"Immodest" Dance Outfits: Much Ado About Nothing?

[pam]

Thanks, Pam. That made my day!

Perv

[Wingnut]

Yeah, they are modest compared to others. I just pictured skirts that were a little longer and tank tops with no sleeves. The description I read was that the skirts had another 2-3 inches on them, if other schools are shorter than I guess they don't cover much.

A lot of professional cheerleaders (I don't' know about college level, but pros) don't bother wearing skirts at all. They have "butt shorts" which are hardly more than a boy-cut panty.

Pictures I've seen of other cheer squads show a tremendous amount of cleavage. It's the sex factor there.

Wait...you mean that cheerleaders are sexy? And they try to dress like it?

I don't understand you...you make comments about what if some teenagers got nude at a national monument. You mention commercials of nudity in Europe that there isnt a problem with but yet you have a problem with these uniforms?

Apparently they show too much leg.

[Fiannan]

I don't understand you...you make comments about what if some teenagers got nude at a national monument. You mention commercials of nudity in Europe that there isnt a problem with but yet you have a problem with these uniforms?

I never actually said I had a problem with those uniforms. However, in the "making a little girls dreams come true" (you linked it for people to see) you can see just about all the legs and the uniforms are a bit tight -- what would have been the reaction of people in Brigham Young's day (they have his name on their uniforms you know) if these girls had shown up to any public event in Salt Lake wearing those outfits?

My point all along is that culture, not the scriptures, determines what is okay and what isn't. Of course, the context of how people see you will determine if society sees you one way or another. If suddenly the style for men became long beards again (and they weren't associated with toughness or hippies anymore) I have no doubt we'd start seeing general authorities again sporting long beard. However in today's society people make judgements.

So that is why I say if a person is in a dance class, gymnastics, swimming, etc. and the norm is for a certain style of clothing that society today does not see as immoral (except for a few folks) then I do not see a problem. If you wear a tango or sambo style outfit to go to the mall I too would think that's extreme. There is a time and place for things and that is what I mean of context.

By the way, in regards to the BYU cheerleaders, would people here be comfortable with their 14 year old sons enlarging some of the pics and posting them on their bedroom walls?

[gabelpa]

Maybe it's just me, but for cheerleading outfits, they weren't too bad. never seen the cheerleaders in action,so I don't know what happens during their routines.

When our High School did their powderpuff football,the cheerleaders definately needed more modest outfits.

For those not in the know, powderpuff football has the girls playing football (Our girls were tackle, the opposing team.. weren't),and the boys doing the cheerleading. One guy in particular decided he was going to wear one of the girl's outfits, instead of the male yell leader outfits. Way too much leg was shown on that day. He didn't even have the decency to shave.

edit If my son (when he gets to 14) is going to put up posters of girls on his walls, I would much rather it was these BYU photos over any others I've seen. I will say, I recognise that I may be de-sensitized given what passes for pin-ups in the manufacturing breakroom where I work.

Edited February 1, 2009 by gabelpa
response to fiannan

[MarginOfError]

Thanks, Pam. That made my day!

Perv

Guilty as charged...er, uh, I mean....Shhhhh...don't tell. You'll ruin my reputation!

[rameumptom]

Fiannan, how can you say that culture and not scriptures determine what is and isn't okay? By whose standards?

Isaiah was correct when he warned of those who would call good evil, and evil good!

You seem to be trying to convince Latter-day Saints to follow culture. Is there a problem for you of those who seek to follow a living prophet, and which prophet has told them to use the Bible as a guide, and who has given guidance on modest dress, etc.

There's a big difference between sculpture made thousands of years ago, versus the nudity that occurs today. Even then, some people are not ready for the nude David, as art. None of the rest of this is art.

Even Adam and Eve were dressed by God, to hide their nakedness. So, why are you trying so hard to promote a telestial standard on a people that should be struggling for a celestial one?

[Connie]

Oh ram, you're such a prude! Don't you know it's okay for teenaged girls to wear spagetti strap dresses to prom. It's just part of the culture, let kids be kids, come on!

We aren't supposed to be striving for a Zion or celestial society and culture. I mean we live in a telestial world after all. The scriptures are very clear. We are to be in the world AND of the world.

(oops, did i wander into the realm of sarcasm again! slap my hand!)

[pam]

By the way, in regards to the BYU cheerleaders, would people here be comfortable with their 14 year old sons enlarging some of the pics and posting them on their bedroom walls?

Absolutely okay with it. At least these girls don't have their stomachs hanging out...their shoulders are covered..no cleavage showing.

Honestly with cheerleaders that represent a school owned and operated by the Church....wouldn't you think if the Church thought they were inappropriate they would have stopped these uniforms ages ago?

Oh and btw..I've just thrown my scriptures into the trash. Since it's culture that dictates things..why do I need them? Oh and watching and listening to conference to hear what our Church Leaders say about things..forget it. Obviously they aren't with the times and don't understand the culture thing.

You contradict yourself so much Fiannan. You spout off people in the Bible fishing in the nude..you talk about Isaiah preaching in the nude...you give all these examples as if it's "okay" today because prophets of old did it. Because it's in the scriptures. Oh wait..scriptures don't matter...because it's a cultural thing. I forgot.

But then you talk about what if these girls showed up during Brigham Young's time. I mean seriously..

It's not culture that dictates..it's people that dictate. We, as a society, have come down to such a level that things that should shock us...are the norm these days.

Edited February 1, 2009 by pam

[Guest ceeboo]

Seems as though this has strayed a little ( IMHO ):)

As for my 2 cents on the BYU ladies, NO problem at all ( and they are college ages as well)

My 2 cents that I offered earlier was in regards to teens ( 13-18 ) high school age and I WISH WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST FEW YEARS WAS SIMILAR TO THE BYU LADIES.

SADLY, IMHO, What I have seen at these competative dance competitions ( lyrical, jazz, hip hop, tap ) has been a far cry from the recent pics posted. I have seen these young maturing teens come on stage with 90 % of their skin showing ( sometimes skin and cleavage covered in glitter to add a little extra " attention ":eek:) Their bottoms are similar to bikini bottoms and tops are similar to a bra with a few sparkles added.

Again, I will repeat what I offered earlier. As a Dad, I do not have the answers but I remain in a very uncomfortable struggle in this regard. I am also concerned a great deal.

I must add, the seeming " ok-ness " that our society has with this and other things causes me great concern with the " bar " continuing to decline lower and lower . I am also very concerned at the the " message " we are giving to our next generation of Ladies.

Sorry, I realize that there are many different opinions on this thread but it is something that I have, do, and will continue to struggle with as my precious daughter continues her love of dance.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[pam]

I totally agree ceeboo. With everything you just said.

[Elgama]

I think thats it our children aren't just kids, mine are a daughter and son of our Heavenly Father they are not just precious to me they are precious to him too and I have been entrusted with them

Concerning the posters of BYU ladies etc - I will be discouraging posters of the opposite sex even if they are wearing a full blown bustle..... its the objectifying that is the problem as much as the clothes

-Charley

[pam]

I agree with you Elgama on the posters. Fiannan asked if we would object to a poster of the BYU cheerleaders. I would prefer no posters but...if there were to be one..a poster of the BYU cheerleaders would not bother me one bit.

[Fiannan]

Fiannan, how can you say that culture and not scriptures determine what is and isn't okay? By whose standards?

Isaiah was correct when he warned of those who would call good evil, and evil good!

You seem to be trying to convince Latter-day Saints to follow culture. Is there a problem for you of those who seek to follow a living prophet, and which prophet has told them to use the Bible as a guide, and who has given guidance on modest dress, etc.

There's a big difference between sculpture made thousands of years ago, versus the nudity that occurs today. Even then, some people are not ready for the nude David, as art. None of the rest of this is art.

Even Adam and Eve were dressed by God, to hide their nakedness. So, why are you trying so hard to promote a telestial standard on a people that should be struggling for a celestial one?

Now now, culture determines a lot in regards to what is then considered appropriate by the Church or not. The girls at BYU would be seen as much exibitionists if they were sent through a time machine to Brigham Young's day as much as a group of coeds jogging topless in Idaho would be today. And even my wife once had a bishop who told the young women in his ward that they needed to wear bras to be modest yet Emma Smith never wore one, nor did any of Brigham Young's wives -- they had not been invented yet.

And I suspect that if a woman was representing the Church in a public forum yet had hairly legs (that were extremely noticable -- I am from Oregon you know) someone in authority would make a comment even though all women prior to fairly recent history had hairy legs except for prostitutes. This is due to cultural labels that would automatically attach to her even though there is nothing at all immodest about refusing to shave. And do remember, the Book of Mormon does say not a hair on your body will be lost. Sorry gals.

How many of our Seventies are military veterans? If they are I'll bet a few have tatoos. Maybe during the Korean or Vietnam War and the 1970s a man with a tatoo was not seen the way society sees them today. I doubt they would get one today but when they were younger a tatoo did not mean the same as it might now with many people. Yet I wonder about tatoos within the Polynesian and Maori LDS communities.

Again, culture.

Now we have the Church urging men to wear white shirts to meetings and ties yet in the 1980s I blessed the sacrament many times wearing colored shirts, sweaters, and even no tie. In time this may very well evolve into a mode of dress that is associated with LDS people. Again, no ancient Hebrew, Nephite or Lamanite wore a white shirt.

I am not saying in any way that LDS people should rebel against the standards promoted by the Church -- but if one recognizes the cultural context they can at least be less likely to challenge them. However, one should not be so quick to label people in a judgemental way if they choose to dress in accordance to the dance or athletic styles that are accepted in modern western culture as long as they are not swinging around a fire pole in a g-string in public.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Fiannan

[Palerider]

Now we have the Church urging men to wear white shirts to meetings and ties yet in the 1980s I blessed the sacrament many times wearing colored shirts, sweaters, and even no tie. In time this may very well evolve into a mode of dress that is associated with LDS people. Again, no ancient Hebrew, Nephite or Lamanite wore a white shirt.

I have been a member all my life and have always been encouraged to wear a white shirt and tie when blessing and passing sacrament. Also encouraged others to do the same. All the areas I have been in ...if you did not have a tie on...you were not asked to Bless or Pass the Sacrament.

[pam]

For once can we forget about Biblical characters and the times of Brigham Young and focus on the here and now? Since I happen to live in the here and now.

Fiannan you almost make an argument...when in Rome sort of thing. Sorry that just doesn't fly with me.

[MorningStar]

Fiannan, I don't understand how you can claim to be a member sustaining the leaders of the church and contradict them on issues regarding modesty. Also, I've never heard of any girl ever getting a talking to for leg hair. Did I miss a talk about how women are supposed to shave their legs?

[Elgama]

Fiannan, I don't understand how you can claim to be a member sustaining the leaders of the church and contradict them on issues regarding modesty. Also, I've never heard of any girl ever getting a talking to for leg hair. Did I miss a talk about how women are supposed to shave their legs?

its a YW lesson, speaking from experience if you dress modestly who is gonna know lol

-Charley

[ruthiechan]

Can someone explain to me *why* their cheerleading shorts/skirts or whatever they are, have to be so short?

[MorningStar]

I can explain from a gymnastics perpsective. When you are flying through the air and someone needs to catch you, if you are wearing long/loose clothing, they are more likely to grab just the clothing, failing to catch you in the process, or they can get hurt if the clothing snags the person. Also, flowing clothing could fly in your face and block your vision. What you wear needs to be stretchy so you can move and not get in your or anyone else's way.

[john doe]

Ya know, I heard that Ezekiel used to pass the sacrament naked. How come we don't require anyone who works on the sacrament do it naked like the old timers did? That way no stray lint from a boy's white shirt has a chance to fall in the water. In fact, why don't we just require all participants in the whole meeting to be naked? That way we could just look past all the material things and finery they wight wear and look at them as who they are. We could put up small changing stations on each end of the stand on Fast Sunday so that when somebody 'bares' their testimony, they are really letting it all hang out.

[Palerider]

Ya know, I heard that Ezekiel used to pass the sacrament naked. How come we don't require anyone who works on the sacrament do it naked like the old timers did? That way no stray lint from a boy's white shirt has a chance to fall in the water. In fact, why don't we just require all participants in the whole meeting to be naked? That way we could just look past all the material things and finery they wight wear and look at them as who they are. We could put up small changing stations on each end of the stand on Fast Sunday so that when somebody 'bares' their testimony, they are really letting it all hang out.

did they not use to offer up their firstborn as a sacrifice.....lets start that again...lets go back to writing on brass plates .... Edited February 2, 2009 by Palerider

[MorningStar]

Didn't men kill other men in the Bible to get their wives? That sounds swell too .....

[john doe]

Didn't men kill other men in the Bible to get their wives? That sounds swell too .....

Why yes, yes they did. All you guys with hot wives who sunbathe naked on the roof better watch your backs..............

[MorningStar]

And didn't some guys lie and say they weren't married to their wives when they really were and then to cover up the fact they were really married to them, they actually let other guys marry them? Just so they wouldn't kill them?

[pam]

The girls at BYU would be seen as much exibitionists if they were sent through a time machine to Brigham Young's day as much as a group of coeds jogging topless in Idaho would be today

Those shameless hussys in Idaho.

And even my wife once had a bishop who told the young women in his ward that they needed to wear bras to be modest yet Emma Smith never wore one, nor did any of Brigham Young's wives -- they had not been invented yet.

Good reason why Emma Smith didn't wear one..Okay the point in this one?

Now we have the Church urging men to wear white shirts to meetings and ties yet in the 1980s I blessed the sacrament many times wearing colored shirts, sweaters, and even no tie. In time this may very well evolve into a mode of dress that is associated with LDS people. Again, no ancient Hebrew, Nephite or Lamanite wore a white shirt.

Noooooo...not white shirt and ties? Blasphemy

but if one recognizes the cultural context they can at least be less likely to challenge them

So if topless sunbathing is okay in France...because it's a "cultural" thing; that makes it okay with Church standards? Isn't that what you are saying...forget scriptures and go with culture?