Need Help

[Hemidakota]

I wasn't originally going to entertain the idea until my sister "They Call Me Mom" posted for me.

The BOM is not the most historically accurate, it is the most mythologically reasonable... it plugs in, but does not have any evidence. Also in the Bible it is taught of a false prophet, and to beware of him... I guess that's out the window!

I have every reason to question the BOM and the LDS teachings because I have people telling me it is true and trying to convert me. How are my questions not relevant? The credibility has not been confirmed, and the noncredibility of your Prophet's actions in his child-/young-adulthood have not been justified... AGAIN, the fact of the matter is it is being presented as truth with nothing to back it up. I need something concrete with believable origins... I have not received anything as of yet. That is my intention. Until I am completely and reasonably convinced I will stick to what I know to really make sense and has historical and scientific basis... You probably don't care, but you should at least understand my intent...

Actually, the BOM is more accurate in record keeping with chronological dating than the Bible. That my friend is given if you read the material....

And you are right, there are many false preachers, false prophets, and those who will claim they know GOD. What I can say, for those who go about in claiming this unfruitful attempt, GOD will say, "I DON'T KNOW THEE!".

Being a former Catholic, I can attest one thing about this church, it doesn't ask you to believe on the word that is given from the pulpit, but would have you ask GOD HIMSELF, whether this is right or wrong. You are not going to find that in any given religion and receive that answer from the Godhead personally.

If you are truly searching for the truth, as I did over 30-years ago, it does start with a desire and an open mind. Prove out Moroni words, whether or not that this church is truly HIS and HIS only. Prove out Moroni words in asking GOD, through HIS beloved Son, Jesus the Christ, whether or not that Joseph Smith was HIS chosen prophet in these last days. If you do have that faith liken to the former brethren [Paul, Alma, Moses, Enoch, Joseph...] and seeking with real intent, I can attest He will answer it.

There is nothing in this world is of great worth than a personal answer from GOD.

[talisyn]

Uh hi everybody.

Here is why, sis....

Because regardless of other beliefs, one of my concerns is the Bible VS the LDS teachings. Show me where in the Bible it specifically says that we existed before coming to Earth. Show me where in the Bible it specifically says that God was once a man. Show me specifically, besides in your heart of hearts, the evidence [not proof - evidence] of cultures such as that of the Nephites of the Lamanites. And didn't part of Joseph Smith's divine translation really translate into part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead? I believe it did...

I have very different religious views than that of my family and most of the modern Western world. I don't think there is one true church. There can't be. The Muslims believe they're right, and the believe it with all their heart, as do the "normal" Christians, and the Jews... People pick their beliefs based on what they feel in their heart, and what is right for them, and it is not always the same for everybody. There are so many things wrong historically and theologically [in regards to the Bible] with the LDS faith I have a considerably difficult time reconciling any of it. And by the way a "testimony" and a "witness" are not good enough... You've GOT to take in everyone else's beliefs, and put yourself in a position with those beliefs and as a potential convert. How would you feel, given what you always "knew" about your religion?? =\

And uh.. her sister is not going to get baptized.

Hello. I don't think we got off on the right foot....

I have to admit there is a lot to be said for coming out swinging, but this really isn't the place. Someplace you might try however is Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board . I don't think there's nothing they like more than a good argument

Meanwhile, welcome to the site. I hope you look around a bit and find stuff you like. I recommend the joke thread. It was 96 pages of really funny stuff (mostly thanks to Pam). Have a good day!

[MobyMule]

That was some fun reading

[john doe]

I haven't been paying attention to this thread, but it looks like everyone needs to cool off. Let's try to keep it nice in here.

[NeuroTypical]

Quick question: Let's say tomorrow, non-LDS archaeologists discovered the sword of Laban, the city of Zarahemla, Nephite and Lamanite gravesites, and buildings with 'reformed Egyptian' carved into their walls. If that happened, would you repent your words and seek to be baptized into the Mormon church?

No I would not because such things do not exist.

Can't really discuss anything further - your mind is self-concluded, and it will remain so until you chose otherwise.

I'll just accept that you mean well, in your own way, and leave you to yourself.

LM

[bytebear]

I think if we are going to discuss specifics, we shoudl stick to one topic, until it is agreed to be clarified, and not jump around. I could start quoting Bible prophecies about the last days, and show how they have been fulfilled through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I really don't know that they would be convincing unless one has an open mind about such things.

i will say, I am glad you are sticking around. Can you think of one specific issue and we can discuss that, or start a thread on each issue separately, and then it will be easier to clarify.

Edited April 16, 2009 by bytebear

[rameumptom]

SMitchell88, you stated: ...I meant Moses never actually SAW God. He saw a big flame in a burning bush, the presence of God. If God is a flame why don't we relate him to Hapheastus? Or Brighid? I don't know where you guys learned your English [or Old English] and maybe mine is different but last I checked the flame and the actual "personage," as is used a lot, are two different things.

The Bible actually states that Moses saw God: "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" (Ex 33:11)

Jacob also saw God: "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Gen 32:30).

I think it is VERY clear that they saw more than just a burning bush. I would encourage you to rethink some of your deepest convictions on these things. I have studied these for over 30 years, and have found the answers to your questions many times. And, no, we do not worship Greek nor Roman gods. We worship the God of Israel, even the one he saw face to face.

Moses warned his people of falling away, because of the false gods. "And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell" (Deut 4:28). Essentially, the true God DOES see, hear, eat and smell. And we see this time and again in the scriptures. God speaks to prophets. Moses and Jacob see him face to face. Stephen sees Jesus on the right hand of God. Many other prophets and apostles see God sitting on his throne, including Isaiah, John, Ezekiel, and others. We are made in HIS image, which means he has a physical body, OR it means we cannot believe what the Bible actually tells us time and time and time again about God.

Edited April 16, 2009 by rameumptom

[smitchell88]

I do mean well and I must defend myself here... some of you have responded to my tone, but like I mentioned I detected sarcasm in posts regarding my questions before I even got here.. Hm. Maybe I've got a different attitude that you're not used to and you think it's vindictive and cynical but it's not. =\

There are many things I cannot believe and do not understand. If you have a builder who is not honest in his construction work I would not be keen on going inside the building. A lot of Christian beliefs do not apply to me anymore, but there are several things that I have learned about the LDS faith that contradict what I learned growing up as a Roman Catholic.

When you guys talk about God and Jesus Christ and how they love us and all that stuff that EVERY Christian talks about.... it sounds really nice and consistent with traditional Christian beliefs. But then you get down to the specifics, like how the LDS faith was founded, the history of it, the history of its founder, humans as alien residents on Earth, being literal children of god... Take your pick. I know that's why you think you guys are unique and correct and everything, but there are also things in the Bible that warn of false teachings. How can you win a war in several against one? It's every confusing - again - I do have to justify my beliefs and assessments sometimes but I am not asking anyone to jump on the bandwagon with me. There have been a very few of you have told me it's the Holy Spirit and that you just believe it, but there are several more who tell me it's fact and true and I don't understand why, yet.

FYI I didn't come on here to get answers just from you guys. My husband and I have been meeting with local missionaries and have been invited to recreational activities, although we're not keen on service... don't think I'm a fluke, either. These are serious questions.

[prospectmom]

You know you can learn alot from the resourses link at the top.... Mabey you need to study more to better understand...... No disrespect intended just sometimes being told this and that from alot of different folks can give you a headache.... the written word dosen't always get read as it is intended and folks do not always express themselves properly..... You can fins all the answers you seek by going to these sites then ... if you want to talk you might get a better feel of it all...... Just a suggestion as I know how frustrating it can be... Wishing you the best and this is not an attack I just wonder why you are not keen on the service thing???? Blessings...... Terry

[rameumptom]

SMitchell88, keep asking your questions. I'll keep trying to answer them, as I've done so far. My intent is not to insult, but to share what the scriptures teach. So far, I think my posts have done a decent job in disspelling your views and questions. Let me know if I'm wrong, as you haven't yet responded to any of them yet. I've used several Bible scriptures. I'd like to see you support your theories that the LDS church is wrong with Bible scriptures, as well, please.

Your opinion is a good thing. Nothing wrong with it. But it is one thing to say, "it is my opinion that the LDS Church is a crock", and another thing to say it contradicts the Bible, without giving any backup proof.

Many Bible scholars are now seeing that early Jews and Christians did believe in the premortal existence of the human spirit. They believed in a divine council, headed up by God the Father, with Jesus as a premier Son and disciple of God. (for example, see Margaret Barker's the Great Angel).

Job 38 tells us:

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So, before the foundations of the earth were formed, there were the sons of God shouting for joy. Many Bible scholars now believe these morning stars and sons of God were the divine council or children of God in the pre-earth realm.

I literally could go on for hours, sharing ideas that tie into this and the temple endowment. It is all a theophany: entering into God's presence and having all things revealed. We see this in Isaiah 6, the book of Revelation is a theophany, so is the vision of the Tree of Life that Nephi has.

In 1 Nephi 1, Lehi has a vision of the throne of God. Christ and his apostles descend. He is given a book that he reads, and then prophecies. This happens to Isaiah, also, in the Ascension of Isaiah, an ancient Jewish/Christian writing. Joseph Smith did not have access to that book in his time. But the pattern of theophanies repeats itself in many ancient non-Bible books that Joseph had no access to. And we find the same events occurring in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Moses, and the Book of Abraham. Isaiah's theophany in Isaiah 6, is an example of the ancient divine council, with Isaiah representative of Jesus himself. We learn this in Abraham 3, where a very similar event happens. And while most Bible scholars do not recognize the book of Abraham, they will tell you that the theophanies within LDS writings fit in perfectly with the ancient Jewish/Christian world.

[bytebear]

"humans as alien residents on Earth." That's just silly. It's like telling a Catholic that they are cannibals because they "eat the flesh of Jesus." Do you not see how this distortion of belief is offensive?

[Islander]

I do mean well and I must defend myself here... some of you have responded to my tone, but like I mentioned I detected sarcasm in posts regarding my questions before I even got here.. Hm. Maybe I've got a different attitude that you're not used to and you think it's vindictive and cynical but it's not. =\

There are many things I cannot believe and do not understand. If you have a builder who is not honest in his construction work I would not be keen on going inside the building. A lot of Christian beliefs do not apply to me anymore, but there are several things that I have learned about the LDS faith that contradict what I learned growing up as a Roman Catholic.

When you guys talk about God and Jesus Christ and how they love us and all that stuff that EVERY Christian talks about.... it sounds really nice and consistent with traditional Christian beliefs. But then you get down to the specifics, like how the LDS faith was founded, the history of it, the history of its founder, humans as alien residents on Earth, being literal children of god... Take your pick. I know that's why you think you guys are unique and correct and everything, but there are also things in the Bible that warn of false teachings. How can you win a war in several against one? It's every confusing - again - I do have to justify my beliefs and assessments sometimes but I am not asking anyone to jump on the bandwagon with me. There have been a very few of you have told me it's the Holy Spirit and that you just believe it, but there are several more who tell me it's fact and true and I don't understand why, yet.

FYI I didn't come on here to get answers just from you guys. My husband and I have been meeting with local missionaries and have been invited to recreational activities, although we're not keen on service... don't think I'm a fluke, either. These are serious questions.

I appreciate your candor here. You must acknowledge that the response you received was a logical reaction to what some in the forum perceived as ill-intended, condescending and misinformed comments made by you. Since you appear willing to engage on a more civil tone/exchange I guess we can put that initial misstep behind.

That aside, if you truly want to engage in solid inquiry and research of what the LDS church, membership and theology is all about you HAVE to be willing to assume a more inquisitive model and less judgmental approach:

1. "Old knowledge" is the most significant barrier to discovery and new insights: What you think you know provide an emotional platform of certainty from which to observe, judge and assess the world around you. Realize you have quite an investment behind such construct and accepting that you may have been mistaken and built quite of your worldview and actions behind such a faulty foundation is quite difficult to deal with. The emotional barrier here can be much higher than the intellectual one. Imagine how difficult it is for some to say "I am sorry, I was wrong" and really mean it? It may be hard for you toa ccept that what you think you know is nothing more than tacit acceptance of traditions you have been taught or inherited and not true scripture knowledge or conviction.

2. Contrary to what you have been taught, you will NEVER really, truly come to understand spiritual things from a purely intellectual standpoint: You must be willing to accept that the word of God and the principles of the gospel are ONLY fully comprehensible from a spiritual standpoint AFTER sufficient faith is developed. You must study a principle, ponder it in your mind, have a fervent desire to understand it (faith) and then seek God thru the Spirit to reveal to you the soundness, truthfulness and meaning of it.

Like many here, I am also a convert. I dare not bother you with the details but I arrived to this conclusions on my own after years of searching and on account of my life being in mortal danger several times. It was my spiritual search that led me here. By then, and I say this with all the humility I can muster, I knew more about the Gospel, history and scripture than the missionaries that came to my door and many other life-long LDS in my congregation.

I hope your desire to know is genuine. All tuth belongs to God and it is independent of man. Seek to receive from HIM an answer to your questions after you have studied those things that you seek to understand. He can not lie for He would cease to be God.

[Madriglace]

I have been watching this thread with great interest ... and I really have sympathy for your questions and can see how sometimes we LDS who have a strong testimony may sound a bit dippy to a non-member by just saying that we know or that we just believe. For some of us it really works that way. My suggestion ... with all due respect ... would be if you have not read the BofM cover to cover ... do so. Aside from being scripture it's a great read with everything one could want in a great book. After you have read it ... like was said a few posts back ... prove the Lord. He doesn't expect you to just believe blindly He gives you the opportunity to prove Him. Put everything else aside and prove that the book is true .. and if you do what He asks the way He asks you will have your answer and the rest will fall into place.

As for proof of Nephites and Lamenites ... well ... maybe the names are not known that way now in the world but if you look at the history of the Americas it all falls in line. The Anasazi of AZ just kind of dissapeared .. they can't say why ... no reason has ever been established. I have seen their ruins. But we know from the BofM that the Nephites were wiped out. The cliff dwellings of AZ & NM suggest to me that someone was running scared and hiding ... if you don't know where to look you cannot see these ruins. I have been to Mexico and seen a stone that is carved in what is so obviously Lehi's Tree of Life Dream, I have been to Peru and seen what is very obviously a baptismal font in the ruin of a huge city. I have seen the tree of Life on a hill on the ocean in Peru ... I have heard the stories from the natives of a white God with blue eyes and light hair who came and promised to come back ... which was the cause of alot of heart ache as they welcomed the early conquerors. To me it is a matter of looking at the evidence from the stand point of the BofM and not what the scholoars "think" or "speculate" happened.

All this is interesting to speculate on but when it comes right down to it unless you have the witness of the Holy Ghost all you have are questions. But questions are good it shows your mind is open and at some point the answer will come along that will be just right and touch your heart. My folks tell the story of a sister in Peru who had had the lesson 9 times and when they were able to teach her she said it had never been so clear. It wasn't them but the Spirit knowing her heart was ready. The Savior is pleased with your search.

[smitchell88]

"humans as alien residents on Earth." That's just silly. It's like telling a Catholic that they are cannibals because they "eat the flesh of Jesus." Do you not see how this distortion of belief is offensive?

Lol.... I didn't mean it disrespectfully but if you take the term literally, and I have mentioned it in earlier posts, having lived natively on another planet makes us alien to Planet Earth. It's funny you mention the Catholic thing because I've said it to my mom before because that's who I view it... People sometimes fail to see the negative of what they believe and unfortunately the Catholics literally believe they are consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus which IS cannibalistic and I don't prefer it...

[bytebear]

Lol.... I didn't mean it disrespectfully but if you take the term literally, and I have mentioned it in earlier posts, having lived natively on another planet makes us alien to Planet Earth. It's funny you mention the Catholic thing because I've said it to my mom before because that's who I view it... People sometimes fail to see the negative of what they believe and unfortunately the Catholics literally believe they are consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus which IS cannibalistic and I don't prefer it...

I can see your logic, but doesn't that make us all potential aliens in heaven? Isn't heaven, or the spirit world another planet? Well, my answer is not really. We weren't spirits of God on another planet, but in another plane of existence. and we will be so after we die. I assume you believe we have a spirit which separates from our body at death. We simply believe that spirit is eternal and existed before we were born as well. We did not start our journey at birth. And there is plenty of Biblical evidence of such a conclusion. here are some verse to consider:

Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh.

Job 38: 7 all the sons of God shouted for joy.

Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.

Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him.

John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind.

Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits.

Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate.

Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon.

[smitchell88]

I understand that and no it would not potentially make us aliens to Heaven because that's where we're from in the first place, according to your doctrine. Right? It's hard to be a foreigner in your own country.

The verses you give me could have several meanings. It is my belief that the Bible was not meant to be taken literally. I have a problem with Romans 8:29... if we are predestinated then we have no free will. Take jail as an example. No matter what the reason for your trial, if the judge decides you are going to jail, there is nothing you can do about it, no? The rest I can accept, but my belief is that they could have more than one meaning and interpretation.

[Islander]

I understand that and no it would not potentially make us aliens to Heaven because that's where we're from in the first place, according to your doctrine. Right? It's hard to be a foreigner in your own country.

The verses you give me could have several meanings. It is my belief that the Bible was not meant to be taken literally. I have a problem with Romans 8:29... if we are predestinated then we have no free will. Take jail as an example. No matter what the reason for your trial, if the judge decides you are going to jail, there is nothing you can do about it, no? The rest I can accept, but my belief is that they could have more than one meaning and interpretation.

I can see you trying to understand but your example here is a bit flawed.

By the time you stand before the judge you have surrendered your freedom and free will thru your actions. You acted as a free agent and your behavior was illegal and you knew it. The judge will now assert his authority and impose the penalty, which is the consequence of your behavior/free will.

We speak of predetermination in the sense that God knows what we are going to do. Regardless of the choice it is part of His plan. The task at hand is to seek congruency with Him. To seek to understand the point of convergence of His will/our purpose as to maximize our potential and fullfil our measure in the creation.

[smitchell88]

If it is part of a plan then it is not a choice, although I see your point. You can choose to be part of the plan but after that, within the plan, your will is not free. It was explained to me by the missionaries that God put us on Earth so that we can experience mortal life, and it's like a marathon and everyone is trying to get to the end of it, except the lazy audience. Then I feel like a chewtoy. I don't like being subjected to such things, and that is one reason why I object to premortal existence. Not just because I don't see it in the Bible, but because to me it is senseless. I can comprehend a person being on Earth and having to find their way TO God, but I can't comprehend why a person would have to find their way BACK when it would be easier and more sensible to just leave us there... And please don't give me "There are some things we will never understand" lol

[Islander]

If it is part of a plan then it is not a choice, although I see your point. You can choose to be part of the plan but after that, within the plan, your will is not free. It was explained to me by the missionaries that God put us on Earth so that we can experience mortal life, and it's like a marathon and everyone is trying to get to the end of it, except the lazy audience. Then I feel like a chewtoy. I don't like being subjected to such things, and that is one reason why I object to premortal existence. Not just because I don't see it in the Bible, but because to me it is senseless. I can comprehend a person being on Earth and having to find their way TO God, but I can't comprehend why a person would have to find their way BACK when it would be easier and more sensible to just leave us there... And please don't give me "There are some things we will never understand" lol

What I hear is an argument very similar to one that took place a long time ago in heaven.

You are human, a child of God, created in His image with a purpose, offered a choice and agreeing to carry on your side of the bargain in orer to receive a reward. Somewhere along the line you begin to question the deal. You started thinking it is not fair, you don't like the deal, you wish the terms could be renegotiated. Sounds funny?

Imagine I start raving about gravity. it is a nuance!!! Sucks to be dragging my feet and stumbling every so often. Gravity keeps me "glued" to the ground when the view from the air is much more awesome. Ah, if I were a falcon. The air is cleaner and there is no gridlock on the freeway. Besides, I could construct my own house on a tree and it would take me just effort, all natural and freely available construction materials and not a 30 year mortgage. Free to roam the skies, to come and go as I please worrying only about my family.

Well...but I am human, one of the sons of God and willing participant in His creative plan, destined to partake of immortality and exaltation. To be given a gold crown and garment made in heaven with a name on my forehead that only HIM that gave it to me knoweth. To sit in His throne and inherit His kingdom. That is our destiny.

You should question why you want to draw away from your Heavenly Father? Why is it that your life as you see it fit to live appeals to you more than the one He has in store for you? Why is it that your desire to please yourself, to do and act without regard or restrain from the word of God is so attractive to you? I would start there.

[Guest]

TIME OUT!!!

Where's the mod?

Okay, I'm an ex-super-devout-Catholic, now a Mormon for about 7 years...

Guys, hammering somebody with LOGICAL DEBATE on the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Godhead, anything is only going to confuse "the sister" and drive her farther away (I'm sorry, I didn't bother to read every single line of the thread to find your real name because it was getting too argumentative).

She is not ready. She is looking for proof. She is basing her questions on what she knows to be true.

This is not a discussion that you can do like a history class or something. You can't take apart the Bible or the Book of Mormon word-for-word looking for PROOF that God was man or that you can actually fit a pair of every single animal in Noah's ark or some such!

This is something that "the sister" will have to learn for herself with the help of the SPIRIT. You guys tried to provide some guidance but she is not ready for that.

TRUST ME... I've had ALL THESE QUESTIONS before. And I'm a very logical type of person entrenched in history and genealogy and science.

I went through at least 7 sets of missionary discussions and it just made me go farther away from LDS. If you really want to know why I'm an LDS now, send me a PM and I will bear my testimony.

I will not bear testimony unless you are ready to hear it. Because, it will only drive you farther away.

Good luck.

Edited April 17, 2009 by anatess

[john doe]

I agree. You can argue logic all day long, but it is no substitute for the confirmations of the Spirit.

[pam]

Closed-mindedness would mean that I would not be asking questions at all but instead would be blatantly telling you that you are blatantly wrong, which I have not been doing

Okay let me show a couple of examples:

If you cannot see that what you believe does not match up with the rest of the teachings, then I am sorry for you.

Bottom line. He lied about many things and even went to court for it [for being a "disorderly person and an impostor" by a court in nearby Bainbridge]. He used a seer's stone to find the tablets, and before the tablets he was paid as an unsuccessful treasure hunter... He made up God telling him something so that he could have more than one wife and get away with it. That shows his character. Why would you want to follow somebody like that?

If you cannot take the character and morals of your first Prophet and see that it is not good, then I truly feel sorry for you.

But you cannot call yourself the one true church, because you are not, and you cannot tell everyone in the world that you have the truth, because you do not

I see I am the only one with common sense and logic.

Besides your faith, there is no credibility or evidence for what you believe. It is all very convenient the things that "plug in" and make sense when you compare them to the Bible.

That's pretty blatant to me that you are telling us we are wrong.

[BenRaines]

"Site Rules

1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachers, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere."

My comments:

If you have a personal belief regarding your faith you are welcome to share it. You are not welcome to come here and attack LDS faith.

While history and the slants on history can be found in many places. We like our version not the anti-LDS version. Please refrain from attacking our beliefs and our leaders both dead and living.

Warmest regards,

Ben Raines