!! It will bless your life tremendously, and it will resolve these doubts in your mind once and for all!Tom
Palerider Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Joseph Smith married dozens of women & girls, some as young as 14. Most of these marriages were in secret, and many of them were to married women.Some would argue that the marriages were not conjugal, but personal statements of those involved seem to support that they were.Joseph publicly denied having more than one wife, declaring it to be lies of William Law. I don't have a problem with polygamy in general, but secret deceptive (and often coercive) practices do not seem in keeping with a prophet of God.Joseph Smith, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wives_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.This is not something that we are ever taught in the church. Sure, we know Brigham Young had 27 wives, and most of us are okay with that. But why are these facts covered up? If there are answers to the accusations, why not openly give them instead of discouraging members to even find out?I think if I was you....I would be concerned about solving my marriage problems first.....sounds to me like you have lots of issues.....thats just my opinion.... you could always read this web site.....LDS Resources
Elgama Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) I think personally its something best left between the men involved and Heavenly Father as we cannot know the full details and history- did Saul and David's adultery make them any less important to us NO, did Jonah being a prat change the fact he was a prophet NO, did Abraham abandoning a wife and child effect his ability as a patriach NO, Noah walking round his tent drunk and naked NO, Lot fathering his own grandchildren NO (he may have been raped but he also allowed his daughters to get him so drunk he didn;t notice), what about Saul/Paul assisting in the stoning of Prophets of God NO, Jacob being such a lousy father he engendered hatred amongst sons NO, Abraham and Isaac both lied to Pharoah to save their lives whilst endangering their wives,, I could go on... Like Tomk says what is important is our own witness and our own relationship with God. I personally have no issue because of the time in history of the girls being 14 less than a hundred years earlier girls as young as 8 were getting married, its unfair to look at the history of pre 1844 with 2009 eyes, especially as during that time frame some of the members of the church came from cities where their average life expectancy was around 27, for some of the poor leaving from Liverpool (the Aitkenites for example it would have been as low as 15) and we don't know how much was secret, or kept from the church members we only know what documents tell us which is never a complete story, I have read the church history and whilst we have many more reams of history on them than we do on the previous generation of patriach's etc we don;t have and never will have the full story there is no such thing as a history written without bias. None of it is kept 'secret' and was easy enough to find in a public library in North East of Scotland pre internet - the Church leaders encourage us to be well educated, someone well educated and learned and reading good books should be able to use a library. If they wanted to hide the history from us they would do what some other sects do discourage university education and encourage us only to read the Ensign, that is the last message I get from my prophets. For me the important thing is, is the Church true because Heavenly Father says so and for me the answer is Yes, is it true because Jesus Christ is at the head of it Yes and for me the talk by Henry B Eyrring in the April 2008 Conference about the True and Living Church highlights the important area of testimony for me the church is true and is of God because of the way he seals the priesthood power that I get to witness on a daily basis in my home -Charley Edited January 18, 2009 by Elgama
MsMagnolia Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 I cite every ward/youth leader I've ever dealt with. The church in general, perhaps not necessarily by decree from the General Authorities, discourages any contact with Anti-Mormon material. I ask, if nobody's looked into it, how can I find a counter argument from the church? Right now all I have is Joseph Smith's public statement in front of the temple (record in the History of the Church, not an outside source) where Joseph flat-out denies having plural marriages, which are documented and attested to by other faithful saints. It doesn't add up. whoa whoa whoa!! first of all.. there are plenty of sources out there that can give you accurate historical facts without going into "ANTI" sites. I have been a member of the church since I was 5 and I have never been discouraged from studying the history of the church, discouraged from viewing the blatently skewed anti matieral... YES, but never discouraged from the actual study of the history. In fact... I have taught seminary classes and sunday school classes that deal specifically with the History of the church.. does the teacher of the class have to say.. "ok class, here aer all the bad things people say about the church. And here are the anti sites you can go and do research on to find out how much some people hate the church" in order to not be "discouraging"? Why not go to your Father in Heaven and ask him if Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God? Why not read and ponder and study the scriptures and the words of the prophets and see what insights you find there that lead you either toward or away from the spirit? The truths of God can withstand the scrutiny of the world. *steps down from my soap box*Mags
FunkyTown Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Yep. Ben Raines is right. If you're honestly looking at this with a questioning tone, wondering the truth, there are definitely answers. The reason why people aren't paying much attention is that these sorts of attacks are very common on here and this is certainly not the first time these direct accusations were made. Can I ask if you're a member or not? There are answers either way, but the answer depends on where you're coming from.
whoknowswhat Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Posted January 18, 2009 MsMagnolia, I never said that the church discourages study of our history. I grew up in the church, attended seminary, went on a mission, got married in the temple, and have always strived to be faithful in keeping the commandments, attending church, reading my scriptures and saying my prayers. What I'm saying is that this is not included in the history we are taught. It's not a biased outside opinion, it's the historical facts. I didn't know that Joseph had multiple wives until I was on my mission, when someone threw it at me. I tried to correct him, but my companion told me I was wrong. How, in 19 years or faithful gospel study did I not come across the fact that he had dozens of wives? I'm sure the information would be available in a book at the library if I was looking for it... but if there's another side to the story, how come we don't hear it? We just don't hear anything on the topic at all. I'm not saying the church is hosting a big conspiracy, covering facts... but they are conveniently omitting any parts of the story that make us uncomfortable. Maybe there's a reason why they make us uncomfortable? Maybe there's a reason why the church chooses not to say much - because there's not much that can be said. I wasn't trying to pick a fight, though everyone here has responded with what feels like hostility and antagonism. I have come across something that has seriously jeopardized my faith, and everyone is upset at me for asking if there are legitimate answers. I am questioning the existence of God, and the validity of the experiences I have had. My wife and I both feel like we've been deluding ourselves, believing because we wanted to believe, and now we're facing all of the incongruities and problems we've noticed over the years, but chose to disregard. If the moderators want to lock this thread, go ahead. I don't think the answers I'm looking for are here.
Palerider Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 As I said in another thread....I knew Joseph had more than one wife when I was a teenager.....
pam Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Could it possibly be that you are trying to find another reason for your feelings. Perhaps to use the Church as a scapegoat per se for your own lack of faith etc.To quote you from another thread:I feel so betrayed and ignored. Partially by her (I don't think she knows how hard it is for me) but mostly by God. We received clear directions that we should get married, but now this seems like such a farce of marriage that I feel like he knowingly betrayed my trust, and led me down this path where I will never feel fulfilled. Let's blame God and blame the Church' historical facts or lack of as you say to justify my feelings right now.Sorry that's just the way I see it at the moment.
Moksha Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) Joseph publicly denied having more than one wife, declaring it to be lies of William Law. I don't have a problem with polygamy in general, but secret deceptive (and often coercive) practices do not seem in keeping with a prophet of God. While they were in Illinois, polygamy was illegal and thought to be immoral by outsiders as well, so being deceptive makes perfect sense. When you have so many people yelling for your scalp anyway, why add fuel to the fire? Joseph Smith wished to continue his ministry and being apprehended would not let him carry out the Lord's work.BTW, the study of history should never be impeded since that is how we learn from the past. Can we ever say that belief based upon altered history is genuine?. Edited January 18, 2009 by Moksha
Sergg Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Joseph Smith married dozens of women & girls, some as young as 14. Most of these marriages were in secret, and many of them were to married women.Some would argue that the marriages were not conjugal, but personal statements of those involved seem to support that they were.Joseph publicly denied having more than one wife, declaring it to be lies of William Law. I don't have a problem with polygamy in general, but secret deceptive (and often coercive) practices do not seem in keeping with a prophet of God.Joseph Smith, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wives_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.This is not something that we are ever taught in the church. Sure, we know Brigham Young had 27 wives, and most of us are okay with that. But why are these facts covered up? If there are answers to the accusations, why not openly give them instead of discouraging members to even find out?In fact, two things:1) Oliver Cowdery was unfairly excomunicated by Smith when he by the 1827's tried to stop Smith from practicing what Oliver knew* he was practicing with a young woman satying at his and Emma's place. Later on, Smith received the 'revelation' of poligamy (a revelation curiously not the same as that of D&C). It was in the manner of a threat coming from an angel of god with a sword.2) A consecuence out of Smith's practice of poligamy(even if as 'statutory'-which it was not the case for all) was that of some of the women practicing poliginy. For some of the women married to Smith by the Temple were also married at the same time. There is a tale of Pratt's own departure from the Church when he got rumors Smith was coming for his wife, then Smith recanted(Pratt was an intellectual resource); or another member of the Quorum whose girl Smith asked just to 'test' him. Bu throughout all his public life he denied this. But the 'lie' was 'justified' as being a 'not-throwing-pearls-to-pigs' .
pam Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 2) A consecuence out of Smith's practice of poligamy(even if as 'statutory'-which it was not the case for all) was that of some of the women practicing poliginy. For some of the women married to Smith by the Temple were also married at the same time. There is a tale of Pratt's own departure from the Church when he got rumors Smith was coming for his wife, then Smith recanted(Pratt was an intellectual resource); or another member of the Quorum whose girl Smith asked just to 'test' him. Bu throughout all his public life he denied this. But the 'lie' was 'justified' as being a 'not-throwing-pearls-to-pigs' .Please state your sources.
KristofferUmfrey Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 I don't believe the LDS history of Joseph having many wives. There is a saying, "Time vindicates the Prophets." DNA also seems to vindicate the Prophets... of 12 families claiming lineage from Joseph outside of Emma and her children, the 5 tested so far have shown no relation to him.
georgia2 Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 While doing research on my genealogy and researching the young woman who saved the Doctrines and Covenants (I study several things at once). I was reading her story, (cant remember her name now) but it was her own story in her on words. ANyway....... she married someone outside the church. Years later, after her husband and of course Joseph Smith had been dead a long time, she had herself sealed to Joseph Smith. Finding this incredible, I asked a genealogy expert who teaches genealogy at William & MAry what was the deal. told me that YES in fact MANY MANY women had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith AFTER he was dead. Upon further research on this I found that the sealing dates were indeed AFTER his death. SO, this explains a lot of things. This was a practice back then, but it has been stopped because all the women wanted to be sealed to the original prophets and apostles!
Sergg Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 Please state your sources.Pay attention to the sources and not to the mere opinions:Here is one good article on it (from Fairlds.org, apologetics for your Church) http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdfHere is a compendium of sources (again, read only the testimonies)http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdfLater,
Palerider Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 anyone can make a comment.....thats why we ask for sources...otherwise the post could be deleted....
KristofferUmfrey Posted January 18, 2009 Report Posted January 18, 2009 anyone can make a comment.....thats why we ask for sources...otherwise the post could be deleted....Who was he talking to?
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