Tough question 2

[applepansy]

I feel very uncomfortable that you are quoting yourself as a source instead of quoting scripture. No offense to you, Apple, but you are neither Prophet nor Apostle. It's a non-source. If you'd like, I can dig out every reference I made above and quote biblical and BoM source for God testing people. But I have never seen a single case of a Prophet asking for something which turned out to just be a test.

I know me asking for source probably offended you, but we can not preach a doctrine based on Joe the Plumbers personal experience, nor mine nor even yours Apple. We must needs preach a doctrine that is available to all.

I'm not offended at all. Let me explain what I mean with an example.

Is what happened in the CA election this past year not an example (life experience) of God testing us through a prophet? When President Monson spoke we had a choice; Follow God's law or not. To me that was a test from God through a Prophet.

When Samuel the Lamanite, Nephi, Moses, etc called the people to repentance, wasn't that a test from God. Follow God's laws as spoken by a Prophet or not? Isnt' that a test?

applepansy

[applepansy]

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. If it -was- a test, Moses wasn't let in on that secret by God.

So can't we say the same of Joseph Smith? Since we aren't privy to all his conversations with God in real time.

applepansy

[Hemidakota]

Do you think that all the writings are before us and there was never account of something like this ever happening?

Even I was tested by a prophet years ago only to validate my loyalty to the Savior. This is nothing new.

President Harold B. Lee stated noting two of the First Presidency was also tested for loyalty;

" I have that same witness about at least two members of the assistants to the Twelve, Brother Marion G. Romney and Brother Alma Sonne, for I saw it, and I know the nature of the test, and I know how they proved themselves to be the sterling men that they are. And so God has honored them, and it is my conviction that every man who will be called to a high place in this Church will have to pass these tests not devised by human hands, by which our Father numbers them as a united group of leaders willing to follow the prophets of the Living God and be loyal and true as witnesses and exemplars of the truths they teach. "

The Savior gave a test that people who are not members of the. Church might apply in their investigation of the Gospel, particularly in regard to prophets, that they might know a true prophet from a false one. It is contained in the seventh chapter of Matthew, where He said:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth-forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

By the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its membership, we may be known as God's people, and this work as His work.

The Savior tests His prophets, seers, and revelators but the Prophets tests its members.

[Just_A_Guy]

The Mormon Archives are not open to 'everybody-just-anybody'.

I've done research there, and can vouch for the authenticity of my claim that

the vast majority of these documents are accessible under the same conditions you'd find in any professionally-maintained archives.

Go there yourself, if you don't believe me.

At any rate, your original claim was that

No real documents survive on such things

This is manifestly false. Arrington and Todd Compton, among others, have found ample material with which to put together an excellent picture of 19th century Mormon marital attitudes and practices.

[FunkyTown]

I'm not offended at all. Let me explain what I mean with an example.

Is what happened in the CA election this past year not an example (life experience) of God testing us through a prophet? When President Monson spoke we had a choice; Follow God's law or not. To me that was a test from God through a Prophet.

When Samuel the Lamanite, Nephi, Moses, etc called the people to repentance, wasn't that a test from God. Follow God's laws as spoken by a Prophet or not? Isnt' that a test?

applepansy

You do raise a good point, Apple. Those may have been tests, certainly, and I'm not one to argue that. The problem is that, biblically, Prophets have never been in on the tests. They have always been tested along with the people: Noah built a boat despite the world mocking him, for instance.

I think it's a non-issue, personally, but I can see why some struggle with it. Whenever someone brings up something like this, I go to the Saviour's litmus test: "You shall know them by their fruits." Those fruits are: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance (Per Galatians 5:22-23). All those fruits I have found in myself from this church and I have found them preached by God's prophets. I have seen the Prophets have those exact things.

To me, I look towards the prophets whole life. Did something like this occur? Maybe. I don't believe it, but even if the worst case scenario did occur and the man did find himself tempted by the power and influence he wielded, that moment passed quickly. I know I would never have been able to do as well or better than Joseph, so I find it hard to judge him.

[Hemidakota]

It is your assumption based on a small quantity of writings that is being presented in today's canonized work.

[FunkyTown]

It is your assumption based on a small quantity of writings that is being presented in today's canonized work.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I will assume it was just in case:

You're correct. It is my assumption(Though feel free to prove me incorrect) based on a small quantity of writings that is being presented in today's canonized work. I am basing it upon all Canon, because that's what the Prophet has declared unto us as the truth.

Because I am not wise enough to blaze my own path, I rely upon the wisdom of the Prophets. And the Prophets have stated what our Canon is very plainly.

[applepansy]

You do raise a good point, Apple. Those may have been tests, certainly, and I'm not one to argue that. The problem is that, biblically, Prophets have never been in on the tests. They have always been tested along with the people: Noah built a boat despite the world mocking him, for instance.

I think it's a non-issue, personally, but I can see why some struggle with it. Whenever someone brings up something like this, I go to the Saviour's litmus test: "You shall know them by their fruits." Those fruits are: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance (Per Galatians 5:22-23). All those fruits I have found in myself from this church and I have found them preached by God's prophets. I have seen the Prophets have those exact things.

To me, I look towards the prophets whole life. Did something like this occur? Maybe. I don't believe it, but even if the worst case scenario did occur and the man did find himself tempted by the power and influence he wielded, that moment passed quickly. I know I would never have been able to do as well or better than Joseph, so I find it hard to judge him.

FT, I to find it hard to criticize or judge the Prophet Joseph Smith too, or later prophets of this dispensation or prior dispensations for that matter.

I believe Joseph was tested right along with the people. I don't believe he was "in on" the test before hand. How hard it must have been to ask for a man's wife knowing it would cause pain and anguish.

I think we are in agreement?

applepansy

[Hemidakota]

Are you active in the church?

[FunkyTown]

FT, I to find it hard to criticize or judge the Prophet Joseph Smith too, or later prophets of this dispensation or prior dispensations for that matter.

I believe Joseph was tested right along with the people. I don't believe he was "in on" the test before hand. How hard it must have been to ask for a man's wife knowing it would cause pain and anguish.

I think we are in agreement?

applepansy

We are in this. :)

Ultimately, I worry about threads like these because they don't have the fruits of the spirit and are usually designed solely to cause contention. I love the man, certainly. I know he was a good man. I also know there has only been one perfect man and Joseph was not him.

Ultimately, I guess my argument is this: Attacks based upon hearsay and legend should neither shake nor affirm a testimony. Either the attack is correct, in which case we know it's irrelevant because fallible men become prophets (unless it threatens the Fruits of the Spirit test the Saviour gave in Galations), or it's a lie (In which case it's irrelevant because it's simply not true).

[Hemidakota]

Because I am not wise enough to blaze my own path, I rely upon the wisdom of the Prophets. And the Prophets have stated what our Canon is very plainly.

I truly believe that is the case but canon is not complete and neither has the church stated that it is complete.

Now unless we are tried, tested, and proven, we are not His. As I already stated, I was tested for my own loyalty, through the Prophet that came from the Savior; later finding it was only a test of my loyalty in proving myself. President Lee saw the same during his tenure as an Apostle. How many more witnesses do you require in order to believe? Or perhaps, there is something here that is not being told regards your personal beliefs with prophets can tests it membership. Yes?

This is a failure for you to grapple I can see.

[FunkyTown]

Are you active in the church?

I am, Hemi. I attend Kitchener 2nd Ward in Waterloo, ON. My Bishop's name is Bishop Heap. I gave closing prayer last Sunday. Feel free to ask him about John MacDonald or simply send my photo and ask if I'm active.

PS: This is an Ad-hominem attack, irrelevant to the issue at hand. What -is- relevant is that you have made vague suggestions that you have access to hidden knowledge the rest of us don't(Your suggestion that I'm only paying attention to Canonized scripture) and then made an Ad Hominem attack when I pointed out the inconsistency in your arguments. I'm okay with that. I would be okay if you phoned my Bishop, told him I was a crazy Apostate and made me defend myself in front of a tribunal. It wouldn't shake my testimony, nor would it bother me especially since I believe the church -should- make certain those who are teaching are in line with the Prophet.

And why would this not bother me?

Because people are fallible. PS: If you want me to accept your hidden knowledge, have that hidden knowledge Canonized. If it isn't, it ain't truth.

[pam]

Let's try and remember that each of us are at different levels of understanding, spirituality, understanding, experiences and yes even testimony.

[john doe]

By this logic then God was manipulative and mean when he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son?

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Aren't prophets meant to test the people?

applepansy

I haven't read all the responses to see if this was already addressed, but Elph is atheist.

[Hemidakota]

I am, Hemi. I attend "personal information removed by moderator"

PS: This is an Ad-hominem attack, irrelevant to the issue at hand. What -is- relevant is that you have made vague suggestions that you have access to hidden knowledge the rest of us don't(Your suggestion that I'm only paying attention to Canonized scripture) and then made an Ad Hominem attack when I pointed out the inconsistency in your arguments. I'm okay with that. I would be okay if you phoned my Bishop, told him I was a crazy Apostate and made me defend myself in front of a tribunal. It wouldn't shake my testimony, nor would it bother me especially since I believe the church -should- make certain those who are teaching are in line with the Prophet.

And why would this not bother me?

Because people are fallible. PS: If you want me to accept your hidden knowledge, have that hidden knowledge Canonized. If it isn't, it ain't truth.

Your assuming too much again. I just ask for curiosity.

Edited January 19, 2009 by BenRaines
Personal name and location given

[Hemidakota]

Let's try and remember that each of us are at different levels of understanding, spirituality, understanding, experiences and yes even testimony.

A truism.

[georgia2]

While doing research on my genealogy and researching the young woman who saved the Doctrines and Covenants (I study several things at once). I was reading her story, (cant remember her name now) but it was her own story in her on words. ANyway....... she married someone outside the church. Years later, after her husband and of course Joseph Smith had been dead a long time, she had herself sealed to Joseph Smith. Finding this incredible, I asked a genealogy expert who teaches genealogy at William & MAry what was the deal. told me that YES in fact MANY MANY women had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith AFTER he was dead. Upon further research on this I found that the sealing dates were indeed AFTER his death. SO, this explains a lot of things. This was a practice back then, but it has been stopped because all the women wanted to be sealed to the original prophets and apostles!

HELLO............. hello...........

did you not read my first post?

Check out the dates! Joseph Smith was not a liar!

[Just_A_Guy]

While doing research on my genealogy and researching the young woman who saved the Doctrines and Covenants (I study several things at once). I was reading her story, (cant remember her name now) but it was her own story in her on words. ANyway....... she married someone outside the church. Years later, after her husband and of course Joseph Smith had been dead a long time, she had herself sealed to Joseph Smith. Finding this incredible, I asked a genealogy expert who teaches genealogy at William & MAry what was the deal. told me that YES in fact MANY MANY women had themselves sealed to Joseph Smith AFTER he was dead. Upon further research on this I found that the sealing dates were indeed AFTER his death. SO, this explains a lot of things. This was a practice back then, but it has been stopped because all the women wanted to be sealed to the original prophets and apostles!

You're thinking of Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner (Smith) (Young). The IGI has her sealed to Joseph Smith on January 17, 1842--most certainly during his lifetime.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

Joseph Smith married dozens of women & girls, some as young as 14. Most of these marriages were in secret, and many of them were to married women.

Some would argue that the marriages were not conjugal, but personal statements of those involved seem to support that they were.

Joseph publicly denied having more than one wife, declaring it to be lies of William Law. I don't have a problem with polygamy in general, but secret deceptive (and often coercive) practices do not seem in keeping with a prophet of God.

Joseph Smith, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wives_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

This is not something that we are ever taught in the church. Sure, we know Brigham Young had 27 wives, and most of us are okay with that. But why are these facts covered up? If there are answers to the accusations, why not openly give them instead of discouraging members to even find out?

Would someone - anyone please - provide a real list of real marriages of Joseph Smith Jr. that were consummated by him and were not proxy marriages. Please include documentation of consummation – especially for teenage girls and married women. Also of particular interest to me is if there is any indication with any possibility of validation that Joseph Smith Jr. ever had any children except through his wife Emma?

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

Would someone - anyone please - provide a real list of real marriages of Joseph Smith Jr. that were consummated by him and were not proxy marriages. Please include documentation of consummation – especially for teenage girls and married women. Also of particular interest to me is if there is any indication with any possibility of validation that Joseph Smith Jr. ever had any children except through his wife Emma?

The Traveler

It's already been cited here, but wivesofjosephsmith.org is probably the premiere site for both a list and the documentation that the marriage actually occurred.

As far as which of the marriages were consummated, here is a sum-up drawn from Compton's In Sacred Loneliness (I assume the original is fully sourced) (yes, the website itself is exmo, but he's apparently citing Compton verbatim).

Edited January 19, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Moksha]

Would someone - anyone please - provide a real list of real marriages of Joseph Smith Jr. that were consummated by him and were not proxy marriages. Please include documentation of consummation – especially for teenage girls and married women.

The Traveler

Yeah, should he not be telling us of the onlookers. Is he trying to suggest that most consummations of that era did not have witnesses?

[Palerider]

I think this thread has ran its course.....I am closing it for now.