Question about Excommunication of Murderers

[Jamie123]

Earlier this week, a man was released from prison, after serving 27 years of a life sentence for murdering a barmaid in 1979. DNA evidence, not available at the time of his trial has proved that he could not have possibly been the murderer. (Sean Hodgson murder conviction overturned after 27 years due to DNA evidence - Telegraph.)

But this set me thinking: If this man had been a member of the LDS church - and had been excommunicated following his conviction - what would be happening now? Would he be immediately reinstated in the church, and if so, would the church admit that it had been wrong to excommunicate him? If not, what would be the justification for not readmitting him, considering that his innocence has been proved beyond doubt?

I don't know if there are any precedents: The closest I can think of was John D. Lee, but he was never (as far as I know) formally acquitted of murder, and had been dead for nearly a century before his reinstatement.

(P.S. I should probably have posted this under General Discussion - sorry)

Edited March 20, 2009 by Jamie123

[WillowTheWhisp]

I know of someone who was convicted of something he didn't do and served a prison sentnce for it but was never excommunicated at all because the church believed he was innocent.

I know this doesn't answer your question but it just illustrates that there isn't a simple answer because every situation is different.

[Jamie123]

Thanks - my understanding is that the church automatically excommunicates murderers, but what you say suggests that in matters of guilt and innocence, it doesn't always take the same line as the civil authorities.

(I know this isn't a question which impacts on many of us - it's just something I was wondering about.)

[FunkyTown]

Earlier this week, a man was released from prison, after serving 27 years of a life sentence for murdering a barmaid in 1979. DNA evidence, not available at the time of his trial has proved that he could not have possibly been the murderer. (Sean Hodgson murder conviction overturned after 27 years due to DNA evidence - Telegraph.)

But this set me thinking: If this man had been a member of the LDS church - and had been excommunicated following his conviction - what would be happening now? Would he be immediately reinstated in the church, and if so, would the church admit that it had been wrong to excommunicate him? If not, what would be the justification for not readmitting him, considering that his innocence has been proved beyond doubt?

I don't know if there are any precedents: The closest I can think of was John D. Lee, but he was never (as far as I know) formally acquitted of murder, and had been dead for nearly a century before his reinstatement.

(P.S. I should probably have posted this under General Discussion - sorry)

Jamie? You're asking a question about something that didn't happen and then asking how the church could justify a decision they hadn't made in a situation that didn't happen to a person who wasn't a member of the church.

It sounds like you're getting worked up in your head over a scenario that might conceivably happen, but hasn't. It's really not something that any man can answer. You may as well ask, "What if the Church made a decision to excommunicate anyone who grew Bananas? How could they justify that?"

[Jamie123]

Jamie? You're asking a question about something that didn't happen and then asking how the church could justify a decision they hadn't made in a situation that didn't happen to a person who wasn't a member of the church.

It sounds like you're getting worked up in your head over a scenario that might conceivably happen, but hasn't. It's really not something that any man can answer. You may as well ask, "What if the Church made a decision to excommunicate anyone who grew Bananas? How could they justify that?"

Yep - pointless speculation is one of my many vices. Gotta stay focused and do some work!

[Hemidakota]

Earlier this week, a man was released from prison, after serving 27 years of a life sentence for murdering a barmaid in 1979. DNA evidence, not available at the time of his trial has proved that he could not have possibly been the murderer. (Sean Hodgson murder conviction overturned after 27 years due to DNA evidence - Telegraph.)

But this set me thinking: If this man had been a member of the LDS church - and had been excommunicated following his conviction - what would be happening now? Would he be immediately reinstated in the church, and if so, would the church admit that it had been wrong to excommunicate him? If not, what would be the justification for not readmitting him, considering that his innocence has been proved beyond doubt?

I don't know if there are any precedents: The closest I can think of was John D. Lee, but he was never (as far as I know) formally acquitted of murder, and had been dead for nearly a century before his reinstatement.

(P.S. I should probably have posted this under General Discussion - sorry)

It would come by fasting and prayer over this issue. What the world media may so is not what the Savior may issue to the priesthood leadership and neither will the leadership follow what is being told. If he was innocent, he would not been excommunicated as Willow mentioned.

[NeuroTypical]

Would he be immediately reinstated in the church

Of course not. The church does not ever force membership on someone without their say - it's a voluntary organization. The first question would be along the lines of "does this guy want to be a member". If he does, I'm sure there'd be a path he could take to bring him there.

would the church admit that it had been wrong to excommunicate him?

Perhaps his church leaders would apologize to him. If you were thinking about the church holding a news conference or making some sort of public apology, I don't think that would happen.

LM

[Jamie123]

It would come by fasting and prayer over this issue. What the world media may so is not what the Savior may issue to the priesthood leadership and neither will the leadership follow what is being told. If he was innocent, he would not been excommunicated as Willow mentioned.

Your assumption is that God would never allow an innocent man to be excommunicated. As a non-Mormon who doesn't believe in the inerrancy of church leaders (including those of my own church) it's something I find difficult to internalize. I've always accepted that God does (for whatever reason) allow bad things to happen, including bad ecclesiastical decisions.

I'm not criticizing or saying you're wrong. We just have a difference of world-views.

[Jamie123]

Of course not. The church does not ever force membership on someone without their say - it's a voluntary organization.

That makes a lot of sense, but I can't help thinking about John D. Lee who was already dead when he was reinstated.

[Hemidakota]

Your assumption is that God would never allow an innocent man to be excommunicated. As a non-Mormon who doesn't believe in the inerrancy of church leaders (including those of my own church) it's something I find difficult to internalize. I've always accepted that God does (for whatever reason) allow bad things to happen, including bad ecclesiastical decisions.

I'm not criticizing or saying you're wrong. We just have a difference of world-views.

I was referring to Church Members only and not of the world. Through the Spirit, HE would inform HIS will with the leadership on what to do. A good case in point, when Orange County went defunct due to junk bonds failure, my relative, serving as a Stake President was release from his calling since he was the head of the county finances. The church knew of his innocence but it was to protect the church from retribution and his position within the church.

Yes! GOD's allows agency for humanity up to a certain point.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW, it is possible to reinstate an excommunicated member posthumously. I believe this happened in the case of Helmuth Hubener--his local leaders excommunicated him after the Nazis threw him in jail; and after Hubener died in a Nazi prison Salt Lake found out what had happened and eventually reinstated him.

[Jamie123]

Yes! GOD's allows agency for humanity up to a certain point.

I agree, but of course not all "bad things" are the results of improperly-used agency. There are the victims of disease, freak accidents and natural disasters. Even Sean Hodgson was a victim of circumstance and imprecise information - not of any any malice of the people who imprisoned him.

FWIW, it is possible to reinstate an excommunicated member posthumously. I believe this happened in the case of Helmuth Hubener--his local leaders excommunicated him after the Nazis threw him in jail; and after Hubener died in a Nazi prison Salt Lake found out what had happened and eventually reinstated him.

That's very interesting - presumably church leaders at the time did not yet know that the Nazis were evil, and were not totally beyond worldly deception.

[Just_A_Guy]

That's very interesting - presumably church leaders at the time did not yet know that the Nazis were evil, and were not totally beyond worldly deception.

I'm not terribly well-versed in the affair; but my understanding is they weren't naive so much as just scared spitless of what would happen if they didn't distance themselves from him.

[Hemidakota]

I agree, but of course not all "bad things" are the results of improperly-used agency. There are the victims of disease, freak accidents and natural disasters. Even Sean Hodgson was a victim of circumstance and imprecise information - not of any any malice of the people who imprisoned him.

Ok! Are we talking about murderers or not?

That's very interesting - presumably church leaders at the time did not yet know that the Nazis were evil, and were not totally beyond worldly deception

Your last statement is not correct.

[MarginOfError]

I'm not in a position to speak for the Church, so don't take this too seriously...

I would just add that one of the reasons the Church reserves for disciplinary action, including excommunication, is to "preserve the good name of the Church." If a member were convicted of murder, the Church may excommunicate him for the sake of preserving the good name of the Church, i.e., not keeping a convicted murderer on the records. If later evidence were to clear that member's name, I imagine priesthood leaders would be more than willing to have a discussion with the man about whether he wanted his membership reinstated. If such were the case, I wouldn't be surprised if the process of reinstating him were fairly quick.

Again, this is all speculative on my part. What I do know is that the disciplinary councils held by the Church are taken very seriously and the results are usually determined on an individual basis. The Church doesn't enforce strict rules on local leaders on the outcomes of these councils.

Also, if such a scenario were to arise, you would never hear about it from the Church. The Church maintains the proceedings of these conferences in the highest confidentiality, and only in very rare circumstances would they publicly release any action taken. Personally, I am unaware of any instance in recent history when any details have been released by the Church (although there probably are a couple of instances). Usually, if these proceedings are made public, it is done so by the individual and not by the Church.

[Jamie123]

Ok! Are we talking about murderers or not?

Actually I was talking about people being found guilty of murder when they were actually innocent. But I take your point - none of it would have happened at all if someone else hadn't murdered the girl.

Your last statement is not correct.

Yes - I think Just-a-Guy just came up with a better answer.

[Hemidakota]

I don't believe his answer was not fully quantifiable either. They simple knew what was coming. Never underestimate the First Presidency knowledge in foreseeing the future events. Most of it will never reach the pulpit at General Conference as some members would like to think. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

To be clear, I was talking about the local leadership as being responsible for the excommunication; not general authorities and certainly not the First Presidency.

[Hemidakota]

Then I apologize.

[Just_A_Guy]

No need, Hemi. :)

[NeuroTypical]

Loudmouth_Mormon

The church does not ever force membership on someone without their say - it's a voluntary organization.

That makes a lot of sense, but I can't help thinking about John D. Lee who was already dead when he was reinstated.

There's a difference between saving ordinances and earthly membership in a church. When you're alive, you pick whether or not you wish to be a member. After you're dead, we'll do the earthly saving ordinances for you, and you can choose to avail yourselves of them or not, if it's a choice you can make. Nobody is forced to be LDS on either side of the grave.

LM

[Jim108]

This is a good example of why religion (any) is not needed to be saved. God knows what happened and he will be judged fairly. The true Church consist of those whoe believe in Jesus. LDS, Catholic, Baptist, Jews (yes Jews), Muslims and any other group you can think of are all part of Christ's Church but only for those members who believe. Religion is just mans leagalization of his relationship with God. Believe in Jesus with all your heart and you give your life over to Him. His will be done through you. God Bless, Jim

[PastorBob]

This is a good example of why religion (any) is not needed to be saved. God knows what happened and he will be judged fairly. The true Church consist of those whoe believe in Jesus. LDS, Catholic, Baptist, Jews (yes Jews), Muslims and any other group you can think of are all part of Christ's Church but only for those members who believe. Religion is just mans leagalization of his relationship with God. Believe in Jesus with all your heart and you give your life over to Him. His will be done through you. God Bless, Jim

Agreed.

[JohnnyRudick]

This is a good example of why religion (any) is not needed to be saved. God knows what happened and he will be judged fairly. The true Church consist of those whoe believe in Jesus. LDS, Catholic, Baptist, Jews (yes Jews), Muslims and any other group you can think of are all part of Christ's Church but only for those members who believe. Religion is just mans leagalization of his relationship with God. Believe in Jesus with all your heart and you give your life over to Him. His will be done through you. God Bless, Jim

I wrote a little about this in another thread about how through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we are saved through Faith in Jesus having faith in His Atoning Sacrifice for all who will believe on Him and what He has made possible for us.

All mankind will to one extent or another take part in this Sacrifice of our Great High Priest.

Somme to Everlasting Life others to Everlasting Destruction. Take your pick.

You are right Jim, as far as it goes you are right that is.

Once you are "Saved" will you stay under the Dispensation God gave to Paul, or will you move on into the Dispensation delivered to Joseph Smith?

In order to grow in the gospel you must do so in the right dispensation or you will stay in your "saved" condition with no growth opportunities.

Now for us Saved Mormons

We have a responsibility to grow in our salvation.

This is what Paul is talking about here.

He is not talking about "getting saved".

He is looking forward into this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.

He is talking about you and I, baptized Mormons, what we do once we have salvation.

We must grow in the gospel for Eternal rewards.

The quality of our works as saved individuals will determine our level of exaltation.

Salvation is Free because of the atonement.

But then

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye

are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than

that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for

the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;

and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built

thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall

suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,

and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him

shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye

are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among

you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that

he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness

with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own

craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of

the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all

things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the

world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come;

all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

[Jim108]

I wrote a little about this in another thread about how through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we are saved through Faith in Jesus having faith in His Atoning Sacrifice for all who will believe on Him and what He has made possible for us.

All mankind will to one extent or another take part in this Sacrifice of our Great High Priest.

Somme to Everlasting Life others to Everlasting Destruction. Take your pick.

You are right Jim, as far as it goes you are right that is.

Once you are "Saved" will you stay under the Dispensation God gave to Paul, or will you move on into the Dispensation delivered to Joseph Smith?

In order to grow in the gospel you must do so in the right dispensation or you will stay in your "saved" condition with no growth opportunities.

Now for us Saved Mormons

We have a responsibility to grow in our salvation.

This is what Paul is talking about here.

He is not talking about "getting saved".

He is looking forward into this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.

He is talking about you and I, baptized Mormons, what we do once we have salvation.

We must grow in the gospel for Eternal rewards.

The quality of our works as saved individuals will determine our level of exaltation.

Salvation is Free because of the atonement.

But then

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye

are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given

unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and

another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he

buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than

that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation

gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for

the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;

and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built

thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall

suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,

and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him

shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye

are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among

you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that

he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness

with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own

craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of

the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all

things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the

world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come;

all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the

ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a

man be found faithful.

"We must grow in the gospel for Eternal rewards.

The quality of our works as saved individuals will determine our level of exaltation."

When you are born again and your life belongs to Jesus you are saved by Grace and Grace alone. Works are done because your spirit leads you to do them. There is no reward for works. We do works not for gain but because God want us to do them. We do not keep score and we do not boast, we don't talk about it and we don't even remember most of them. In my belief there is no exaltation. My sole perpose is to serve God. I am His servant and I am glad to do it. God Bless, Jim

Edited March 23, 2009 by Jim108